My recommendation for a shooter's first cap & ball sixgun

[Bottom Dealin Mike, SASS #22273]

The question I'm asked most frequently is, "As a new shooter, which cap and ball revolver should I buy?"

 

This video is my response.

 

https://www.full30.com/video/785d2d88398770b77f47c7b0310cbf81

 

[Pit Bull Tex]

You Did good again Mike.

[Del Rio Pete]

Always enjoy your videos.

Watch them over and over again.

Keep it up!

[Al OVERA, SASS#26238 Life]

Good video, but, like any personal opinion, biased to ones personal taste. I have found that the Remington frame pistol is much less trouble to get into. No barrel gap spacing to worry about, no wedge pin to lose or improperly seat,no complex disassembly, among other considerations. The Remington is a stronger frame, without the peened in arbor of the Colt design, that can/will loosen over time. Granted the .36 can be loaded down to wimp status, but the .44 needn't be stoked to full capacity either. Chances are, one can find a used Colt design cheaper than a Remington, but the Remmie will be with you much longer.

 

As stated early in this post, this is an opinion from my point of view, and in no way puts this great video down.

 

Al

[Cemetery]

I'd say Ruger Old Army, so you can learn what cap and ballin' is all about without having to fight the gun all the time.

[Tyrel Cody]

Good video, but, like any personal opinion, biased to ones personal taste. I have found that the Remington frame pistol is much less trouble to get into. No barrel gap spacing to worry about, no wedge pin to lose or improperly seat,no complex disassembly, among other considerations. The Remington is a stronger frame, without the peened in arbor of the Colt design, that can/will loosen over time. Granted the .36 can be loaded down to wimp status, but the .44 needn't be stoked to full capacity either. Chances are, one can find a used Colt design cheaper than a Remington, but the Remmie will be with you much longer.

 

As stated early in this post, this is an opinion from my point of view, and in no way puts this great video down.

 

Al

 

 

Remmies can be had in .36 also http://www.cabelas.com/product/Pietta-Model-New-Army-Caliber-Black-Powder-Revolver/731694.uts?searchPath=%2Fbrowse.cmd%3FcategoryId%3D734095080%26CQ_search%3Dpietta%2Bnew%2Barmy%26CQ_st%3Db

[Blackey Cole]

I'd say Ruger Old Army, so you can learn what cap and ballin' is all about without having to fight the gun all the time.

i would second that. My first was a hawks navy in .36 that was cheap because it was worn out but a friend at the time was gunsmithing and built me a new bushing. Second was a pietta army Sherriff model I won at wr. I tried shooting them but imeadiatily bought a roa and went looking for a second. I took a couple of weeks as I recall. In the mean time I shot the itialians and had nothing but problems caps falling off , jamming not going off etc, when I switched to the roas things went a lot smoother only time I had problems was a when I forgot to pop caps before first stage or screwed up in loading them.

[Pit Bull Tex]

I started playing with BP and bought a pair of SS 1858s with 5 1/2" barrels and 12 cylinders.They are turned and have lower hammers.They are fun to shoot and feel really good in my hands shooting GF.I have never shot them in a match but shoot them at home and make some noise and smoke.FUN GUNs.

[Cemetery]

i would second that. My first was a hawks navy in .36 that was cheap because it was worn out but a friend at the time was gunsmithing and built me a new bushing. Second was a pietta army Sherriff model I won at wr. I tried shooting them but imeadiatily bought a roa and went looking for a second. I took a couple of weeks as I recall. In the mean time I shot the itialians and had nothing but problems caps falling off , jamming not going off etc, when I switched to the roas things went a lot smoother only time I had problems was a when I forgot to pop caps before first stage or screwed up in loading them.

 

Tell ya what, when I started cap and ballin' back in '10, there was nobody who did it, and nobody I shot with knew anybody who did, so with the help of Captian Baylor's website, I taught myself. Then after a year or so, I got a pair of 1860's, which recently I finally got them runnin' smooth, and they're my go to fun guns. But yeah, I'd be done with c&b if I had to fight the gun every stage at every shoot.

 

Since '10, I've only shot smokeless in two or three matches, otherwise it's all black all day, guess I got cap 'n ball fever.

