Correct Ammo Caliber for SASS

[Father Kit Cool Gun Garth]

I need a clarification of the correct ammo to purchase for my Lever Action Rifle and Revolvers.

I understand the guidelines on page 12 of the SASS Shooters Handbook which details the type of ammo that can be used, and the allowable rifle and revolver calibers as listed on page 9.

I am also aware of the common practice that most shooters follow, which is to use the same caliber ammo in both their rifle and revolvers. In addition, given the choice of either 38 caliber or 357 caliber ammo, they will choose the less expensive ammo, unless their particular firearm handles one of these calibers better than the other.

 

Now taking all of this in consideration, am I missing something regarding the authorization of the 357 ammo as a period correct ammo?

 

Wikipedia states that, "It is based upon Smith & Wesson's earlier .38 Special cartridge. The .357 Magnum cartridge was introduced in 1934, and its use has since become widespread."

 

Personally, I plan on shooting 38 caliber in both my Lever Action Rifle and Revolvers during SASS competitions.

Again, just my curiosity coming into play again, as a new shooter.

Thanks in advance for any educational input being provided.

[Two Dot, 14911]

357 is fine

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

Previous discussion on this topic:

 

HERE

[Grizzly Dave]

This is a period themed shooting sport/game, not a historically dogmatic reenactment game.

[Trailrider #896]

The .357 Magnum cartridge is simply the .38 Special lengthened primarily so the hot loads developed in the 1930's couldn't be used in older, weaker guns. So far as the use of rifles and revolvers chambered for .357 Magnum in SASS matches is concerned, there is no problem so long as lead alloy bullets are used, and muzzle velocity of ammo does not exceed 1,000 fps from a revolver (probably a 7-1/2" barrel). Yes, many shooters use .38 Special ammo in their .357 Magnum-chambered guns. The only drawbacks to that is the desirability (necessity sometimes) of having to clean the chambers of powder fouling ahead of the mouth of the .38 Special brass. Also, some rifles may or may not feed .38 Special rounds reliably. Some rifles will, some won't. In the M1866 and '73 Winchesters, there are no cartridge stops, so it may be necessary to either use bullets long enough to keep the next round in the magazine from entering the lifter and jamming it, or to obtain the modified carrier, that will feed the shorter rounds. Some of the Rossi M1892's may also have problems feeding the shorter .38 Special rounds from the lifter into the chamber, due to the angled lifter. Loading .357 brass with smokeless powder to SASS specs isn't all that difficult, but, again the brass costs more. You pays your money and takes your choice. Hope this is of some help.

[Colorado Coffinmaker]

As PaleWolf Brunelle referenced, there are common mis-conceptions when discussing ammunition for CAS. Caliber is the SASS consideration. The cartridge is the shooters choice.

 

Understanding, Shooting 38 and 357 cartridges is NOT matching ammunition. Same same 44 Magnum vis 44 Russian.

 

Coffinmaker

[Father Kit Cool Gun Garth]

Thank you Palewolf for the thread reference.

I initially tried to find a thread on this topic; however, the items I entered (for example: 38 vs 357 or period correct ammo) didn't get me to the thread you referenced.

My intent wasn't to re-hash a previously discussed topic.

[Driftwood Johnson, SASS #38283]

Howdy

 

Just so you know, Wikipedia is off by one year regarding when the 357 Magnum cartridge was introduced. It was introduced in 1935.

 

The 357 Magnum cartridge was a further development of a more powerful than standard 38 Special cartridge. Starting in 1930, Smith and Wesson developed a hot new load for the 38 Special. They also introduced at that time a large frame revolver capable of withstanding the higher pressure developed by the new not loaded 38 Special. The new revolver was built on the large N frame, as opposed to the medium sized K frames that had traditionally been the platform for the 38 Special. The larger frame and larger diameter cylinder of the new revolver meant that there was more metal surrounding the chambers when bored for a 38 Special cartridge. The new revolver was called the 38/44 Heavy Duty, because although it was chambered for the 38 Special cartridge, it was built on the N frame, which in the past had usually been relegated to 44 caliber revolvers.

 

Here is a photo of a Smith and Wesson 38/44 Heavy Duty revolver.

 

 

 

The next year, in 1931, Smith introduced an adjustable sight version called the 38/44 Outdoorsman.

 

 

The hot loaded 38 cartridge was known by various names; .38-44 S&W Special, and .38 Special High Velocity. But the problem was that since it had the same dimensions as the regular 38 Special cartridge it could be mistakenly loaded into a conventional K frame Smith, with disastrous results.

