Rule Clarifications from EOT TG Meeting

[Griff]

Griff, you sure are a cutie pie! , you nailed it!

I refuse to fall in the fallicy of "PC"ness (public cowardice)! And "cutie"? ...even my mama don't use that on me!

 

 

But fergawdsake, it's gonna cost me .10 SECONDS!!!!!

Fixed that fer ya! Missed ya Sunday. Here's hopin' you're doin' alright.

[Don Coyote, SASS #63736]

Strange I would have thought standing upright would have been the page turner.lol

 

 

EMN

I can think of several CHAMPIONSHIP level shooters in our neck of the woods who will probably have some problem starting "standing upright" (with hands on hat, etc) unless the stage description clearly calls for it. We'll see on 7/23.

[Ramblin Gambler]

Standing upright was an easy fix though. Stage writers are just going to add a line that says the rest of you can be in any position you want as long as ...

 

 

[El Muerto Negro]

I can think of several CHAMPIONSHIP level shooters in our neck of the woods who will probably have some problem starting "standing upright" (with hands on hat, etc) unless the stage description clearly calls for it. We'll see on 7/23.

Exactly what I was thinking. With hands on hat looking at a long gun. At what point are you not standing upright? Do you need to bury your chin into chest to be legal? This will not be called the same for all I'm afraid to say.

 

EMN

[Creeker, SASS #43022]

The TG's and rules committee might be well served to consider the possibility that NOT issuing rulings may be just as productive as issuing clarifications and adding rules.

 

The more regulation and attempted regimentation you place upon a group of folks that generally consider themselves individualists

The more push back you are going to receive.

 

And the now FORCED inability for a shooter to correct an issue on the clock (especially a non safety related) without penalty (beyond time required to do so) is ridiculous.

The onus (and penalty) is on the shooter. Once THEY say the start line or "Shooters Ready" - the stage is theirs.

If the shooters pistols are supposed to be staged and they begin holstered AND If they fail to fix it ON THE CLOCK - assess the penalty.

 

But if they fulfill the requirements of the stage - they have performed ALL the same actions as every other shooter.

Call the time - count the misses and ready the stage for the next shooter.

[Blackey Cole]

I can understand the need for the clarification but I see spotters seeing an shooter in a faulted position and saying anything before the beep to correct it to get an advantage over their compitition. Not the cowboy wat I know but I've seen some heated compitition between shooters on the same posse. At championships I try to refrain from spotting not because I can't but because others can just as good and I'm not in the hunt.

[Keystone, SASS # 47578]

Well,

 

I say change the SASS Default Position to hands not touching guns or ammo. Let competitors start in a position that's best for them. Same with starting at port arms, hands touching hat, hands flat on table, low surrender and so on. What's the big deal anyway. We're all different height, weight and shape so why be so restrictive on the starting position???

 

Hasta Luego, Keystone

[CodyMaverick]

The clarification is. Deal with it. I will, We're all human and subject to human mistakes. Absolutely! Sure, as TOs, spotters, time keepers ULT/LT officers, and shooters I believe we all try our best... even strive for better than that..Me too. but that doesn't preclude mistakes. No it doesn't. Same as when we're shooting. Regardless of stray sentences, from LT to firing line to ULT, the shooter is responsible. I agree. What... you want to abdicated that, and make someone else responsible so you don't have to worry about making a mistake. No, just the opposite. I believe the TO shares the responsibility of what position the shooter is in at the beginning of the stage. When you are the TO what are you looking at? Their hands, their guns, their overall body position? If something is not where it should be, do you not feel obligated to correct them? I'm not looking to relieve myself of my responsibilities, just not looking to relieve others of theirs either.

 

Let me know how that works out for you... Not to politicize this, but just what is wrong with our country? Far too many folks want some one else to be responsible for them! Suck it up buttercup! I don't mean to be offensive, now I'll proceed to offend. What you describe is a human condition and knows no borders.

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

 

What's the big deal anyway.

 

 

Perhaps the big deal is that, if you hovered right over your revolvers or shotgun in the real West, some pard would have just back shot you for being "itching for a fight" and not willing to give a man a fair start.

