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Rule Clarifications from EOT TG Meeting


Keystone, SASS # 47578

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I have a curved spine and cannot stand up straight. Do I get a P on every stage?

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I am still a little unsure about the "Gun in hand" not being able to be corrected on the clock.

and

Is this also going to apply if the gun is staged in the wrong position? IE: Wrong window

How about ammo that was suppose to staged in a box on the table?

Are these no longer correctable on the clock?

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Quite a bit of discussion at the monthly match yesterday, much in jest. But the questions were serious. What does standing up straight really mean. Can you have your hands on your hat and have head tilted looking at your guns for example? Can your knees be bent ever so slightly if that is how you usually stand? Can you have one foot in front of another? If you normally walk bent over due to old age, do you have to stand straighter to start? New direction sure opens up a can of worms.

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Okay, I know this is nit picking but I've been curious for a year and a half now. This seems like the opportune time to ask my question. Winter Range 2015 the stage instructions said, "Shooter begins with rifle in hand..........." Nothing was mentioned about standing. I took my position and as always crouched down a bit. An "athletic stance" for lack of a better description. TO made me stand up straight before he'd start the timer. So, just to be clear, unless specifically stated in the stage description, the shooter ALWAYS starts standing straight up, is that right?

 

Here's the video from Grizzly Dave showing my stance:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ALRJqbGOKQ&list=PL5vdCU9fJVcWxF8J11WArswFWZyKT2eiM

 

 

Watched you video and I have seen lots of shooter's in a more aggressive stance then you were in and were fine.

 

EMN

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Quite a bit of discussion at the monthly match yesterday, much in jest. But the questions were serious. What does standing up straight really mean. Can you have your hands on your hat and have head tilted looking at your guns for example? Can your knees be bent ever so slightly if that is how you usually stand? Can you have one foot in front of another? If you normally walk bent over due to old age, do you have to stand straighter to start? New direction sure opens up a can of worms.

How do you stand when you are facing the Flag and singing your countries 'National Anthem' or 'Say the Pledge of Allegiance to the Flag'? Yes, right hand over heart, but the rest of you is standing straight as you can and other hand/arm is straight down beside your body.

 

Just a visual image

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How do you stand when you are facing the Flag and singing your countries 'National Anthem' or 'Say the Pledge of Allegiance to the Flag'? Yes, right hand over heart, but the rest of you is standing straight as you can and other hand/arm is straight down beside your body.

 

Just a visual image

Generally my eyes and face is skyward looking at a flag on a pole. So with that in mind under the new interpretation of rules, can one look down at their guns to be shot and still be standing erect?

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Generally my eyes and face is skyward looking at a flag on a pole. So with that in mind under the new interpretation of rules, can one look down at their guns to be shot and still be standing erect?

Let us say a person was in the 98th row (nose bleed balcony section) of a professional basketball arena and it was time to Say the Pledge and the flag was at court level. The person would stand straight, shoulders as square as always, one hand over heart, other beside him and he would tilt his head downward, rather than upward, until he could see the flag. In your case, looking downwards toward flag or gun would suffice (IMHO).

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SASS is very close to losing control of the rules of the game we play. I see more TOs just ignoring a SASS rule and doing what he feels is right. Almost always in favor of the shooter. These are not inexperienced TOs but just trying to make it more fun for everyone. Once that is done it is very difficult for anyone on the posse to change it later. This is being done at monthly shoots more and more. I have not seen this done at major shoots. I am not talking about hits and misses, but areas that are grey areas, ie did the shooter really have all his foot behind a table leg, did the shooter have the proper port of arms rifle position, how many restarts does shooter get for fumbling his first gun shotgun loads, match directors announcing cowboy attire is optional due to the adverse weather, etc.

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We use to NOT have a default position. I examined some real old local stages. Example "Start at Table". At beep shoot .......

 

It seems it was understood that hands were not on guns or ammo.

 

Could it be we are over engineering the game ? Does everyone have to make a Taco the exact same way ? Does it matter, as long as it relieves the hunger and tastes good ?

 

But the Rules are the Rules until they are changed !

 

By the way I tried crouching. It hurt by back. A competitive disadvantage.

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Hi Folks,

 

Maybe it is that we did NOT need a default position. Maybe, people are going to extremes now to gain fractions of seconds.

 

I know that when Hubby was a MD, he got so tired of seeing a "Port Arms Crouch" that he quit using it. I think it is better defined now. However, I'm not too sure about the execution.

 

In a discussion, comparing a sport and making tacos is a logical fallacy. (Still :wub: you pard!)

 

I sympathize with the ROC, they get so much grief for trying to make things fair for all. By that, I mean uniform and consistent around the World. Notice I didn't say "even the playing field" as I try not to use oxymorons. (Even and Playing Field being the Oxy.) :o;)

 

The point is that sometimes things get defined in the simplest language possible to prevent having to spell every little thing out (about every possible position) to gain some consistency in the competition. I see this as an addendum to the default position. Those who want to be more specific (or is it less specific) in describing a starting position are free to do so.

