WTC shooter getting wrong info

[Rye Miles #13621]

This came up today, if a spotters yells at a shooter that he's doing something wrong or about to do something wrong and the spotter is wrong then what? It's still on the shooter to know better right? Now, is there a difference when the RO tells him he's doing something wrong and the RO is wrong? Is it still on the shooter?

 

Hmmmmm…………..

[Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933]

see below.

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

This came up today, if a spotters yells at a shooter that he's doing something wrong or about to do something wrong and the spotter is wrong then what? It's still on the shooter to know better right? Now, is there a difference when the RO tells him he's doing something wrong and the RO is wrong? Is it still on the shooter?

 

Hmmmmm…………..

 

"Spotters" are on the list of Range Officer positions in the RO1 (pp. 8-9).

If a spotter gives a range command in error that causes hesitation on the part of the shooter, that is generally grounds for a reshoot for "impeding the progress of the shooter".

(RO1 p.23)

The same "proper coaching" rules apply to spotters as to the timer operator.

BUT...the shooter is expected to know better than to perform an UNSAFE action, regardless of who might be yelling (e.g. "MOVE!" with a cocked/loaded firearm in hand)

 

It depends on what/why the spotter is yelling at the shooter.

 

FWIW - Most of the reshoots at EoT this year were due to misunderstandings of the ACTION OPEN rule revision.

[Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933]

 

"Spotters" are on the list of Range Officer positions in the RO1 (pp. 8-9).

If a spotter gives a range command in error that causes hesitation on the part of the shooter, that is generally grounds for a reshoot for "impeding the progress of the shooter".

(RO1 p.23)

The same "proper coaching" rules apply to spotters as to the timer operator.

BUT...the shooter is expected to know better than to perform an UNSAFE action, regardless of who might be yelling (e.g. "MOVE!" with a cocked/loaded firearm in hand)

 

It depends on what/why the spotter is yelling at the shooter.

 

FWIW - Most of the reshoots at EoT this year were due to misunderstandings of the ACTION OPEN rule revision.

I deleted my answer but this is part of the confusion. A range command is a defined term. The what/why is variable. If some-one yells the range command "cease fire" or "stop" that is clear. It is the other advice covered by the "what/why" that can cause questions.

[Jackalope]

 

If a spotter gives a range command in error that causes hesitation on the part of the shooter, that is generally grounds for a reshoot for "impeding the progress of the shooter".

(RO1 p.23)

 

If a non-spotting posse member yells out an incorrect instruction, then the shooter does not get a reshoot ... is this correct? How is the shooter supposed to know if the instruction is coming from a "range officer" or a "helpful" posse member?

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

 

If a non-spotting posse member yells out an incorrect instruction, then the shooter does not get a reshoot ... is this correct?

YES.

One of the reasons for that policy is to prevent "team shooting" and "buddy posses" in which some shooters are given unwarranted reshoots for "interference" whenever they are having a bad stage (i.e. CHEATING)

 

How is the shooter supposed to know if the instruction is coming from a "range officer" or a "helpful" posse member?

Unless the shooter is "tuned in" to only pay attention & listen to the T/O and/or spotters, about the only solution is for the T/O to advise the shooter to ignore the "peanut gallery" (if in error) and continue with the stage...

followed by a reminder from the PM to the rest of the posse to "cease & desist" with the "help".

 

[Ventura Slim, SASS #35690]

You own the stage.

[Sagebrush Burns, SASS # 14226]

If I, as TO, give the shooter wrong instructions, I will offer them a re-shoot. If I'm the TO and one of the spotters gives wrong instructions, I will offer a re-shoot

[Wyatt]

Is it within the authority of a spotter as a Range Officer to offer the shooter a reshoot?

[Hoss]

Is it within the authority of a spotter as a Range Officer to offer the shooter a reshoot?

I would say no. The TO is "Chief Range officer" and is the one who assigns penalties. Book does not specifically say awards re-shoots, but I would think it would fall to him, or MD. A good TO would certainly take into account spotters input.