 

It's got a long-standing taint of not being of good character associated with it. Something only an outlaw would do. So, my guess only, the rules committee sides with the guys in White Hats.

 

Good luck, GJ

[CodyMaverick]

There was a recent event in mind when I voiced my opinion concerning automatically penalizing a shooter that is started in an incorrect position.

 

I was second to shoot a stage at a local match recently and when ready I tucked my thumbs in my pistol belt and the TO told me to start with hands on pistols. I said ok and just mentioned I thought it was in pistol belt and I guess that sounded familiar, likely because he had just read the instructions to us a few minutes before. He went and checked and found I was right. The problem arose of what to do about the first shooter that started with hands on pistols and both the shooter and TO thought this was correct at the time. Do we give him the penalty? Make him re-shoot the stage?, or just let it go?

 

Since pistols were first, he did get a head start with hands on pistols but no one complained and we just let it go and moved on.

 

I guess out in the tall grass where the big dogs play, the competition is a bit more intense and these kinds of things matter a great deal. Up here on the porch, eh, not so much.

[Keystone, SASS # 47578]

So, you really believe that people stood like manikins waiting to be killed. I believe that's more Hollywood reel west than the real west. There were more back shootings and knifings in the real west than stand upright gunfights. Lawmen & Outlaws were always looking for a competitive edge in order to survive.

 

Hasta Luego, Keystone

 

PS New scenario abbreviation, NSD (No SASS Default)

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

So, if we take that line of thought a little farther, and assume most fellers who had to respond to a gun fight were caught unawares, they sure weren't "spring loaded" with hands a couple of inches from their iron. Only the ambusher is going to "have the drop" in the fight to know when it starts. If they knew a fight was coming, they probably had filled their hands before lighting the fuse. And sometimes we start stages that way. Variety.

 

To be in an upright stance, you don't have to be (and you don't WANT to be) stiff as a manikin. Normal stance works just fine. I've seen very few manikins at EOT or WR. But lots of good shooters. And a few deep crouchers and hover boarders.

 

Good luck, GJ

[StirrupTrouble]

There was a recent event in mind when I voiced my opinion concerning automatically penalizing a shooter that is started in an incorrect position.

 

I was second to shoot a stage at a local match recently and when ready I tucked my thumbs in my pistol belt and the TO told me to start with hands on pistols. I said ok and just mentioned I thought it was in pistol belt and I guess that sounded familiar, likely because he had just read the instructions to us a few minutes before. He went and checked and found I was right. The problem arose of what to do about the first shooter that started with hands on pistols and both the shooter and TO thought this was correct at the time. Do we give him the penalty? Make him re-shoot the stage?, or just let it go?

 

Since pistols were first, he did get a head start with hands on pistols but no one complained and we just let it go and moved on.

 

I guess out in the tall grass where the big dogs play, the competition is a bit more intense and these kinds of things matter a great deal. Up here on the porch, eh, not so much.

Now this is just my opinion, but if I was TO and told the shooter the wrong starting position, I consider the fault with me, and I would give him a reshoot. If they do not start correctly, that is on them. That being said, as a TO, I consider it my responsibility to remind them when they are preparing if they look like they are not starting correctly, but if they choose not to accept my advice, that is on them

[Lone Dog, SASS #20401]

Default position should be Texas Surrender, crouch as you may or will...

 

In all me borned put togethers I never heerd of nor even seen a pic of shogun loops on a pistola holster??? This is actually a thing? Ha ha cannot believe it. If so, seems like it would be not only silly lookin' but super slow...

[Ace_of_Hearts]

http://s1303.photobucket.com/user/rmetz2010/media/Shotgun%20Holster_zpseygxht5b.jpg.html?sort=3&o=0

 

The concept is that if the shotgun is shot right after the pistols, the shells would be quicker access upon holstering.

[CodyMaverick]

Strange I would have thought standing upright would have been the page turner.lol

 

 

EMN

 

I wonder if the two items aren't interrelated, Now someone is going to have to make the judgement call as to how upright is 'standing upright' and factor in how upright a given shooter is capable of standing. Now I guess there will be a need for a future clarification to let us know if tilting the head downward is or is not a violation of standing upright.