 

Calling this esteemed group's decision Standing Upright Like an Idiot, is an ineffective argument and IMO will not sway anyone's opinion. I know the person who wrote that can do better and use logic without the name calling.

 

Please be polite in your debate of any topic on this forum!

 

Regards,

 

Allie

 

 

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Posted by PWB

Courtesy of Shamrock Sadie:

 

· Hats: Classic Cowboy/Cowgirl and B-Western (ladies and men) are required to wear hats on their heads, not hanging by a stampede from your string or anywhere else. This is already a rule; just a clarification.

 

· Carrying of shot shell ammo: Cannot carry ammo on holsters for later use. It is considered illegally acquired ammo.

o SHB, p. 22, (Range Operations): “The penalty for using "illegally acquired" ammunition (i.e., NOT carried to the line/staged by the shooter in an approved manner) is a PROCEDURAL. Any targets hit using that ammo are scored as MISSES.”

 

· Starting in a faulted position: ROI, p. 6, 5.f. (Timer Operator): “The Timer Operator never starts a competitor in a faulted position or location. It is not considered a faulted position or location for allowing a shooter to start without appropriately loaded guns or available ammunition on their person.” The decision has been made and a clarification will be addressed in the ROI handbook that failure on the shooter to start in the correct starting position or location will be scored a Procedural, not a reshoot.

o Example of firearm in hands: If the starting position is with a firearm in hands and the shooter starts with the firearm on the table, then it is scored as a Procedural, not a reshoot. Just because the shooter picks up the firearm after the beep, it is not considered corrected.

 

· Safety checks: Unloading table officers should check that they can see the follower to ensure there is no ammo in the magazine (rifle and shotguns). Look for rounds in the magazine and have shooter work the action of a ’97.

 

· Standing upright: If shooter is to start with hands on hat or other stance, they must remain standing upright until after the beep, unless stage instructions indicate otherwise.

 

o Example: Just because the scenario states to point 1 hand downrange does not mean the shooter can have the other hand on the gun or bend down over the gun, unless stage instructions state otherwise. The other hand must be at SASS default, at side not touching guns and shooter must be standing upright.

 

· B-Western pistol style: B-Western shooters can change their pistol shooting style in the middle of the pistol string. This is already a rule; just a clarification.

o Example: Shooter can start shooting gunfighter for 5 rounds, place pistols on table to shoot a long gun and then shoot each gun in a traditional style.

 

· Wild Bunch: Shooters can shoot Henry Big Boy rifles now.

 

The proposed parameters and regulations for the "What's the Call" forum were also read for consideration.

That is a "working document" that will be finalized by the WB & ROC.

 

If these are not in the handbooks they do not exist yet IMHO. In the RO I and II classes we use the handbooks not year after year of RO committee and WB interpretations sometimes stored on a web site somewhere. I am likely wrong but how in hell is an RO that does not frequent the wire or even use the internet know about these changes that just keep coming at us. If you want these changes to really be implemented, change the rules in the handbooks. Think about the hundreds of cowboys that do not even know who their TG is much less getting a briefing from him on changes like this.

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Watched you video and I have seen lots of shooter's in a more aggressive stance then you were in and were fine.

 

EMN

 

 

It's kind of interesting to me that by trying to standardize the default position and eliminate subjectivity, it seems that even more subjectivity has been introduced. Because of your post I watched the video of myself again and realize that if the posse were being a bunch of hard asses I could have been penalized for not standing upright. I say that because I straightened my legs but was still leaning forward a bit. Makes me wonder just how fine we're going to try to split this hair. Also makes me believe even more that less is more in this particular case. Let the shooters stand however they want. Absolutely no competitive advantage to anyone since everyone is allowed to do the same thing.

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If these are not in the handbooks they do not exist yet IMHO. In the RO I and II classes we use the handbooks not year after year of RO committee and WB interpretations sometimes stored on a web site somewhere. I am likely wrong but how in hell is an RO that does not frequent the wire or even use the internet know about these changes that just keep coming at us. If you want these changes to really be implemented, change the rules in the handbooks. Think about the hundreds of cowboys that do not even know who their TG is much less getting a briefing from him on changes like this.

 

Those clarifications were announced at the EoT 2016 Territorial Governor's meeting as being "in effect" immediately...regardless of what you may think.

 

The rulebooks are NOT rewritten/edited immediately every time the ROC clarifies or answers a rule question.

 

The minutes of that meeting (as posted above) were also posted on the TG and RO Instructor Wires.

One of the duties and responsibilities of a Territorial Governor is to disseminate such information to their club members (ROs or not).

 

Updates will be made to the handbooks as needed...and that doesn't happen overnight.

Access to the clarifications archive website is also available via numerous links on the Wires and SASS homepage.

 

If you have an issue with the process, let your representative(s) know (TGs for the clubs to which you might belong).

