Powder question for 45 LC reloaders

[Dutch Coroner]

I am currently using TiteGroup in my 45 Colts and the stuff is just filthy. The rifle becomes a gritty mess with less than 300 rounds through it.

 

So, I thought I'd see what the experienced re-loaders on the Wire use.

 

Not looking for a specific load, just a powder that you've been successful with and is relatively clean.

 

Thanks,

 

Dutch

[Rye Miles #13621]

Funny I use Tite-Group and don't see how it's any dirtier than any other powders! I am shooting .44-40 in both pistols and rifle and that caliber is naturally cleaner.

[Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933]

At the pressures we shoot in SASS every powder is going to have blowby in your rifle.

[Rye Miles #13621]

At the pressures we shoot in SASS every powder is going to have blowby in your rifle.

Not in .44-40!

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

WW231/HP38 and of course Unique.

If you're get that much unburned powder. Up the chg some and use a FIRM roll-crimp.

OLG

[Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933]

Not in .44-40!

 

 

Well duh. He didn't ask about .44-40. He asked about .45 Colt.

[Dutch Coroner]

If I could turn back time, they would all be 44-40.

[Colorado Coffinmaker]

Glad you qualified with "relatively" clean. Try APP Wonderful stuff. Lotsa smoke and easy to clean. Of course, you HAVE to clean. My Go-To powder in my heathen uneducated days was ........ Tightgroup. I never found anything wrong with it. I did however, clean my rifle every once in a while.

 

Coffinmaker

[Lost Trail]

I am currently using TiteGroup in my 45 Colts and the stuff is just filthy. The rifle becomes a gritty mess with less than 300 rounds through it.

 

So, I thought I'd see what the experienced re-loaders on the Wire use.

 

Not looking for a specific load, just a powder that you've been successful with and is relatively clean.

 

Thanks,

 

Dutch

I also shoot .45 Colt and no matter which powder you use with a straight wall case, at CAS loads the pressure is not sufficient to swell the case to the chamber. Thus we get blow back and dirty guns.

 

I can shoot my .44 Mag and any other handguns loaded with the same powder and have far less mess than my CAS revolvers.

 

.44-40 has a shoulder and reduced neck which allows far less blow back so is inherently cleaner. I have two brothers that also shoot CAS, one shoots .357, the other .44-40 and the difference on the cleaning bench is dramatic.

 

I load Unique mostly but also Tight Group and Red Dot.

[Matthew Duncan]

I am currently using TiteGroup in my 45 Colts and the stuff is just filthy. The rifle becomes a gritty mess with less than 300 rounds through it.

 

So, I thought I'd see what the experienced re-loaders on the Wire use.

 

Not looking for a specific load, just a powder that you've been successful with and is relatively clean.

 

Thanks,

 

Dutch

From your results it appears you're shooting a lite load?

 

Try loading one grain below Titegroup manufacture's max, 250 grain bullet with a vey good crimp. This is how I make my 45 Colt reloads and experience a clean load.

 

It's been two years since I've cleaned my guns, other then a wipe down with a rag.

[Griff]

PM sent.

[Nate Kiowa Jones #6765]

I also shoot .45 Colt and no matter which powder you use with a straight wall case, at CAS loads the pressure is not sufficient to swell the case to the chamber. Thus we get blow back and dirty guns.

 

I can shoot my .44 Mag and any other handguns loaded with the same powder and have far less mess than my CAS revolvers.

 

.44-40 has a shoulder and reduced neck which allows far less blow back so is inherently cleaner. I have two brothers that also shoot CAS, one shoots .357, the other .44-40 and the difference on the cleaning bench is dramatic.

 

I load Unique mostly but also Tight Group and Red Dot.

 

 

It doesn't have much to do with the shoulder and neck. It's more about 44-40 brass being thinner than 45lc. And the 44-40 chambers fit better.

 

This discussion comes up almost monthly either on the SASS WIRE or over on the LEVERGUNS.COM forum . Usually it is about the 45lc rifles and the severe blowback with the down loaded CAS ammo.

The reason the problem is more common with the 45lc rifle is because the makers all use the maximum SAMMI (Sporting Arms and Ammunition. Manufacturers’ Institute) specs when they ream the chambers for the gun. They do this so the gun will more likely cycle with a broad spectrum of ammo's. This is why semi-auto pistol with match grade barrels tend to be finicky about the ammo they will run. The match grade chambers are tight. The problem is the 45lc chambers are still sized for the old 45lc ammo. Back then they used bullets as large as .456-7”.

I don't have historical reference but I believe in about 1900 when Colt declared the SAA as nitro proofed the bullet size was reduced so if any of the old BP gun were shot with the new smokeless powder the bullets just rattled down the bore and never over pressured the gun.

This diagram shows both cartridge and chamber dimensions. Please note that unless noted all diameters are +.004 and there .200' inside the chamber the nominal is .4862. if you add .004 to that the chamber can be as large as .4902 and still be in spec. I believe this all came about when the industry changed from the non-rebated old balloon style cases (like the one pictured) to the modern rebated rim swaged brass. Notice the max bullet dia. .456. Modern 45lc bullets run to only about .454 max with the majority at .452. The current ammo specs don't fill the chambers like the old balloon case ammo. So hard brass and down loaded CAS ammo will exhibit these problems.