[Noz]

All a matter of "what feels good to you". I owned Rremingtons, both 36 and 44. I no longer own them but I have 6 pair of 1860s, 1 pair of 1861s and my current shooters are Ruger Old Armys.

[irish ike, SASS #43615]

Started with 1851's with 7 1/2 barrels in 44. Then went to Remington's in 44 and 7 1/2" barrel. Got them to run 6 stages without touching them. Then for speed I went to Remington's in 44 and 5 1/2" barrels. And would run 6 stages no maintenance. But always having fuss with them to keep them that way. I liked the grip on the 51's so I tried a pair in 44 and 5 1/2" barrels. I did the Larson Pettifogger fix to them and they ran well. But ultimately I went with a pair or ROA's with 5 1/2" barrels. Changed the grips to gunfighter grips and other than nipples thats all thats ever been done to them. Been shooting them for 7 years.

The ROA's solved all of the other pistols problems. And with the conversion cylinder I can shoot any category, maybe not B Western. I bought a back up pair just in case, and they are still in the cases.

 

And great video. But as has been said you need to find whats right for you.

Ike

[Griff]

I started with an EMF 1851 by Armi San Marco. I shot it for a year before the hand spring broke... But... the first time I fired it, I took it to a local range and at 25 yards shot 25 rounds thru one ragged hole off bags. After that 1st year of competing with the gun, I went to a 1858 Remington, after one match, I put it up and didn't shoot it anymore until I finally traded it off. It was uncomfortable to aim, needed cleaning every 2nd or 3rd stage, and generally aggravating. Did I mention the grip was uncomfortable, and I fatigued trying to aim it?

 

When I needed two sixguns to compete, I bought a Colt 2nd Gen 1851. I've since added two more... At "Back atCha" I shot the chickens where their eyes belonged... in all cases there wasn't a mark on the heads... until I put a couple of lead smears where I wanted them.

 

Are there better choices for an accomplished "Frontiersman" shooter? Possibly, maybe... if you want... search for out of production guns... but, like the Colt SAA, for the vast majority of folks, the 1851 is one of the most naturally pointing handguns ever produced.

 

Ergo, I whole heartily agree with BDM's assertion that for the novice C&B'er, the 1851 is a fine choice!

 

Oh yeah, that first ASM I bought... (in 1987) and still compete with, is as tight and accurate as day one! As one of the very few (like 2 I'm aware of), still competing with C&B revolvers, since 1987, that says something... besides being a glutton for punishment!

[Dutch Wheeler]

I'd say Ruger Old Army, so you can learn what cap and ballin' is all about without having to fight the gun all the time.

 

Good luck finding a pair of those without giving up your first born!

[Major Crimes]

Mike, thank you for the informative video.

 

Out of curiosity why the 1851 and not the 1861?

 

I ask as I was looking at getting a C&B and was pretty much decided on the 1861.

[Driftwood Johnson, SASS #38283]

Howdy

 

I bought my first C&B revolver in 1968. Yes, it was a brass framed 44 caliber Navy. No, I did not know there was no such thing as a 44 caliber Navy, and the cheaper brass version was more affordable to a teenager back then. And yes, the frame eventually stretched and it is now a wall hanger.

 

 

 

 

 

Next around 1975 or so, I bought an EuroArms 44 Remington. And yes, I discovered the Remington design tends to bind up more quickly than a Colt design. The reason the Remington tends to bind up more quickly is the cylinder pin is so thin. The much wider cylinder arbor of the Colt design keeps any fouling blasted onto the arbor spread out over a larger surface area. In addition, the Colt arbor has a helical groove running around it that provides clearance for fouling to build up in. I even tried cutting clearance grooves in the cylinder pin of the Remmie, but it did not help much. Of course, if either of them had a cylinder bushing, they would both perform better with Black Powder fouling.

 

 

 

 

I always wanted a pair of 1860s, and a few years ago Cabellas was having a sale on Pietta 1860 Armies. I bought a pair. To tell the truth, I wish I had spent a few more bucks on Ubertis. I took the pair to a match, but to tell the truth I spent too much time with misfires and hang fires, and have not brought them to a match again. I guess I am just a cartridge guy.

