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Expediting


Attica Jack  #23953

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There are no "rules." It is a position to help with match flow. It is mentioned in the ROI and ROII handbooks. Simply bring up the manuals and use the find function in your browser to search for expediter.

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I can't find the rule on expediting firearms. Where in the rule book would I find this. Thanks

 

​RO1 pp. 7-8

 

...unless you are referring to someone expediting firearms from the stage to the ULT for the shooter.

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Not what I was looking for. I think I need the ruling on expediting from the stage to the ULT.

 

​Ruling on what exact situation?

 

Sweeping & dropped firearm rules still apply...so do any "round(s) remaining" penalties.

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Assisting a shooter with firearm collection after the stage is over has changed a little bit with the new rules about how a long gun can be left closed, but the shooter still has full responsibility to have made sure to clear it before restaging the gun and shooting the next gun.

 

What this means to the firearms hauler - if the gun is even close to being closed, such that you would be tempted to open the action further, or if you glance at the gun and see a case or hull still in the action, DON'T MOVE THE GUN or WORK THE ACTION. Leave it alone and ask the shooter and TO to come over and inspect the gun. Hopefully the gun is clear, and shooter will just carry it his own self to the unloading table.

 

If you pick up that gun, work the action, a fired (or even worse, a live) round comes out, the shooter should be getting a penalty! And he's not going to be happy if he thinks the helper was at all responsible for "earning" him that penalty. (Helper wasn't, but you know how some folks can get.)

 

Same thing if the gun was restaged to be questionable about breaking any other rule on restaging. Like the 170 degree rule, or muzzle sweeping folks going down range.

 

So, leave any gun with a visible shell in it, where it was staged. Leave any gun that may have broken the 170 rule when it was restaged, where it was staged. Only assist with moving guns to the unloading that are open, obviously empty, and have been properly restaged.

 

Or if a gun has been declared a malfunctioning gun, but has been properly grounded.

 

The RO I handbook now makes it clear that a penalty for leaving a long gun with either an empty or live round in it ALWAYS applies (to the shooter) even if someone else opens the action and discovers that round.

 

 

Should someone other than the competitor open the action of the firearm; any penalties that would have been incurred are still applied.

RO I, page 18

 

 

Good luck, GJ

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I got scolded for expediting rifle and shotgun after the stage was over. I check to see if anything with the rifle is unsafe, and check to see if there are shells in the shotgun. If anything looks amiss, I leave them be, if OK I will take them to the ULT. Is that okay to do that? Our posse was moving as fast as molasses in January, and not everyone was working.....we were 45 min.later than the other two posses. A close guess with older shooters and those with physical problems, about 45 sec. or more can be saved by expediting to the ULT. One stage left the shotgun and the rifle on the far left and the pistols were shot on the far right. I was trying to move thinks along a bit faster.

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There are shooters who don't want their long guns touched, much less moved by anyone but themselves. Most folks I shoot with don't have a problem with it, and it's not uncommon where I shoot to have someone expedite a long gun either to the shooter at the end of the stage, or even to the unloading table.

 

At anything other than a monthly match where everyone pretty much knows everyone, I think it's a good idea to have the PM address the issue on a stage where expediting would be used, just so everyone knows what is going on, and has a chance to 'opt out' if they desire.

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I got scolded for expediting rifle and shotgun after the stage was over. I check to see if anything with the rifle is unsafe, and check to see if there are shells in the shotgun. If anything looks amiss, I leave them be, if OK I will take them to the ULT. Is that okay to do that? Our posse was moving as fast as molasses in January, and not everyone was working.....we were 45 min.later than the other two posses. A close guess with older shooters and those with physical problems, about 45 sec. or more can be saved by expediting to the ULT. One stage left the shotgun and the rifle on the far left and the pistols were shot on the far right. I was trying to move thinks along a bit faster.

 

 

Looks like you saw a problem and took the initiative to help fix it. Kudos to you. But as Grizzly Dave pointed out, it's definitely best to get permission before handling a person's guns.

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I got scolded for expediting rifle and shotgun after the stage was over. I check to see if anything with the rifle is unsafe, and check to see if there are shells in the shotgun. If anything looks amiss, I leave them be, if OK I will take them to the ULT. Is that okay to do that? Our posse was moving as fast as molasses in January, and not everyone was working.....we were 45 min.later than the other two posses. A close guess with older shooters and those with physical problems, about 45 sec. or more can be saved by expediting to the ULT. One stage left the shotgun and the rifle on the far left and the pistols were shot on the far right. I was trying to move thinks along a bit faster.