 

So the cartridge case was lengthened by about 1/10" and renamed the 357 Magnum in 1935. The longer cartridge could not be chambered in a conventional 38 Special revolver, so the safety problem had been addressed. It is said the 'Magnum' name was chosen because Douglas Wesson, who very actively promoted the new cartridge as a hunting cartridge, was a wine aficionado, and Magnum meant a big bottle of wine.

 

At the same time, a new revolver was introduced for the new cartridge. It was an updated version of the 38/44 Outdoorsman, and it was cataloged simply as The 357 Magnum revolver. The new revolver was custom made to the customer's specifications, and it was the top of the line in the S&W catalog, it carried some fancy features not present on any other S&W revolvers, including checkering on the barrel rib and the top strap. It sold for $75, $15 more than anything else in the catalog at the time, and S&W initiated a program to register the new revolvers to their owners. These were called the Registered Magnums, and they are very sought after by collectors today.

 

When S&W changed over to a numbering system for their products in 1957, The 357 Magnum revolver became the Model 27.

 

P.S. Try using the term Historically Accurate, instead of Period Correct. I dislike that term, it sounds too much like Politically Correct.

[Errol Plain]

Of course, there is nothing period correct or historically accurate about short strokes but hey....

[Hoss Carpenter]

What ever caliber you chose to shoot in SASS, it sure makes sense to shoot the same one in rifle/carbine and pistol. I speak from experience and not a good one. For a short time years ago I shot one pistol in 44-40 and one in 45 Colt. Nuff said! cheers, Hoss

[El Hombre Sin Nombre]

What ever caliber you chose to shoot in SASS, it sure makes sense to shoot the same one in rifle/carbine and pistol. I speak from experience and not a good one. For a short time years ago I shot one pistol in 44-40 and one in 45 Colt. Nuff said! cheers, Hoss

This is hardly a requirement, nor even a necessity. I shoot 45 colt pistols and either 44-40 or 38-40 rifles every match. I have yet to get them confused. There are also a lot of loading blocks available that have separate areas for pistol and rifle. Usually two cylinder like set ups with 5 holes each and another area with two rows of 5 for rifles. It's really not that difficult and allows you to use more "Historically Accurate" combinations.

[irish ike, SASS #43615]

Yup, 32-20 to 45 Colt.

As to short strokes,,,,,they were created many years ago. Which wold make them part of SASS history. And then historically correct.

And what has this to do with calibers?

Ike

[Blackey Cole]

Several of the calibers used in sass today didn't exist during the time period of our sport. Remember they were still using rim fire ammo a lot back then

[Abe E.S. Corpus SASS #87667]

If you are purchasing factory ammo, be sure that it is compliant with the rules governing bullet (lead only) and velocity.

 

I'd avoid buying a large quantity before confirming that your rifle will feed it. I recall a new shooter who bought a well known brand of .38 Special RNL ammo that his new rifle absolutely refused to feed.

[Driftwood Johnson, SASS #38283]

 

This is hardly a requirement, nor even a necessity. I shoot 45 colt pistols and either 44-40 or 38-40 rifles every match. I have yet to get them confused. There are also a lot of loading blocks available that have separate areas for pistol and rifle. Usually two cylinder like set ups with 5 holes each and another area with two rows of 5 for rifles. It's really not that difficult and allows you to use more "Historically Accurate" combinations.

 

Yup

 

No rule against shooting different calibers in your guns. Most days it is 45 Colt in my pistols and 44-40 in my rifle. Been doing that since day one in CAS. A loading block like this helps minimize mistakes. Other days, depending on what guns I brought it may be 44-40 in one pistol, 44 Russian in the other, and even 38-40 in the rifle. The main thing is to pay attention, when you are loading the guns. That goes a long way towards avoiding problems.

 

Since I can only concentrate on one thing at a time, I ask folks not to talk to me while I am loading.

 

 

[Griff]

"Caliber" is often only half the story when discussing "CARTRIDGES". The two terms are NOT interchangeable. While for SASS purposes, all legal cartridges use bullets of a variety of calibers, (from .32x thru .45x), not all SASS legal calibers require a cartridge!

[Deadeye George]

I guess I would put the 357 cartridge in the same category as using smokeless powder in any cartridge............ neither situations are historically accurate or period correct but I wouldn't worry about either!

[El Hombre Sin Nombre]

 

Yup

 

No rule against shooting different calibers in your guns. Most days it is 45 Colt in my pistols and 44-40 in my rifle. Been doing that since day one in CAS. A loading block like this helps minimize mistakes. Other days, depending on what guns I brought it may be 44-40 in one pistol, 44 Russian in the other, and even 38-40 in the rifle. The main thing is to pay attention, when you are loading the guns. That goes a long way towards avoiding problems.