 

 

 

 

A bunch of years ago I had a cartridge conversion cylinder fitted to the old Remmie. I also came across a Stainless Uberti Remmie that already had a conversion cylinder fitted to it. I have not taken them to a match in a long time, but they are fun when I do. I only shoot them with Black Powder, and I still have to wipe off the cylinder faces with a damp cloth after every five shots, or they will bind.

 

 

 

 

Hmmmm...........Maybe if I wasn't such a died in the wool cartridge guy I would look into a pair of steel framed 1851 Navies.

[Tucker McNeely]

I fell in love with cap and ball pistols last spring watching the masters at the Kansas State BP shoot.

 

I picked J Bar, Noz and Deacon Stones' brains. Jumped in feet first with a pair of ROAs. They are awesome. Great balance and tame 32 grains 'ish of 3F APP very nicely.

 

Best of luck finding a mating pair of ROAs. You won't be disappointed.

[Noz]

Mike, thank you for the informative video.

 

Out of curiosity why the 1851 and not the 1861?

 

I ask as I was looking at getting a C&B and was pretty much decided on the 1861.

I'm not Mike but the 61 is just a prettied up 51 with a better rammer.

[Major Crimes]

I'm not Mike but the 61 is just a prettied up 51 with a better rammer.

Sounds like two points in the 61's favour?

[Bottom Dealin Mike, SASS #22273]

1861's are nice, but not as iconic as the 1851s.

 

The Uberti version, with a proper 7.5" barrel points better than the Pietta version with the 8-inch barrel.

 

I have an 1861, but usually shoot my 1851s...I have four of those.

[Bottom Dealin Mike, SASS #22273]

On the subject of Ruger Old Army Revolvers. I have one and it is a fine shooting machine.

 

I'll tell you why I don't recommend it as a first timer's revolver, but I hope Ruger lovers won't be offended. This is my opinion, and the beauty of opinions is that anyone can have one. Your opinion is just as valid as mine.

 

First of all, I think .36 caliber revolvers are better for first timers. They are cheaper and easier to shoot, using less lead, less powder and delivering less recoil.

 

Second, ROAs are not in production. They can still be had, but not as easily as a production gun, and the prices are relatively high.

 

And, finally, (this is where some of you will be unhappy with me) ROAs are fine shooting machines, but they have as much romance and history attached to them as the guns in "Firefly".

 

I get to talk to a lot of shooters. I compete in Cowboy Action, IDPA and traditional flintlock matches. I'm also the president of the biggest gun club in central Pennsylvania, and I write regularly for three magazines. I also have 35,000 YouTube subscribers...all of whom give me tons of feedback, whether I want it or not. So, over the years I've heard from a lot of shooters, and I've gotten a feel for what interests them, and why.

 

Anecdotally, this is what I've learned from talking to thousands of shooters. It isn't scientific, but I don't think it can be ignored either.

 

Most people who I've talked to buy their cap and ball revolver for a combination of three reasons:

 

1. It is an inexpensive, low hassle way to legally purchase a handgun (at least it is in most US states and many foreign countries). That's why so many brass-framed guns are sold.

 

2. They are inspired by either:

a. History

b. Movies/TV

c. Video games

 

3. They are unable to legally purchase a cartridge-firing handgun(nobody likes to hear this publicly for obvious reasons...I don't like it either, but I've talked to enough people to know it is true)

 

 

ROAs don't meet several of those criteria. So you don't find them on the shopping list of most first-time C&B buyers.

 

ROA's are far more popular among CAS Frontiersmen than they are among the larger black powder fraternity. You have to understand that black powder shooters are a real niche group, and cap & ball Cowboy Action Shooters are a truly minuscule sub-niche.

 

Finally, given a few hours in the shop, and one trip to the range, anyone can smooth up an 1851 Navy, and improve its reliability to very nearly tuned Ruger levels. Given a couple of hours (Max) on the range, I can get any 1851 hitting POA. In the video posted with this video. I'm aiming dead on with that Navy. The only misses are with my left hand...which is a notoriously poor shot compared to his brother on the right.

 

And that's why I don't recommend ROAs as a first cap and ball sixgun.

[irish ike, SASS #43615]

I highly recommend Larson Pettifogger's article on tuning the 51's. Most come form the factory with the cylinder and bolt not in sync. He also goes into detail about other things that make them a go to pistol.