 

There is no "rule" or "job description" covering someone assisting the shooter in getting long guns cleared from the stage to the ULT.

IF necessary (either due to a very slow posse or to extended shooting locations on the stage) the Posse Leader might assign/ask for help in keeping things moving.

The T/O might also call for someone to retrieve one or both of the shooter's long guns (or revolvers if they have been staged).

Always best to clear any such actions with those in charge of the stage...as well as getting OK from the shooter to handle his/her firearms.

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For the past year I've needed. As much help moving my long guns because of my health. I shot this month I needed help for long distances like across the berm but I'm getting more stable.

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Once at the unloading table I touched a shooters rifle in order to be able to see inside it and to check the magazine and promptly got reamed out by the shooter for touching their guns.....they told me that they don't want anybody touching their guns lest they be stolen....I was taken aback by this as we were members of the same club and shot together for years plus they knew I am an active LEO...so now....I don't touch anybody's property...

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Once at the unloading table I touched a shooters rifle in order to be able to see inside it and to check the magazine and promptly got reamed out by the shooter for touching their guns.....they told me that they don't want anybody touching their guns lest they be stolen....I was taken aback by this as we were members of the same club and shot together for years plus they knew I am an active LEO...so now....I don't touch anybody's property...

 

Tell them if they want a stage DQ, or an SOG, keep up the aggressive, combative behavior. The ULT officer has to be able to see the action and there's always a few who intentionally handle their weapons at the ULT to passive/aggressively make it impossible to do a proper inspection. "Get permission" to simply move or tilt a weapon to be able to properly inspect the action and magazine tube follower? That is nonsense. This is the foolish, disrespectful rudeness of the over-inflated egos of tired little men. If that submissive role is what is expected from the ULT officer there, I suggest you not do the work.

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Tell them if they want a stage DQ, or an SOG, keep up the aggressive, combative behavior. The ULT officer has to be able to see the action and there's always a few who intentionally handle their weapons at the ULT to passive/aggressively make it impossible to do a proper inspection. "Get permission" to simply move or tilt a weapon to be able to properly inspect the action and magazine tube follower? That is nonsense. This is the foolish, disrespectful rudeness of the over-inflated egos of tired little men. If that submissive role is what is expected from the ULT officer there, I suggest you not do the work.

+1.

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It is amazing how much expediting guns and shooters speeds up a posse. Both from LT to line and from line to ULT.

 

I was PM at a rather large match and had 28 or 30 folks on the posse. Going into it I knew we would have to use expediters on every stage. I always have a meeting with my posse before we start to get the ground rules established. I finished the talk with "if you don't want anyone else touching your guns then I can arrange for you to be moved to another posse" not a person expressed a problem with someone else touching their guns. I also tell them if there is any question with the firearm not to touch it until the problem is addressed on the line. I think Mr Pettifogger was on my posse that year as a matter of fact. We shot 6 stages, done by 2:00 with that large of posse. I became a believer in expediters at that point.

 

I don't much care to shoot with what I consider prima donna's that will throw a gun down during transitions and them fuss when someone tries to help out by expediting. If someone said something about guns getting stolen at the ULT I am pretty sure they would get a sidebar conference to discuss the attitude issue. Does he lock his guns in his cart after he shoots each time or does he sit with them until it is his turn to shoot again?

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I've got no problem with expediters. I think in many cases it does speed up the posse and especially with some mobility impaired shooters, makes it possible for them to shoot.

 

I'm OK with the expediter being responsible for muzzle direction, sweeping etc. One of the things that bothers me though is an expediter, helping out, trips and drops a gun. They get the SDQ/MDQ. Just seems unfair to me. I know its the rule, but I don't like it. Definitely makes me think twice about being an expediter.

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I've got no problem with expediters. I think in many cases it does speed up the posse and especially with some mobility impaired shooters, makes it possible for them to shoot.

 

I'm OK with the expediter being responsible for muzzle direction, sweeping etc. One of the things that bothers me though is an expediter, helping out, trips and drops a gun. They get the SDQ/MDQ. Just seems unfair to me. I know its the rule, but I don't like it. Definitely makes me think twice about being an expediter.