 

RO II PG 7 Item L

 

L) It is up to the Timer Operator to verify at least two of the three Spotters agree on misses. The Timer Operator should consider input from the Spotters regarding procedurals and/or safety violations as well as personal observations during the stage. Final determination regarding assessment of penalties is made by the Timer Operator

[Wyatt]

RO 1 PG 4

 

Proper coaching is not considered RO interference and, therefore, will never be grounds for a reshoot. Improper coaching that either impedes the shooters progress or results in a procedural penalty may be grounds for a reshoot.

[Blastmaster]

It seems the trend is going to: Say nothing as a TO or spotter. Let the shooter figure out the brain fade and either they sink or swim during the stage. This is in fear of giving a quick bad advice and having to offer a reshoot. There is nothing wrong with saying nothing.

[Hoss]

Blastmaster, you are correct in nothing wrong with saying nothing, but, if you can assist a shooter, or save him from himself, you should. I've had experienced shooters tell me "no coaching please" before they start the stage. In that case as the Rev Johnson say's "you're on your own". I've also had experienced shooters ask me to remind them "start on right" or something. I try to do so, but if I forget, its not grounds for a reshoot.

[Shooting Bull]

It seems the trend is going to: Say nothing as a TO or spotter. Let the shooter figure out the brain fade and either they sink or swim during the stage. This is in fear of giving a quick bad advice and having to offer a reshoot. There is nothing wrong with saying nothing.

 

I agree but think that's a sad testimony of the way things are going. People are becoming so afraid of giving incorrect information that they don't bother giving correct information. They seem to forget one of the foremost duties of the TO is to safety guide the shooter through the stage. As Hoss pointed out, some shooters don't want help and indicate that before the stage begins. Most other shooters welcome some friendly guidance to help get the train back on its tracks when things go south.

[Kid Rich]

It seems the trend is going to: Say nothing as a TO or spotter. Let the shooter figure out the brain fade and either they sink or swim during the stage. This is in fear of giving a quick bad advice and having to offer a reshoot. There is nothing wrong with saying nothing.

Where would the disaster be in a shooter getting a reshoot? Why would anyone fear having a Cowboy getting a reshoot? I would rather try to help someone by saying something and be wrong than not say something and have them get a penalty. Guess that's called the cowboy way. kR

[Eyesa Horg]

I try to "own my stage", although have found that I hear advice and pay attention to it depending on what's said. IE: Which end to start on: if I already know, it seems to go in one ear & out the other. ( I always hear the wind whistling thru too! ). But, sometimes it saves me a "P"

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

I'm all for offering a reshoot when any improper instruction is given the shooter, and in the opinion of the TO, that instruction impeded the progress of the shooter.

 

I have, over the last couple of years, come to dislike the "speed up the match" and/or "anti-cheating" directives that have been given at our highest level matches that have been interpreted as "No reshoots, unless you get Chief Range Officer permission." If the Rule Books contain the rules for who can give a reshoot and under what conditions, it's not really respecting the authority of the Posse Marshals at those matches to take away what the Rule Books say is their decision.

 

Let's be careful what we do to try to speed things up or to protect the match from sketchy Posse Marshals. If we don't have integrity from the Posse Marshals we have selected, well, then, better make better selections of Marshals. But at this point, I think we are micro-managing large matches a little too much.

 

Let's have one set of rules and then stick to them and make them work as written.

 

So, yep, between the TO and the Posse Marshal, they are the ones who saw poor advice happen. If they think it warrants a reshoot, give it. If they think "buddy help" was yelled out in order to earn a reshoot for a buddy, well, then, don't grant the reshoot. The folks on the line with the shooter are almost always in the best position to make a decision about when a reshoot is really justified.

 

Just my HO. GJ

[Blastmaster]

Wouldn't it be lovely if posses were made up by 'total random' selection? Of course, keep family members and significant others together.

 

Have the shooters numbered as their entry form was received. With that numbering, at close of application acceptance, run a random number generator to select shooter number with posse number until posse was filled. Of course, pre select your PM and assign them to a posse #, then assign the drawing shooters to that posse.