Ike

[Major Crimes]

!861's are nice, but not as iconic as the 1851s.

 

The Uberti version, with a proper 7.5" barrel points better than the Pietta version with the 8-inch barrel.

 

I have an 1861, but usually shoot my 1851s...I have four of those.

 

Thanks Mike, I appreciate the way you put yourself out there, gutsiest move I ever saw (Mav).

[Major Crimes]

 

And, finally, (this is where some of you will be unhappy with me) ROAs are fine shooting machines, but they have as much romance and history attached to them as the guns in "Firefly".

 

 

 

That is very funny, I bet you will get heaps for it

[Lead Ringer]

Hey Mike,

I took your advice. I'm having a pair of 1851 sheriff's models in 36 cal. Set up.

Looking forward to shooting them.

Regards,

Ringer

[J-BAR #18287]

Good video Mike, hope you keep them coming.

 

I love my 1851s too, and I hope your videos result in LOTS of shooters getting into Blackpowder shooting. After experiencing the joys of making smoke the old fashioned way, the newbies will provide a bigger market for all kinds of black powder guns, and we will all benefit.

 

Here's hoping they all join the NRA, too!!

[McCandless]

If you don't mind my 2 cents... I found that loading the .36 with heavier conical lead instead of ball helps overcome the "spotter" factor.

When it's an older "dead" target or doesn't "ring" when hit by that 80 grain ball, I've had less attentive spotters call hits a miss. (not often, but enough). There's been times when I hit the target, and the TO saw the hit, give the spotters the hairy eyeball and question them, but be awarded a miss. The 133gr conicals seemed to cure that. With a louder clang and some movement of the target, haven't had that problem. When battling the smoke and noise some spotters seem not to be able to spot the targets for BP shooters. Shooting first, with fresh-painted targets is not always an option. But, getting your "clang" louder can help!

[Lefty Dude, SASS # 51223]

Nice job Mike !

 

I agree with you 100%

 

Enough said, I could say more. However you done it all, Pard.

 

BTW; I shoot Pietta 1851's. I have 60's also but the 51's are my favorite.

 

If I had to buy a pair again, they would be 61's. In my opinion the best looking Colt ever made.

[Tyrel Cody]

Hey Mike,

I took your advice. I'm having a pair of 1851 sheriff's models in 36 cal. Set up.

Looking forward to shooting them.

Regards,

Ringer

 

You gonna start casting and selling round balls as well?

 

Love your .44 165 gr TC by the way.

[Warden Callaway]

 

I really love shooting my Pietta 51 Confederate Navy 44s. I ran about 1,000 balls and shot them all. I've been waiting for cool weather to cast more. It's time.

[El Hombre Sin Nombre]

 

I really love shooting my Pietta 51 Confederate Navy 44s. I ran about 1,000 balls and shot them all. I've been waiting for cool weather to cast more. It's time.

Those sure look a little too clean and shiny for having fired 1000 balls haha. I have a pair just like them. Great little shooters

[Warden Callaway]

Those sure look a little too clean and shiny for having fired 1000 balls haha. I have a pair just like them. Great little shooters

That picture was taken just after taking them onto of the boxes and before a gallon of stocky oil was wiped off. They still look good. Consecutive serial numbers.

[Lead Ringer]

You gonna start casting and selling round balls as well?

 

Love your .44 165 gr TC by the way.

Thanks Cody. Glad to hear the bullets are working for you.

No round ball yet. I'll be busy setting up to manufacture HI Tek coated bullets this fall and winter.

Regards,

Ringer

[El Hombre Sin Nombre]

That picture was taken just after taking them onto of the boxes and before a gallon of stocky oil was wiped off. They still look good. Consecutive serial numbers.

I kinda figured as much, with the tags still on them

[Major Crimes]

Just got a price from the local Gun store.

 

$600 for both the 51 and 61 (Uberti).

 

That may have to be the first purchase next year (I still have a pair of Uberti SASS PRO's on back order)

 

Is the Brass backstrap and trigger guard OK in a 61 or can they stretch where they are screwed into the frame?

[Cinco Peso]

Mike:

I am a subscriber to your channel, and you have thought me all I know about BP revolvers.

Where can I get a template to modify my Pietta grips. I do not have a gun to trace.

 

Thanks,

Cinco