Rev Willy Dunkum, SASS # 61027 Posted August 9, 2016 Share Posted August 9, 2016 I picked up a nice pair of EMF nickeled 1875 Remington pistols in 44-40. I tried them out last weekend at a match with full BP Goex loads and spritzed them between each stage with Murphy's mix and or Ballistol. Each stage was very difficult to rotate the cylinders due to fouling. Anyone else have any problems with these guns? I have not measured the cylinder gaps yet but figures it needs opened up. Rev Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lefty Dude, SASS # 51223 Posted August 9, 2016 Share Posted August 9, 2016 The barrel/cylinder might be excessive, giving you a lot of blow-by. Are you using a lube cookie, or a bullet with enough BP Lube on the bullet ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colorado Coffinmaker Posted August 9, 2016 Share Posted August 9, 2016 I have two immediate knee jerk thoughts. First. As you have mentioned, you need to check your Barrel/Cylinder gap and check that the Breach Face of the barrel is square to the Cylinder Face. Next thought is to drop your cylinder out after each stage and wipe down the Cylinder Face and the Breach end of the Barrel. Many will tell you you shouldn't have to do that, but fouling of the cylinder face is going to happen. Just plan for it. Coffinmaker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rev Willy Dunkum, SASS # 61027 Posted August 9, 2016 Author Share Posted August 9, 2016 I probably didn't have enough lube on the bullets to begin with, thought I'd fudge a bit and had a very thin sliced pre lubed wad on a regular lead RNFP. I did wipe down the cylinder and face between 3 stages. I did notice a noticeable drag on one of the cylinders of one gun even before I started. I will check the face, forgot about that. Rev I've got Big Lube bullets on the way, I'm just out right now. Edit: Remind me again what kind of gap I should need. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bull Skinner Posted August 9, 2016 Share Posted August 9, 2016 Rev, I have a pair Rugers with .005 gap and another pair with .006. They work fine. That being said my others are at the gap quoted by conventional wisdom, namely .008. If you have to open them up that's the gap I'd go for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Driftwood Johnson, SASS #38283 Posted August 9, 2016 Share Posted August 9, 2016 Howdy In my experience, a narrow barrel/cylinder gap is seldom the culprit with revolver cylinders that bind up with Black Powder fouling. The real culprit is usually the bushing (or lack of one) at the front of the cylinder. The function of a bushing at the front of the cylinder is to shield the cylinder pin from fouling blasted out of the barrel cylinder gap. If fouling accumulates on the cylinder pin, it will work its way between the pin and the cylinder and cause the cylinder to bind. The Cap & Ball Remington 1858 was (is) particularly bad in this regard. Here are two 1858 cylinders, a cartridge conversion cylinder on the left and a C&B cylinder on the right. There is no bushing on the front of the cylinders, they are flat faced. What happens with these guns is the fouling gets blasted out of the barrel/cylinder gap directly onto the cylinder pin, where it works its way into the hole in the cylinder and causes the cylinder to bind. Left to right, these cylinders are from an Uberti Cattleman, a Ruger Vaquero, and a 2nd Gen Colt. Notice each cylinder has a prominent bushing at the front of the cylinder. The bushing is an integral part of the Ruger cylinder, the bushings on the Uberti and the Colt are removable. Here are the Uberti cylinder on the left and the Colt cylinder on the right, with their bushings pulled out. The Colt, Uberti, and Ruger shoot Black Powder very well, it has nothing to do with the barrel/cylinder gaps. It is the fact that the bushings shield the cylinder pin from a buildup of powder fouling. I'm working from memory now because Blackerby refuses to sell me his 1875 Remington. But my recollection is that although Remington learned their lesson from the 1858, and did incorporate a bushing, it is not a very tall bushing, and does not do a terrific job of preventing fouling from reaching the cylinder pin. Here are some hard numbers for you. The cylinder bushing on my Colt stands about .080 proud of the cylinder face. The bushing on the Ruger is huge, it stands .125 proud of the cylinder face. What that means is, the point at which the cylinder pin emerges from the cylinder is .080 in front of the barrel/cylinder gap on the Colt and .125 in front of the barrel/cylinder gap on the Ruger. With these bushings, both of these guns shoot exceedingly well with Black Powder, they never bind up, and that is with the original factory barrel/cylinder gaps. So is there a bushing on the front of the Remington cylinder, and if so, how proud is it of the cylinder? That will be your answer right there. Much less than .080 or so and a bushing cannot successfully deflect powder fouling away from the cylinder pin. By the way, the original spec for the barrel/cylinder gap on Black Powder 1st Generation Colts was .008. This was later reduced to .006 in Smokeless days. So before you go filing down the rear of the barrel, measure the gap first. All my revolvers that I shoot with Black Powder have their original barrel/cylinder gaps, I have not opened up any of them. They are all between .005 and .008. If you open up the barrel/cylinder gap you may be spraying more fouling