 

What is "unfair" about assessing an earned penalty?

Just how often does someone trip and drop a firearm (their own or someone else's)?

All of the shooter's firearms are considered "on the firing line" until they have been cleared at the ULT.

 

BTW - That issue had to be clarified after some ROs were actually trying to penalize the shooter for safety violations committed by others involving the shooter's firearms.

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What is "unfair" about assessing an earned penalty?

Just how often does someone trip and drop a firearm (their own or someone else's)?

All of the shooter's firearms are considered "on the firing line" until they have been cleared at the ULT.

 

BTW - That issue had to be clarified after some ROs were actually trying to penalize the shooter for safety violations committed by others involving the shooter's firearms.

I tripped and dropped one (of my own, not expediting) took the SDQ (it was an mt shotgun) without complaint. In fact, the TO initially did not assess it, as he thought I held onto the shotgun. I did manage to keep it pointed down range. I told him my hands had come off of it before it hit the ground I guess that's what made me think about expediting. Just seems not-quite-right that I could get a SDQ for helping somebody out, that's all. I'm in total agreement that safety comes first, and if a expediter is waving the muzzle around etc, no problem with assessing the earned penalty. Its just the dropped gun that bothers me. Again, I would accept the SDQ/MDQ or assess it if I were TO, but it just does not seem right.

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if you don't want anyone else touching your guns then I can arrange for you to be moved to another posse"

 

sounds a bit heavy-handed to me. If everyone followed your lead, some shooters would have nowhere to go.

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I hurt my foot right after the CO State shoot, and it is still buggin' me....at every shoot I've been to since I've had several folks volunteer to move my long guns for me....and there's no way in the world I would tell them "no, don't touch my guns".....I can't thank them enuff for bein' so sweet!!!!

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It is amazing how much expediting guns and shooters speeds up a posse. Both from LT to line and from line to ULT.

 

I was PM at a rather large match and had 28 or 30 folks on the posse. Going into it I knew we would have to use expediters on every stage. I always have a meeting with my posse before we start to get the ground rules established. I finished the talk with "if you don't want anyone else touching your guns then I can arrange for you to be moved to another posse" not a person expressed a problem with someone else touching their guns. I also tell them if there is any question with the firearm not to touch it until the problem is addressed on the line. I think Mr Pettifogger was on my posse that year as a matter of fact. We shot 6 stages, done by 2:00 with that large of posse. I became a believer in expediters at that point.

 

I don't much care to shoot with what I consider prima donna's that will throw a gun down during transitions and them fuss when someone tries to help out by expediting. If someone said something about guns getting stolen at the ULT I am pretty sure they would get a sidebar conference to discuss the attitude issue. Does he lock his guns in his cart after he shoots each time or does he sit with them until it is his turn to shoot again?

I also think that's a bit heavy handed.

 

I would never criticize someone for moving my guns for me, but I would prefer they leave them alone. Last year I went to my first match with my brand new just slicked up 73 and a well meaning LTO slid it across the table while I was loading my pistols. Of course the table had a bit of splatter on it, so I got to shoot my brand new rifle for the first time with a nice long deep scratch on the side plate. The LTO is a pard and meant no harm, but the scratch is still there.

 

In terms of throwing your own guns down while asking that others leave them alone, they're your guns, if you choose to let others move them, that's your choice.

 

My guns are mine and therefore the choice should be mine.

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Sliding a gun along....wow,no way would i ever approve of that. ! Move them by picking them up off the lading table a couple of inches. but slide them ? AAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRGH

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It is amazing how much expediting guns and shooters speeds up a posse. Both from LT to line and from line to ULT.

 

I was PM at a rather large match and had 28 or 30 folks on the posse. Going into it I knew we would have to use expediters on every stage. I always have a meeting with my posse before we start to get the ground rules established. I finished the talk with "if you don't want anyone else touching your guns then I can arrange for you to be moved to another posse" not a person expressed a problem with someone else touching their guns. I also tell them if there is any question with the firearm not to touch it until the problem is addressed on the line. I think Mr Pettifogger was on my posse that year as a matter of fact. We shot 6 stages, done by 2:00 with that large of posse. I became a believer in expediters at that point.

 

I don't much care to shoot with what I consider prima donna's that will throw a gun down during transitions and them fuss when someone tries to help out by expediting. If someone said something about guns getting stolen at the ULT I am pretty sure they would get a sidebar conference to discuss the attitude issue. Does he lock his guns in his cart after he shoots each time or does he sit with them until it is his turn to shoot again?