 

Since I can only concentrate on one thing at a time, I ask folks not to talk to me while I am loading.

 

 

And marking the cases like that helps as well. I have a system where 45 are marked blue, 44-40 red, and 38-40 green. It keeps things simple if I do manage to get distracted at the loading table.

 

I guess I would put the 357 cartridge in the same category as using smokeless powder in any cartridge............ neither situations are historically accurate or period correct but I wouldn't worry about either!

I have heard of 357 cartridges, but never heard of smokeless powder. What is this smokeless powder you are referring to?

[Springfield Slim SASS #24733]

44-40 cartridges work in 45 Colt guns. They don't work well, but they work! I've got the blown out brass to prove it.

[Trailrider #896]

Well, Driftwood is being "historically correct" in using .45 Colt in his sixgun and .44-40 (aka .44 WCF) in his rifle. In point of fact, before Colt's, et al, chambered their sixguns in .44-40, this was a common practice. But a Texas Ranger Lloyd George got into a fight with some hostile Indians. In the middle of this firefight, he accidentally loaded a .45 Colt (aka .45 Long Colt or .45 LC) into his Winchester M1873, jamming the rifle! Ranger George used his pocket knife to unscrew the screw holding the sideplates from the rifle, dug out the offending round, reassembled the rifle, and survived the battle! Fortunately, in those days the M1860 Henry Repeating Rifle was NOT chambered in .44 WCF. If Ranger George had gotten a .45 LC round in a Henry, it would have taken at least 15-20 minutes to get the bad round out of the rifle, as you have to disassemble a lot more to get the sideplates out! Wanna know how I know?

[Kulshan 20262]

44-40 cartridges work in 45 Colt guns. They don't work well, but they work! I've got the blown out brass to prove it.

38-40 will also "Work" in 44-40 and 45. Back in the previous millennium a guy that owned an auto parts store in Austin TX showed me his Colt 44-40, it was loaded with 38-40, when I called it to his attention he said "Well, it shoots".

[Deadeye George]

One thing I just don't understand is why there are so many members here who always chime in saying which cartridges can be used in guns chambered for other cartridges. Is ammo or reloading supplies becoming so rare that reloaders are looking to make ends meet by firing cartridges in guns that they were not intended for?

 

To me, this is just stupid not to mention those new to shooting reading about the ammo substitutes thinking..........Cool, I can shoot 44-40's in my revolver if I run out of 45 Colt ammo!

[Jabez Cowboy,SASS # 50129]

Well neither .38 Special Nor .357 Mag were around pre-1900 ,,,,, But both are used in this game ...

I think .44 centre fire long ( .44 Special ) is more fun , as are .38-40 and .45 colts ....

 

 

Jabez Cowboy

[Chicago Ken]

Yo, don't screw with my game man...LOL.. I shoot 357 cases at bunny fart power. 357 cycles through my Uberti much better than 38.

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

Well neither .38 Special Nor .357 Mag were around pre-1900 ,,,,, But both are used in this game ...

I think .44 centre fire long ( .44 Special ) is more fun , as are .38-40 and .45 colts ....

 

 

Jabez Cowboy

 

.38 Special was introduced in 1898 as a BP cartridge.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.38_Special#History​

[Phiren Smoke GUNFIGHTER]

Well neither .38 Special Nor .357 Mag were around pre-1900 ,,,,, But both are used in this game ...

I think .44 centre fire long ( .44 Special ) is more fun , as are .38-40 and .45 colts ....

 

 

Jabez Cowboy

According to Wiki, the 38 sp was introduced in 1898 making it almost as period correct as a certain pump shotgun. Pale Wolf beat me to it. Wiki also says the 44 sp was introduced in 1908.

 

If you want to be period correct I say go for it shoot what you can buy or reproduce that meets the rules. If you want to shoot cas as inexpensively as possible I say go for it shoot what you can buy or reproduce that meets the rules.

 

Good luck in your quest,

 

Smoke

[Three Foot Johnson]

If you really want to see heads explode, shoot 9mm, .40, or .45 acp convertible Blackhawks or Vaqueros. (Or Uberti's)

[Kulshan 20262]

Deadeye George, you need to "read between the lines". These other rounds mentioned above do not work properly at all. Can you imagine a 40 caliber bullet rattling down a 44 caliber bore, with most of the gas from the powder getting out ahead of it. 44-40 in a 45 would not be much better.

[Driftwood Johnson, SASS #38283]

 

According to Wiki, the 38 sp was introduced in 1898 making it almost as period correct as a certain pump shotgun. Pale Wolf beat me to it. Wiki also says the 44 sp was introduced in 1908.