onto the cylinder pin and may make matters worse. Other than that, before you go removing any metal, what kind of lube are you putting on your bullets? The more soft, gooey Black Powder compatible bullet lube you put on your bullets, the better. I only shoot Big Lube bullets in my revolvers with Black Powder. These bullets have HUGE lube grooves, and carry enough lube to keep the fouling ejected from the barrel/cylinder gap soft. If the dry, crusty fouling builds up on the face of the cylinder, that too can bind up a cylinder. I use SPG on my Big Lube bullets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rev Willy Dunkum, SASS # 61027 Posted August 9, 2016 Author Share Posted August 9, 2016 Thanks all, good info that I needed to remember. I have Big Lube bullets I normally use from Springfield Slim. I had run out so fouling was more than usual. I will have to measure the gaps and get back to you. I don't want to grab the file till I'm absolutely sure its necessary. I had extensive work to do on the Uberti 1872 conversions before I could reliably shoot BP gunfighter with them. I had thought these 1875 conversions would have been ready to go without the arbor length issue of the others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bull Skinner Posted August 9, 2016 Share Posted August 9, 2016 Rev, as usual Driftwood has got the answer. I searched "1875 Remington BP" on this forum and a thread from Sept. Of 2014 came up in which Driftwood and others address the issue. The concensus was what Driftwood told you above. It's not the cylinder gap it's the fouling on the cylinder pin due to little or no bushing. I would coat the cylinder pin liberally with bore butter. And use Slims big lubes and see if that works before any gun modification if I were you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prairie Dawg, SASS #50329 Posted August 9, 2016 Share Posted August 9, 2016 Here's three pics of a Remmie and its cylinder from a gun I bought from Larsen Pettifogger. In the first, you can compare it to your Remmie, and you see that he took down the frame a bit to make room for the cylinder bushing In the 2nd one, the standard Remmie cylinder is on the right (you can see the bushing sticking out at the bottom). Larsen's is on the left. The 3rd picture shows a coupla views of Larsen'd cylinder. It is the only Remmie I own that shoots BP without fouling out before yer even done with a stage. --Dawg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cowboy Rick, SASS #49739L Posted August 9, 2016 Share Posted August 9, 2016 With all my Rugers, I had to increase the cylinder gap to at least .006" to eliminate the binding. Feels and acts like a high primer. My theory is that BP will build up hard to a few thou and, when thicker, can be easily displaced. 4 pair and the same problem and solution for all. CR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Driftwood Johnson, SASS #38283 Posted August 9, 2016 Share Posted August 9, 2016 With all my Rugers, I had to increase the cylinder gap to at least .006" to eliminate the binding. Feels and acts like a high primer. My theory is that BP will build up hard to a few thou and, when thicker, can be easily displaced. 4 pair and the same problem and solution for all. Howdy Again Yes, your Rugers will have good bushings on the front of the cylinder, so that base is covered. Depending on how much lube, and what kind of lube is on your bullets, you may get hard fouling building up on the front of the cylinder. A really good soft lube should prevent that from happening. As I said before, all my revolvers that I use to shoot Black Powder have cylinder gaps between .005 and .008. I even have an old Blackhawk that is tight, around .003. I was surprised when I was able to get through a match shooting Black Powder through it a bunch of years ago. But I was shooting Big Lube bullets with lots of SPG. As I said before, Colt used to spec the gap at .008 in Black Powder days, but later reduced it to .006. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cowboy Rick, SASS #49739L Posted August 9, 2016 Share Posted August 9, 2016 Howdy Again Yes, your Rugers will have good bushings on the front of the cylinder, so that base is covered. Depending on how much lube, and what kind of lube is on your bullets, you may get hard fouling building up on the front of the cylinder. A really good soft lube should prevent that from happening. As I said before, all my revolvers that I use to shoot Black Powder have cylinder gaps between .005 and .008. I even have an old Blackhawk that is tight, around .003. I was surprised when I was able to get through a match shooting Black Powder through it a bunch of years ago. But I was shooting Big Lube bullets with lots of SPG. As I said before, Colt used to spec the gap at .008 in Black Powder days, but later reduced it to .006. Driftwood, I use Big Lube 200gr bullets. I found that Ruger uses a small factory cylinder gap. I had one gun that would not pass a .001" feeler gauge. I use Diamondback (Elephant) FFg or FFFg, with some occasional Schutzen (or Graff's). Once opened to .006" I can shoot all day. Much more fun when shooting GF & you can make all 5 go bang CR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