45LC CHAMBER AND CARTRIDGE DEMENSIONS

 

This 45lc blowby in the rifle problem has been going on for so long now I believe the IMR folks came out with their Trailboss powder just to combat this. A good near max book charge of Trailboss and a 250 grain bullet crimped well in a Win or Starline case seems to be the solution for some folks. Win or Starline cases are somewhat softer brass than most of the others. Some folks only neck size their once fired rifle brass. For BP, there are some folks using 44-40 brass blown out to 45 and claim it works well. 44-40 brass is really thin.

[Jabez Cowboy,SASS # 50129]

A load using RED DOT that pushes a 250 gr. bullet out the barrel at anything over 850 Fps. will sure go a long way toward stopping blow-by ...

 

Or a case full of 3F ,,,, I only take-down my 66 once a year in .45 colt for a complete cleaning ....

 

Jabez Cowboy

[Rio Brazos Kid]

NKJ hit the nail on the head. It's the very thin brass of the 44-40 that enables the brass to seal off the blowby, and has nothing to do with its very slightly bottle necked shape.

 

45 LC brass is pretty thick, and simply doesn't obturate enough to seal off with very reduced loads. Running near max loads behind 250 gr bullets, and using very heavy crimps will usually stop the excessive blow back to an acceptable level.

 

The powder you are using, Titegroup, will burn as clean as any other, if loaded as indicated above.

 

RBK

[Abilene Slim SASS 81783]

This 45lc blowby in the rifle problem has been going on for so long now I believe the IMR folks came out with their Trailboss powder just to combat this. A good near max book charge of Trailboss and a 250 grain bullet crimped well in a Win or Starline case seems to be the solution for some folks. Win or Starline cases are somewhat softer brass than most of the others.

This. Although I found that Trailboss loaded to just over midrange worked really well.

[Rye Miles #13621]

 

See next 2 posts

[Rye Miles #13621]

Well duh. He didn't ask about .44-40. He asked about .45 Colt.

Well Duh, you didn't specify that so I figured I'd let everyone know!

[Rye Miles #13621]

At the pressures we shoot in SASS every powder is going to have blowby in your rifle.

You didn't specify a caliber, you made a general statement! DUH!

[Snake River Clay SASS #34984]

I use Clays. Very clean. For a good seal use Winchester brass. It is much thinner than Starline. I like Starline for pistol loads when there is a reload stage. It barely expands so it drops right out.

[Deadeye George]

I am currently using TiteGroup in my 45 Colts and the stuff is just filthy. The rifle becomes a gritty mess with less than 300 rounds through it.

 

So, I thought I'd see what the experienced re-loaders on the Wire use.

 

Not looking for a specific load, just a powder that you've been successful with and is relatively clean.

 

Thanks,

 

Dutch

 

Well, if you don't mind powder that leaves just a trace of whitish residue on your brass which will shine like a new dime simply by soaking it in water, no tumbling necessary and a bore and receiver that can be cleaned by a swab dipped in water then a spritz of Rem oil then you might want to try a pound of Alliant BlackMZ powder! I did and haven't looked back and it is all the powder I use for my rifle, pistols and shotgun.

 

There are no downsides to the powder that I am aware of but it does produce some smoke, enough to be used in the black powder categories if you want.

[Driftwood Johnson, SASS #38283]

 

The rifle becomes a gritty mess with less than 300 rounds through it.

 

 

????

 

You consider that dirty? 300 rounds? Try Black Powder some time.

 

Anyhoo, on the rare occasion I load 45 Colt with Smokeless, I use my old standby, Unique. Yes, it does tend to be a little bit dirty, because the charge does not take up the entire case, and because of the .012 thickness of most 45 Colt brass, vs the .007 neck thickness of most 44-40. As has already been well explained, it ain't the shape of 44-40 that keeps the action clean, high pressure gas has no problem going around corners, it is the thickness of the brass.

[Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933]

You didn't specify a caliber, you made a general statement! DUH!

No, I answered the question posed.

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

Dutch -

For my favorite in a 200 grain .45 Colt load that makes 800 FPS from the rifle, I use Winchester WST. Tried all the rest for a light load with a 200 grain slug, and WST is the only one I have stuck with. Makes an accurate, clean, consistent load even with low temperatures.

 

When I can't get WST, then I drop back to either Clay Dot, Clays, 700-X or Red Dot. All are dirtier than WST at the same power factor.

 

TiteGroup is really bad for dirty and sooty at low pressures. Won't burn completely and blackens actions and cases. Takes above mid range loading (meaning 1000 FPS or so) to get the pressures up to burn clean. And when you get there, muzzle report and hot cases abound. But, it's accurate.

 

Good luck, GJ

[CodyMaverick]

I am currently using TiteGroup in my 45 Colts and the stuff is just filthy. The rifle becomes a gritty mess with less than 300 rounds through it.

 

So, I thought I'd see what the experienced re-loaders on the Wire use.