 

Just saying.

[Grizzly Dave]

Wouldn't it be lovely if posses were made up by 'total random' selection? Of course, keep family members and significant others together.

 

Have the shooters numbered as their entry form was received. With that numbering, at close of application acceptance, run a random number generator to select shooter number with posse number until posse was filled. Of course, pre select your PM and assign them to a posse #, then assign the drawing shooters to that posse.

 

Just saying.

 

No thanks.

 

There are folks I might only see at Winter Range or a particular match, so I request to posse with them. No harm no foul. Spending time with people is a lot of the fun of going to such matches, and with 3 waves if a person isn't on your posse, it may be difficult to catch up with them much.

 

Address the 'cheating' and 'buddy posse' issues, don't penalize everyone for what a few are doing.

[Blastmaster]

 

No thanks.

 

There are folks I might only see at Winter Range or a particular match, so I request to posse with them. No harm no foul. Spending time with people is a lot of the fun of going to such matches, and with 3 waves if a person isn't on your posse, it may be difficult to catch up with them much.

 

Address the 'cheating' and 'buddy posse' issues, don't penalize everyone for what a few are doing.

Griz,

 

I already knew it wouldn't fly when I posted it.

 

People could still socialize with friends before and after the match day and at lunch time, if it was important. Just how much socializing takes place when you are on the ULT and friend(s) are shooting or doing posse chores? Of course, you can not video tape someone if they are on another posse.

 

There are other reasons people can give to not want a random selection. So it will never happen. I understand.

[Duncan Disorderly]

If the shooter can make a mistake so can the spotters.
Last match it appeared a shooter had a squib - MANY voices shouted 'squib' and since there wasn't one, he got a reshoot of course.

I also hear other 'safety' things shouted, but rarely, even from spotters, 'directions' to keep a P from happening, that's the TO's area to deal with.

I think the last thing any shooter needs, wants or should have is 'random' advice from anyone.

 

I agree but think that's a sad testimony of the way things are going. People are becoming so afraid of giving incorrect information that they don't bother giving correct information. They seem to forget one of the foremost duties of the TO is to safety guide the shooter through the stage. As Hoss pointed out, some shooters don't want help and indicate that before the stage begins. Most other shooters welcome some friendly guidance to help get the train back on its tracks when things go south.

[Lost Trail]

I'm relatively new to CAS and SASS, but will give my thoughts anyway with the idea that we can all express our points of view respectfully and learn from each other.

 

When I'm shooting, I can cue in on the TO pretty well. Spotters, not so well unless there is a cacophony of "STOP", "Cease Fire", etc. Each person handles the stress of shooting differently and I know that I have a bit more stress just from not having shot with one club more than once yet. Once I get to shooting regularly with a group of folks, learn their voices, then that will go away.

 

I was helping spot, collect cases, check firearms at the unloading table, setup & tear down before taking the RO1 class. But IMHO, knowing how I feel up there, I keep my mouth shut as a spotter unless there is need for a stopage, cease fire, I figure the TO is the closest to the shooter, generally has more experience and better view.

 

A chorus of voices can get confusing.

[Hoss]

I'm with Lost Trail, Unless I hear a bunch of "STOP" or "CEASE FIRE" I don't even hear the spotters. Just the TO

[Rye Miles #13621]

I remember at GOA one year I shot 9 rounds with my rifle and put it down. I then drew my first pistol and as I was drawing it a whole bunch of folks were yelling " One more in the rifle". I holstered my pistol and went back to the rifle. The problem is I cocked the pistol and then decocked it before holstering!……………..SDQ!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

My fault, I know, but all those people got me all riled up like a cuban cigar! I should have proceeded with the pistol and then went back to the rifle and I would have only had a procedural. Yep, the shooter owns it but all that yelling from the peanut gallery can sure get ya going!!