linn county ranger,sass#34021 Posted August 9, 2016 Share Posted August 9, 2016 If you look at the original Remingtons the cylinder pin had a cross hatch cut to help retain lube also. On my 58 with a Kirst conversion I widened the cylinder to frame gap cross hatched the cylinder pin, that will usually get me through 2 stages. To make it through 5 or more stages I have to put my lube in the cylinders. Scott Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cowboy Rick, SASS #49739L Posted August 9, 2016 Share Posted August 9, 2016 If you look at the original Remingtons the cylinder pin had a cross hatch cut to help retain lube also. On my 58 with a Kirst conversion I widened the cylinder to frame gap cross hatched the cylinder pin, that will usually get me through 2 stages. To make it through 5 or more stages I have to put my lube in the cylinders. Scott Are you still alive??? Swing by once in a while CR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rev Willy Dunkum, SASS # 61027 Posted August 10, 2016 Author Share Posted August 10, 2016 I'm here, had to take care of family issues so was off a day from confuser here. So it appears there is no bushing on these. I will try to take pics but how to put bushings on these? I'll bring them to the IL/IN state match if any of ya'll will be there. Rev Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
linn county ranger,sass#34021 Posted August 10, 2016 Share Posted August 10, 2016 Are you still alive??? Swing by once in a while CR Yes Shasta and I are still kicking. Do you still shoot in Milan and Shady Creek? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Driftwood Johnson, SASS #38283 Posted August 10, 2016 Share Posted August 10, 2016 I'm here, had to take care of family issues so was off a day from confuser here. So it appears there is no bushing on these. I will try to take pics but how to put bushings on these? Howdy Again I don't have one in front of me, but I seem to recall the 1875 model did have a small bushing on the front of the cylinder. Check again. If not, it takes a talented gunsmith to add one. A bushing has to be made up on the lathe and it has to be set into a counterbore in the cylinder. The diameter of the cylinder pin will dictate the diameter of the hole through the bushing. The amount of area available between the chambers will determine the outer diameter. There must of course be enough metal left on the cylinder so its strength is not compromised. Then a relief has to be cut in the frame to allow for the added length of the bushing. Not an impossible task for a talented gunsmith, but not something your typical kitchen table gunsmith should attempt. Regarding adding grooves or cross hatching to the cylinder pin to hold additional lube, this is a good idea. I cut some grooves into the cylinder pins on my 1858 Remmies that I usually shoot with cartridge conversion cylinders. But it is not a complete solution. Since I have to remove the cylinder every time I load this revolver anyway, I always wipe the powder fouling off the front face of the cylinder with a damp rag while I am loading. That combined with some bore butter slathered on the cylinder pin keeps my Remmies shooting for five rounds each. However if I don't wipe off the cylinder pin every time I load it up, it will usually bind up. And that is with Big Lube JP 45/200 bullets filled to the brim with SPG. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cowboy Rick, SASS #49739L Posted August 10, 2016 Share Posted August 10, 2016 Yes Shasta and I are still kicking. Do you still shoot in Milan and Shady Creek? and anywhere SASS is shot! Come on over for Fall Roundup at the end of Sept? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trailrider #896 Posted August 10, 2016 Share Posted August 10, 2016 The original Whitney Navy .36 cap-and-ball had similar problems with fouling out! Of course it was designed by Fordyce Beal, who designed the Remmies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rev Willy Dunkum, SASS # 61027 Posted August 10, 2016 Author Share Posted August 10, 2016 Prairie Dawg and Driftwood, you are correct, both cylinders have a very, very small bushing on them. I measured the cylinder gap on each at .002. With them also being nickel plated, will it be a problem having them worked over so they will be reliable? Looks like a re-nickel job may be in order. Does Larson still do this work or someone else? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rev Willy Dunkum, SASS # 61027 Posted August 10, 2016 Author Share Posted August 10, 2016 Rev, as usual Driftwood has got the answer. I searched "1875 Remington BP" on this forum and a thread from Sept. Of 2014 came up in which Driftwood and others address the issue. The concensus was what Driftwood told you above. It's not the cylinder gap it's the fouling on the cylinder pin due to little or no bushing. I would coat the cylinder pin liberally with bore butter. And use Slims big lubes and see if that works before any gun modification if I were you. Bull, I think I will try this too but with a gap of .002, I'm afraid it won't help much. We will see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prairie Dawg, SASS #50329 Posted August 10, 2016 Share Posted August 10, 2016 I don't know. The Remmie that I bought from Larsen was his own personal gun. The easiest alternative would be to shoot APP out of that particular gun. --Dawg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rev Willy Dunkum, SASS # 61027 Posted August 13, 2016 Author Share Posted August 13, 2016 Dawg, I'll give that a try too. I hate not to be able to shoot BP out of such nice pistolas. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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