 

Not looking for a specific load, just a powder that you've been successful with and is relatively clean.

 

Thanks,

 

Dutch

Howdy Dutch!

 

I've done a lot of experimenting with this and have found that the bullet makes more noticeable difference than the powder or the charge.

 

A 250g RNFP with a light powder charge will produce less fouling of your cases, chamber, and action than a lighter bullet at the same or heavier charge. I prefer coated bullets 'cause they're cleaner to reload with but I have used both hard and soft cast lead bullets and didn't notice enough difference in how they performed to make me switch back from the coated ones.

 

I have tried a variety of the popular powders and the only real difference I found is that Unique gets my guns filthy regardless of the bullet used.

 

I usually shoot a '73 but I also have a nice Marlin Widdermatic and if I shoot anything lighter than a 250g bullet in the Marlin, my forehead also gets a nice grimy coating along with the gun.

 

I am currently using ClayDot because that was what I could get back during the Great Powder Drought and I bought a lot of it. I am happy with it. I am also now shooting a 225g coated bullet from SNS as a compromise between blowback and recoil.

 

 

Hoping to see you and JB this weekend at MDS!!!

[Cherokee Sam]

Well, if you don't mind powder that leaves just a trace of whitish residue on your brass which will shine like a new dime simply by soaking it in water, no tumbling necessary and a bore and receiver that can be cleaned by a swab dipped in water then a spritz of Rem oil then you might want to try a pound of Alliant BlackMZ powder! I did and haven't looked back and it is all the powder I use for my rifle, pistols and shotgun.

 

There are no downsides to the powder that I am aware of but it does produce some smoke, enough to be used in the black powder categories if you want.

Basically Black MZ is APP FFG. If you want smokeless use Clays or Trail Boss.

[Rye Miles #13621]

No, I answered the question posed.

Yes you did and I was merely making a statement about how clean shooting .44-40 is, no help to the OP I'll admit!

[Cheyenne Ranger, 48747L]

use Red Dot in .32s all the way to 45-70 and shotgun. Mouse fart loads and messy but my old arthritic wrists appreciate the low to no recoil

[BLACKFOOT SASS #11947]

I use Red Dot with a 200gr RNFP bullet. I annealed the top of my .45 Colt cases to stop the blow-by. Don't know how many reloadings I can do before I need to anneal them again.

 

Blackfoot

[Nate Kiowa Jones #6765]

I use Red Dot with a 200gr RNFP bullet. I annealed the top of my .45 Colt cases to stop the blow-by. Don't know how many reloadings I can do before I need to anneal them again.

 

Blackfoot

 

 

I know of some folk that neck size only. I guess you blow them out with hot loads first then neck size. should work.

[Jabez Cowboy,SASS # 50129]

Annealing will also increase case life as will partial sizing ...

It will also help with sealing the chamber against blow-back ...

 

The NEW improved RED DOT will burn very cleanly, IF pressures of 11,200 PSI. are reached ...

 

 

Jabez Cowboy

[Lefty Dude, SASS # 51223]

I use Unique and get a very clean burn, Try it you might like it. BTW; Unique likes a tight crimp.

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

Annealing will also increase case life as will partial sizing ...

It will also help with sealing the chamber against blow-back ...

 

The NEW improved RED DOT will burn very cleanly, IF pressures of 11,200 PSI. are reached ...

 

Unfortunately, that pressure level is about 5,000 PSI above what a large number of cowboys are shooting in their .45 Colt loads. At more usual cowboy pressures, RD is fairly dirty.

 

I do find that the two-diameter carbide sizer die from Redding

 

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/943821/redding-dual-ring-carbide-sizer-die-45-colt-long-colt

 

works well for cutting down fouling. Been very satisfied with better case life and better chamber sealing for the year I've used one. Expensive devil, though.

 

Good luck, GJ

[Abilene Slim SASS 81783]

I enjoy reloading --up to a point. I had a .45 cal rifle once, but no amount of blowby would make me want to take the time to anneal straight wall cases for this game. There are bottle neck cartridges and rifles that do the job so much better.

 

Just my opinion, nothing more.

[ShadowCatcher]

I am currently using TiteGroup in my 45 Colts and the stuff is just filthy. The rifle becomes a gritty mess with less than 300 rounds through it.

 

So, I thought I'd see what the experienced re-loaders on the Wire use.

 

Not looking for a specific load, just a powder that you've been successful with and is relatively clean.

 

Thanks,

 

Dutch

Of course another approach is to find a nice mild load that groups very well and use it.

 

You can throw your brass in the tumbler overnight if needed, and clean your guns after

each match because that's just good practice, and not worry about such stuff.

 

I clean any gun that has been shot, because I cannot put away a dirty gun - Uncle Sam

and my dad taught me better than that. Pour a three finger shot of your favorite, and spend

some time cleaning and checking over your guns, then put them away.

 

Life is simpler once you get past all that!

 

SC

[Key Hay]

Shooting Titegroup/Starline with a 45 colt 1894 Marlin left handed. I finish the day with black spots all over my face. That's what safety glasses are for right?

 

I don't clean it that often cause when I do it spits worse (well except when running black loads).