Coyote Cap, SASS Life #14184 Posted August 19, 2016 Share Posted August 19, 2016 Lankyframe, is the trigger pull unusually heavy? If your trigger pull is heavy, it contacts the bottom of the sear and can effect the full upward motion of the carrier behind the bolt. Also, pull the hammer to full cock and pull the trigger lightly, while keeping your thumb on the hammer spur. Feel if there is any resistance to the drop of the hammer. A trick that I use a lot is to use a plastic dowel rod from a Marlin. Drop it down the barrel so it rests against the firing pin hole. Cock the hammer and pull the trigger to see how far out the muzzle the plastic dowel rod will fly. Or, just call me when you have the gun in hand so I can talk you through the cure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lankyframe #44046 Posted August 20, 2016 Author Share Posted August 20, 2016 Here's another update. I tried all the things Garrison Joe and Cap suggested except for test with the clay, didn't have any. Everything checked out OK. So I put the whole bolt assembly from the good gun into the bad gun, no go. Then I put the carrier assembly from the good gun into the bad one, no go. Then I put the bolt from the bad gun into the good one and shot a entire box with no problems. Must be the headspace. Does anybody sell the barrel chamber ring? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cat Brules Posted August 20, 2016 Share Posted August 20, 2016 Do NOT pull that Barrel Chamber Ring (pt#7) out. In fact, be careful and check the tiny screws on either side of the receiver that holds the Ring in place. If one or both are missing or very loose, be careful about tightening those screws! If they're both loose, tighten them alternately, 1/4 turn each, in turn. BUT, before you mess with the screws at all, insert a fired shell into the chamber and be sure the bolt is in battery (action closed hard). Don't pull the ring out.....check it for wear or damage with a strong light and magnifier. Where to get a new one? Pretty much, you don't. You can find a take-off Ring on eBay. Ask the seller for clear, close-up photos. EDIT: If you're missing a Chamber Ring screw, the Ring could be moving under firing pin impact on the shells, lessening a strong primer strike and occasionally causing the failures to fire (FTF's) that you're experiencing. Check it to confirm or refute the possibility. Once again I ask: Have you dismantled the action and detail-cleaned everything? Never mind. I suggest you dismantle everything, put the pars in a tray, flood them with an active cleaner, such as simple green and heat everything up with a hair dryer, brush and scrape off baked-on gunk with a brass or nylon brush and "dental-pick" tools and use pipe cleaners and Q-Tips to get into the nooks and crannies. Rinse with hot water. Blot-dry with paper towels and finish with a hair dryer. Squirt a bit of oil on the parts and reassemble. I trust you find the problem....and, please let us know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 Posted August 20, 2016 Share Posted August 20, 2016 Try Nu-line Guns in Rhineland, Missouri Their claim - The nation's premier center for Winchester gun repair and parts distribution. They show they have some 97 12 gauge chamber rings in stock. They have done very nice gunsmithing work on one of my Model 12s that was badly out of time and needed the frame bolt lock recess remachined - from abuse by previous owner. Mailing Address:8150 County Road 4055Rhineland, Missouri 65069 Phone:(573) 676-5500 Fax:(573) 676-3400 Email:nlg@ktis.net Website:http://www.nulineguns.com But, I'd almost suggest sending them the whole gun. As strange as it sounds your problems are, you may have something not obvious at all. For example, I'm not sure exactly how you jumped to the conclusion that you need to replace the chamber ring. In any case, they are experts on Winchesters. One more test that might show you headspace/loosely locking bolt problems. Close action, drop hammer. Bring hammer back to 1/2 cock. That should make all space between carrier front edge and back side of the bolt disappear. Should be no slop there to speak of, with a tight gun, not even 2 or 3 thousandths. Good luck, GJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lankyframe #44046 Posted August 22, 2016 Author Share Posted August 22, 2016 Thank you everyone for all the ideas and suggestions. After trying this and double checking that the only thing that yielded any change was the swapping of parts so I ordered a chamber ring, hopefully that will solve this headache. I'll let you know. Lanky Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lankyframe #44046 Posted August 30, 2016 Author Share Posted August 30, 2016 As promised here's an update. I put in a new barrel chamber ring. this was a new piece that needed final machining. I took it to a friend with a lathe, after careful machining all fit very well. Put in the gun and still got misfires Lanky Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coyote Cap, SASS Life #14184 Posted August 30, 2016 Share Posted August 30, 2016 Lankyframe, Open the action and look at the bolt face. Does the firing pin hole look to be off centered when compared to the brass ring on the bolt face? If so - - - Close the action to 1/2 inch open, then grab the right extractor and pull the bolt left and right, if there is any more than 