[Hoss]

I remember at GOA one year I shot 9 rounds with my rifle and put it down. I then drew my first pistol and as I was drawing it a whole bunch of folks were yelling " One more in the rifle". I holstered my pistol and went back to the rifle. The problem is I cocked the pistol and then decocked it before holstering!……………..SDQ!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

My fault, I know, but all those people got me all riled up like a cuban cigar! I should have proceeded with the pistol and then went back to the rifle and I would have only had a procedural. Yep, the shooter owns it but all that yelling from the peanut gallery can sure get ya going!!

Rye it would have been a MSV and a miss. I think if you went back to the gun and shot the round it would have been a MSV and a P. You would have been better off with just the MSV I think.

 

Here is a funny option. Assuming this is a stabd and deliver stage, so you don't have to take a step back to the rifle. Pistol is cocked, you can't do anything but hold it or shoot it. Could you with your other hand pick up rifle and shoot it one handed, while holding pistol; with other hand? Rules say can only have 1 loaded REVOLVER in hand at one time. I doubt as TO I would allow you to attempt this as I think it would constitute unsafe gun handling, but I suppose it could be done.

[Blastmaster]

If the shooter can make a mistake so can the spotters.

Last match it appeared a shooter had a squib - MANY voices shouted 'squib' and since there wasn't one, he got a reshoot of course.

 

I am more accustom to the TO & posse not saying a word after a potential squib, midway through the gun string.. Shooter has to decide if they should/want to ground the gun or keep shooting. If shooter grounds gun, he/she is awarded whatever cartridges are left in the gun + one in the barrel. No interference by posse, so no reshoot. Next shooter! OR, they will tell you after the stage is complete, that you had one more round in the pistol(s) or rifle.

 

I think the last thing any shooter needs, wants or should have is 'random' advice from anyone.

 

[Cheyenne Culpepper 32827]

Rye it would have been a MSV and a miss. I think if you went back to the gun and shot the round it would have been a MSV and a P. You would have been better off with just the MSV I think.

 

Here is a funny option. Assuming this is a stabd and deliver stage, so you don't have to take a step back to the rifle. Pistol is cocked, you can't do anything but hold it or shoot it. Could you with your other hand pick up rifle and shoot it one handed, while holding pistol; with other hand? Rules say can only have 1 loaded REVOLVER in hand at one time. I doubt as TO I would allow you to attempt this as I think it would constitute unsafe gun handling, but I suppose it could be done.

if you could do it safely, why not?

[Boggus Deal #64218]

Rye it would have been a MSV and a miss. I think if you went back to the gun and shot the round it would have been a MSV and a P. You would have been better off with just the MSV I think.

 

Here is a funny option. Assuming this is a stabd and deliver stage, so you don't have to take a step back to the rifle. Pistol is cocked, you can't do anything but hold it or shoot it. Could you with your other hand pick up rifle and shoot it one handed, while holding pistol; with other hand? Rules say can only have 1 loaded REVOLVER in hand at one time. I doubt as TO I would allow you to attempt this as I think it would constitute unsafe gun handling, but I suppose it could be done.

Did that cocked, loaded revolver leave your hand? As in switched hands? I believe that would earn you a SDQ, as well. ROI page 26

[Hoss]

Did that cocked, loaded revolver leave your hand? As in switched hands? I believe that would earn you a SDQ, as well. ROI page 26

Nope, you held it in right hand, picked up rifle with left, closed lever (somehow, without breaking 170) and shot rifle lefty, opened lever, ground rifle, shoot pistol.

[Rye Miles #13621]

Rye it would have been a MSV and a miss. I think if you went back to the gun and shot the round it would have been a MSV and a P. You would have been better off with just the MSV I think.

 

Here is a funny option. Assuming this is a stabd and deliver stage, so you don't have to take a step back to the rifle. Pistol is cocked, you can't do anything but hold it or shoot it. Could you with your other hand pick up rifle and shoot it one handed, while holding pistol; with other hand? Rules say can only have 1 loaded REVOLVER in hand at one time. I doubt as TO I would allow you to attempt this as I think it would constitute unsafe gun handling, but I suppose it could be done.

It was not a stand and deliver, I moved a few steps over to shoot the pistols, I decocked it and moved back a few steps to the rifle.