[C0ckr0ach, SASS #26100]

To me - it is the responsibility of the TO to start the Shooter correctly. So - however, the Shooter is started - it is either correct or Shooter receives a reshoot.

[Possum Skinner, SASS#60697]

Shooter's responsibility. If shooter started in wrong position and it wasn't realized until later, he should have done the honorable thing and told score keeper to add a P to his score for that stage.

 

TO's responsibility to try to help shooter, but ultimately shooters fault. Take the penalty YOU earned like a big boy and move on.

 

And if you as TO don't make the right call after this occurs, you are penalizing everyone who did listen, read and start the stage correctly.

[Keystone, SASS # 47578]

To me - it is the responsibility of the TO to start the Shooter correctly. So - however, the Shooter is started - it is either correct or Shooter receives a reshoot.

 

Not anymore, it's a procedural as per the new clarification.

[Boggus Deal #64218]

Shooter's responsibility. If shooter started in wrong position and it wasn't realized until later, he should have done the honorable thing and told score keeper to add a P to his score for that stage.

 

TO's responsibility to try to help shooter, but ultimately shooters fault. Take the penalty YOU earned like a big boy and move on.

 

And if you as TO don't make the right call after this occurs, you are penalizing everyone who did listen, read and start the stage correctly.

+1000

[Shooting Bull]

Well,

 

I say change the SASS Default Position to hands not touching guns or ammo. Let competitors start in a position that's best for them. Same with starting at port arms, hands touching hat, hands flat on table, low surrender and so on. What's the big deal anyway. We're all different height, weight and shape so why be so restrictive on the starting position???

 

Hasta Luego, Keystone

 

I would fully support this. In my ever so humble opinion, less restriction is almost always better than more restriction.

[El Muerto Negro]

 

I would fully support this. In my ever so humble opinion, less restriction is almost always better than more restriction.

Yes this less definitely is easier to follow. Shooter starts hands on pistols easy.

 

EMN

[Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933]

The last thing we need to be doing is redefining the default postion, port arms, etc. These were developed over years of discussion and drafting efforts by the ROC and in almost all cases were the results of one or two people doing unusal things at matches and coming up with the standard excuse of "well, if it's not expressly written in rules I don't have to do it." Everytime there is a new rule or a rule clarification there seems to be a period of weeping, wailing and the gnashing of teeth. Then life goes on. The ROC does a darn good job trying to balance the various discussions and keep the game on an even keel.

[Boggus Deal #64218]

The last thing we need to be doing is redefining the default postion, port arms, etc. These were developed over years of discussion and drafting efforts by the ROC and in almost all cases were the results of one or two people doing unusal things at matches and coming up with the standard excuse of "well, if it's not expressly written in rules I don't have to do it." Everytime there is a new rule or a rule clarification there seems to be a period of weeping, wailing and the gnashing of teeth. Then life goes on. The ROC does a darn good job trying to balance the various discussions and keep the game on an even keel.

+1

[Mumbles]

I am fairly new to this game. It seems to me clarifications on rules don't really effect the vast majority of the shooters. They are forced to be made because someone tries to bend or cheat the rules in their favor. There will always be those who will do this when there is competition involved. Thus there will be a need for clarification of rules or the addition of rules to address situations in an attempt to keep the competition fair.

 

If the shooter is unsure of the starting position or course of fire they need to ask.

 

Gamers will game, rule followers will call em on it, powers that be will clarify. Whether we like it or not, it will continue.

 

Myself, I am not a competitor but a participant. I'm just glad you can only get one P per stage😃

 

I love this game

[Boggus Deal #64218]

I am fairly new to this game. It seems to me clarifications on rules don't really effect the vast majority of the shooters. They are forced to be made because someone tries to bend or cheat the rules in their favor. There will always be those who will do this when there is competition involved. Thus there will be a need for clarification of rules or the addition of rules to address situations in an attempt to keep the competition fair.

 

If the shooter is unsure of the starting position or course of fire they need to ask.

 

Gamers will game, rule followers will call em on it, powers that be will clarify. Whether we like it or not, it will continue.