Howdy Again

 

I seldom turn to Wiki for accurate information about firearms, instead I turn to the shelf full of reference books I have.

 

Not sure exactly when the 38 Special was developed, it was either 1898 or 1899. Smith and Wesson had been working on an improved Hand Ejector revolver that would be more powerful than the 1896 32 Hand Ejector. The new revolver was going to be chambered at first for the 38 Long Colt service cartridge, but that cartridge got a lot of bad press as not being powerful enough. D.B. Wesson suggested to his son Joseph to increase the length of the 38 Long Colt cartridge to allow the powder charge to be increased from 18 grains of powder to 21.5 grains. Yes, Black Powder. The bullet weight was increased from 150 grains to 158 grains.

 

The new cartridge was introduced with the 38 Hand Ejector Model of 1899. Here is an over polished and refinished Model of 1899. Note the lack of a latch in front of the ejector rod.

 

 

 

 

 

The 44 Special was first introduced in 1908 along with the 44 Hand Ejector 1st Model, also known as the New Century, but affectionately known to collectors as the Triple-Lock because of the third cylinder latch at the front of the frame and on the yoke.

 

This nickel plated Triple-Lock shipped in 1915.

 

 

 

 

 

This photo shows the plunger of the third latch slung under the standard latch in the ejector shroud.

 

 

 

 

This photo shows the hardened insert mounted in the cylinder yoke that received the plunger.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Driftwood Johnson, SASS #38283]

 

44-40 in a 45 would not be much better.

 

Phooey!

 

I have fired 44-40 rounds out of my 45 Colts. Five rounds, normal CAS distance, hit the target with all five shots. I don't recommend it as a normal practice, it is hell on the brass, but it sure works in a pinch. One of these days I will try the same thing with 38-40 out of a 45 Colt or 44-40. I mentioned I did this once on another board and you should have heard all the guys who thought I was lucky the gun didn't blow up. Thought I was playing with fire. Guys who probably never handled a 44-40 round in their lives!

 

I think you might be surprised at how the bullets will hit the target anyway. We are not talking about precise target shooting accuracy here, we are talking about targets that are quite large and close. As far as 'rattling down the bore' is concerned, I have heard that for years. I doubt it. I suspect the bullet will just glance off the rifling maybe once or twice before it exits a pistol barrel, I doubt if it will be bouncing back and forth all the way down the barrel.

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

 

.38 Special was introduced in 1898 as a BP cartridge.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.38_Special#History​

 

The footnote citation references a 2005 article by Clint Smith.

That was also the basis for allowing .38 Special for "Plainsman" sidematch use as a "traditional blackpowder rifle or revolver caliber cartridge" .

[Blackey Cole]

I was back east visiting and went to a monthly match. Normally I shoot 38-40 but this day I had grabbed my 45 colt rifle. I'm at the loading table for the first stage. My routine goes like this normally I use a loading block or strip with rifle ammo on one side revolver on the other forgot it this day. I load the rifle then go to load the revolver and it clicks that I brought the wrong rifle I quickly unload it run back to the truck where I luckily had some 45 cowboy loads grabbed them they turn out to be smokeless but the ammo for the revolver was bp and I'm shooting classic cowboy. So I shot two different poster types in two different calibers. I ended up placing even after dropping an unloaded revolver at the unloading table. But had fun that day once it warmed up some.

[Phiren Smoke GUNFIGHTER]

 

 

I seldom turn to Wiki for accurate information about firearms, instead I turn to the shelf full of reference books I have.

 

 

I agree Wiki is not the best reference on any subject, but sitting here at my computer it was the closest.

 

Smoke

[Driftwood Johnson, SASS #38283]

I am referencing Roy Jinks in his 1977 book History of Smith and Wesson. Roy is the official S&W historian.

[Deadeye George]

Last year when I first started shooting 45Colt in my revolvers and 44-40 in my rifle, I accidentally loaded ten 45 Colt cartridges in my rifle and of course it jammed the receiver with the first round so lesson learned. In a thread discussing how dumb I was, Driftwood Johnson helped by posting a photo of a block he had made separating the two cartridges (the same block shown above). So, taking his idea, I made my own loading blocks but with a slight twist.

 

Having a CNC mill, I have the capability to cut any hole at precise diameters so I cut the holes so only the proper case would fit into each side, either rifle or revolvers. It's fail proof since there is no way the wrong case can be put in the wrong hole and slide the lid over.

 

I think once trying to lever a 45 Colt round in a 44-40 chamber while on the clock is embarrassing enough, I'll not do that again!