That is funny right there. As a match director, if you or anyone else came to me and asked that I remove a shooter from their posse for something as silly as that, let's just say you would not get much traction. You would be promptly relieved of your duties as posse leader as a posse needs a leader not a bully.

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As I mentioned earlier, I don't mind my guns being expedited. The only problem I have is if there is a malfunction. Take my gun to the ULT and stay with it until I get, please but do NOT try to clear it. Let me, please. If I ask for help, great! I've seen too many people start tearing apart someone else's gun without permission.

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As I mentioned earlier, I don't mind my guns being expedited. The only problem I have is if there is a malfunction. Take my gun to the ULT and stay with it until I get, please but do NOT try to clear it. Let me, please. If I ask for help, great! I've seen too many people start tearing apart someone else's gun without permission.

 

I know we're getting a bit off track from the OP but DANG, you hit that nail on the head. Have had a rifle malfunction in the middle of a stage, declared the malfunction and grounded it. By the time I was done with the stage, well meaning posse members had moved my rifle to the loading table and were crowded around it so thick I couldn't even get to the table to unload my other guns.

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I know we're getting a bit off track from the OP but DANG, you hit that nail on the head. Have had a rifle malfunction in the middle of a stage, declared the malfunction and grounded it. By the time I was done with the stage, well meaning posse members had moved my rifle to the loading table and were crowded around it so thick I couldn't even get to the table to unload my other guns.

Expediting an open and empty gun is a help to me and the posse in general. Although it cost me muchco time on a stage at a regional shoot one year.

Moving a malfunctioning gun to the unloading table is another situation a together. I would prefer you didn't but two hands on one gun is safer than carrying it one handed.

As soon as you start leaning gunsmithing on my gun, you will not like my my response. (And I don't care if you are a gunsmith already) (Had a well meaning shooter driving a rod down the barrel of my pistol to remove a squib bullet at a State Shoot one year)

 

And because the subject came up...... You don't need to handle my gun at the unloading table to check for clear. I'll gladly show you anything you need to see..... And you sure as hell don't need to stick to stick your fingers in the chambers of my double gun to see if it is empty.

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We have a very good rule in WBAS -- NO one may touch the shooter's guns at ANY time except the shooter. Excellent rule but I despair of ever getting it instituted in reglar CAS more's the pity. Ham handers like to expedite to avoid more noxious duties like shagging brass. What tiny amounts of time expediting might theoretically save could be way offset if the expediter would shag brass, re-set knockdowns etc etc. Around here you would not be able to exile me to another posse because one posse is all we ever have out here in the Big Empty. We did this for decades with no expediting and now it is seen as an advancement to the game? Not hardly...

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Lone Dog I usually work the unloading table, and I reset targets before I expedite long guns to the ULT. As for time saved....it is about 45 sec. per shooter time saved per shooter and times 5 stages, it adds up. In a more perfect SASS world, EVERYONE would work on a posse picking up brass etc, but it is not like that. I am not complaining, just explaining.

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ha ha 45 seconds per shooter?? lol. Give me a break. Most times not even .000045 seconds per shooter. I am going to venture that on some occasions this fool practice we should have never started and needs to go away may actually cost time...

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Typical CAS stage, 10 rounds of rifle to pick up, 4 shotgun hulls, long guns may be all the way across the bay from where the shooter winds up, and where the unloading table is near.

 

Typical WBAS stage, 10 rounds of rifle brass, 6 shotgun hulls, and 25 rounds of 45 acp cases to pick up. 1911 is cleared on the line, and some ranges have you clear rifle and shotgun on the line as well since the brass picking takes a bit longer, even with a couple of pickers.

 

Not an accurate comparison between the two.

 

Many of us move fairly quick under the timer, afterwards, not so much, walking back across the bay to get long guns, then back across again to the unloading table takes time. Expiditer starts where the long gun is discarded and only goes across once, and maybe even while the clock is still running.

 

In my experience and observation expiditing DOES SAVE TIME on many stages. I have never seen one drop a long gun, most treat the guns they are carrying with more care and respect than their own.

 

Don't want someone else toting your irons? Gently and politely remind the person running guns 'I'd like to get my own guns please' and what do ya know, nearly every time they'll honor your request!

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