 

Myself, I am not a competitor but a participant. I'm just glad you can only get one P per stage

 

I love this game

Mumbles, I believe you mistake cheaters for gamers. Two totally seperate classes of people. A gamer looks at a stage and says how can I shoot this to the best of my abilities? A cheater says what can I get away with? There is a difference.

[Shooting Bull]

The last thing we need to be doing is redefining the default postion, port arms, etc....................

 

Just to be clear, I'm not suggesting redefining it. I'm suggesting we do away with it. One person likes to start standing ram rod straight another person likes to take a more athletic stance, let 'em each do what they want.

 

That being said, I totally agree the Rules Committee does a fantastic job and I'll fully abide by whatever decisions they make.

[Blastmaster]

Stage writers could be pro active & inventive and state a starting position/hands location/whatever position.

 

'Hovering over firearms' would be good.

 

'spider fingers' on table is another.

 

'Anything but touching firearms' is still another.

 

'Stand on one foot, balance with hands' and wait for beep.

[Mumbles]

Bogus deal, my bad. I should have stated cheaters will cheat.

[Gawd Awful]

To me - it is the responsibility of the TO to start the Shooter correctly. So - however, the Shooter is started - it is either correct or Shooter receives a reshoot.

The clarification from the R.O.C. Directly contradicts this, so are you saying you are planning on changing your opinion so that we are all playing by the clarified rules of the game, or are you stating that you belive you won't follow the rules as clarified?

 

Not being sarcastic, just trying to understand what your saying

[Gawd Awful]

 

Just to be clear, I'm not suggesting redefining it. I'm suggesting we do away with it. One person likes to start standing ram rod straight another person likes to take a more athletic stance, let 'em each do what they want.

 

That being said, I totally agree the Rules Committee does a fantastic job and I'll fully abide by whatever decisions they make.

I like to start with cocked pistols in hand, aimed at target, how far do we "allow" people to deviate from a "default" position? At some point there becomes enough of a difference between starting positions, that we aren't shooting the same match any more.

[Gawd Awful]

The last thing we need to be doing is redefining the default postion, port arms, etc. These were developed over years of discussion and drafting efforts by the ROC and in almost all cases were the results of one or two people doing unusal things at matches and coming up with the standard excuse of "well, if it's not expressly written in rules I don't have to do it." Everytime there is a new rule or a rule clarification there seems to be a period of weeping, wailing and the gnashing of teeth. Then life goes on. The ROC does a darn good job trying to balance the various discussions and keep the game on an even keel.

Well said

[Hoss]

The clarification from the R.O.C. Directly contradicts this, so are you saying you are planning on changing your opinion so that we are all playing by the clarified rules of the game, or are you stating that you belive you won't follow the rules as clarified?

 

Not being sarcastic, just trying to understand what your saying

My take would be that TO would tell shooter he is not in correct position. If shooter elects to not fix the position, start them, and award the earned P.

[Shooting Bull]

I like to start with cocked pistols in hand, aimed at target, how far do we "allow" people to deviate from a "default" position? At some point there becomes enough of a difference between starting positions, that we aren't shooting the same match any more.

 

How far is too far? Don't know, that's something for the RoC to decide.

 

As to not shooting the same match, I disagree. You actually do have a point where you can't go any further and you mentioned it in your post; start with cocked pistols in hand, aimed at target. That's as far as you can possibly go without actually starting the stage. If everybody does that, they're all shooting the same match. Now, am I advocating that? No, of course not. I'm simply saying I firmly believe less is more when it comes to rules. Used to be the SASS default was standing with hands at sides. We've now had to define what standing is. Seems rather absurd to me and if history is any indication it won't be long before we have to define what "at your sides" means. If I were king for a day I'd make the default "Not touching guns or ammo". Using that description I really can't think of how shooters could come up with enough variation to be seen as shooting a different match. Nobody gains a competitive advantage because everybody is allowed to do the same thing(s).

[Blackey Cole]

I guess I like living more than the rest. If I was a sherrif going to subdue a individual I would be carrying a loaded and cocked 12 guage to keep him from pulling on me if he was of a clear mind. No need to play fair when your doing your job.