1/16" movement, the rail guide tab on the left extractor has broken, allowing which ever extractor has the strongest spring, to pull the bolt out-of-alignment to the chamber and out-of-alignment to the primer. If that is the case, the left extractor is junk and cannot be repaired and must be replaced. The cause of a broken left extractor rail guide tab is not getting the hook, back in alignment as the the hook screw is tightend. The screw feels like it is getting tight, but in actuality, the left extractor rail guide tab is being bent and finally breaks, causing the problem you are addressing! I have other thoughts, this is just one of them. Your ol pard - "Cap" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lankyframe #44046 Posted September 1, 2016 Author Share Posted September 1, 2016 I've taken out both extractors and they look fine, no burrs or rough spots. I guess I just won't shoot Federals or Estates in this gun anymore Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Original Lumpy Gritz Posted September 1, 2016 Share Posted September 1, 2016 I've taken out both extractors and they look fine, no burrs or rough spots. I guess I just won't shoot Federals or Estates in this gun anymore Re read what Cap just posted-He's 'talking' about side-to-side bolt movement and it's cause..... Good luck, OLG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lankyframe #44046 Posted September 1, 2016 Author Share Posted September 1, 2016 The left extractor is not broken Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Original Lumpy Gritz Posted September 1, 2016 Share Posted September 1, 2016 Is there any way you can post pictures of the bolt, both extractors, carrier along with the trigger group and such? OLG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coyote Cap, SASS Life #14184 Posted September 3, 2016 Share Posted September 3, 2016 Lanky Frame, I see you are signed up for our SASS Regional, "GUNSMOKE" this month, so please bring that scattergun with you and I will sort it out. What I would do, is to install two critical parts that are current technology. Those two parts are in every Cowboy Comp M-97. Saving old and badly worn Winchesters is what these parts can do. Wait-a-minute, maybe I shouldn't fix that misfiring problem, cuz then you can start beatin me again, but now that I think about it, you arn't old enough to shoot in my category anymore anyway! It's you young whippersnappers can't shoot in "Cattle Bum" category so I guess I got no worries about you beatin me anymore !!! See ya in a couple weeks ! Yer old pard - - - "Coyote Cap" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LQ Jones Posted September 3, 2016 Share Posted September 3, 2016 Ok, I'll bite. What are the "two critical parts" that no 97 should be without ? 😂 El Q Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coyote Cap, SASS Life #14184 Posted September 4, 2016 Share Posted September 4, 2016 Cowboy Competition spring loaded "Titanium" automatic safety firing pin and latest mainspring to match the new firing pin. These two parts are the biggest changes to the M-97 that have been desperately needed ever since Winchester stupidly installed the over sized and heavy (free floating) firing pin and coupled that with a mainspring so strong, that it caused serious wear and safety issues with every Winchester 97 built since the turn of the century "Cap" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LQ Jones Posted September 5, 2016 Share Posted September 5, 2016 Ok neat. Maybe I'll try em in mine. Thanks ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LQ Jones Posted September 5, 2016 Share Posted September 5, 2016 Ok neat - I'll try em Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lankyframe #44046 Posted September 6, 2016 Author Share Posted September 6, 2016 So why does this shotgun work flawlessly with Rem. Win. , Herters, and Rio brand shells? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sedalia Dave Posted September 6, 2016 Share Posted September 6, 2016 So why does this shotgun work flawlessly with Rem. Win. , Herters, and Rio brand shells? Each brand of shot shell is made slightly different. Get out a good pair of callipers and compare the shells. You will find slight variations in the average dimensions from brand to brand. I know for a fact that body of Federal Top Guns is slightly smaller in diameter than AA or STS hulls. My shotgun belt can easily tell the difference in how tightly they fit. As to why your 97 is picky; consider that you are asking an old gun designed over a century ago to perform in ways that the manufacturer never even considered. You probably have also fired more rounds through it than anyone at Winchester could have ever imagined possible. BTW I know of at least 2 other 97's that don't like Federals Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lankyframe #44046 Posted September 8, 2016 Author Share Posted September 8, 2016 There's been a lot of good conversation on this topic and I think Dave might be on to something. You get a gun that's pushing 90 yrs old and shells that might be pushing the limits on specs and put them together and you might get an occasional failure to fire. I know the Fed. and Estate primers are different shaped and that doesn't help either Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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