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It's kind of interesting to me that by trying to standardize the default position and eliminate subjectivity, it seems that even more subjectivity has been introduced. Because of your post I watched the video of myself again and realize that if the posse were being a bunch of hard asses I could have been penalized for not standing upright. I say that because I straightened my legs but was still leaning forward a bit. Makes me wonder just how fine we're going to try to split this hair. Also makes me believe even more that less is more in this particular case.

 

Let the shooters stand however they want.

STAGE INSTRUCTIONS can always be written to do exactly that.

 

Absolutely no competitive advantage to anyone since everyone is allowed to do the same thing.

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Most all of this controversy can be eliminated 'IF" the stage writer would state whatever starting position they wish,,, other than the default that some so dread. For the folks that have the most heart burn;,,,, step up and write stages for your monthly club shoots. If you are not willing to do that, then you are part of the problem rather than part of the solution.

 

As Cockroach said, rules are rules and live with them until they change.

 

BTW, I understand that this clarification came from the WB and not the ROC. Most are barking up the wrong tree. I also understand that the WB word is final, unless 'they' change their minds.

 

Finally, we had a 4-H Buckaroo shooter on our posse this past weekend,,, We read the stage, educated him on the rules, described the starting position, and guess what? He did it without question (as well as the rest of the posse) . A good example for us all. He shot very well and we hooted and hollered on his successes.

 

Perhaps starting with rifle/SG on shoulder is an out dated starting position, about like Port Arms.. For another topic.

 

 

 

Carry on,

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Most all of this controversy can be eliminated 'IF" the stage writer would state whatever starting position they wish,,, other than the default that some so dread. For the folks that have the most heart burn;,,,, step up and write stages for your monthly club shoots. If you are not willing to do that, then you are part of the problem rather than part of the solution.

 

As Cockroach said, rules are rules and live with them until they change.

 

BTW, I understand that this clarification came from the WB and not the ROC. Most are barking up the wrong tree. I also understand that the WB word is final, unless 'they' change their minds.

I don't know where you might have heard that, but these clarifications came directly from the ROC.

Two of the ROC members (Hipshot & Tex) are also members of the WB.

 

Finally, we had a 4-H Buckaroo shooter on our posse this past weekend,,, We read the stage, educated him on the rules, described the starting position, and guess what? He did it without question (as well as the rest of the posse) . A good example for us all. He shot very well and we hooted and hollered on his successes.

 

Perhaps starting with rifle/SG on shoulder is an out dated starting position, about like Port Arms.. For another topic.

 

 

 

Carry on,

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Think about the hundreds of cowboys that do not even know who their TG is much less getting a briefing from him on changes like this.

Those shooters need to start asking questions like "who's my TG, why doesn't he ever say anything to us, and if he's really not doing his job, why isn't he being replaced". Now that sass has done away with the "life member" requirement, there are many more qualified people who are willing to take over for an ineffective representative for clubs

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Most all of this controversy can be eliminated 'IF" the stage writer would state whatever starting position they wish,,, other than the default that some so dread. For the folks that have the most heart burn;,,,, step up and write stages for your monthly club shoots. If you are not willing to do that, then you are part of the problem rather than part of the solution.

 

As Cockroach said, rules are rules and live with them until they change.

 

BTW, I understand that this clarification came from the WB and not the ROC. Most are barking up the wrong tree. I also understand that the WB word is final, unless 'they' change their minds.

I don't know where you might have heard that, but these clarifications came directly from the ROC.

Two of the ROC members (Hipshot & Tex) are also members of the WB.

 

Finally, we had a 4-H Buckaroo shooter on our posse this past weekend,,, We read the stage, educated him on the rules, described the starting position, and guess what? He did it without question (as well as the rest of the posse) . A good example for us all. He shot very well and we hooted and hollered on his successes.

 

Perhaps starting with rifle/SG on shoulder is an out dated starting position, about like Port Arms.. For another topic.

 

 

 

Carry on,

 

thanks for the clarification.

 

BTW, perhaps I misunderstood my TG explanation on the whole issue on Saturday

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It's kind of interesting to me that by trying to standardize the default position and eliminate subjectivity, it seems that even more subjectivity has been introduced. Because of your post I watched the video of myself again and realize that if the posse were being a bunch of hard asses I could have been penalized for not standing upright. I say that because I straightened my legs but was still leaning forward a bit. Makes me wonder just how fine we're going to try to split this hair. Also makes me believe even more that less is more in this particular case.

 

Let the shooters stand however they want.

STAGE INSTRUCTIONS can always be written to do exactly that.

 

Absolutely no competitive advantage to anyone since everyone is allowed to do the same thing.

 

around here that is called SAGAP!!! Stand as gamey as possible!!!

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It's kind of interesting to me that by trying to standardize the default position and eliminate subjectivity, it seems that even more subjectivity has been introduced. Because of your post I watched the video of myself again and realize that if the posse were being a bunch of hard asses I could have been penalized for not standing upright. I say that because I straightened my legs but was still leaning forward a bit. Makes me wonder just how fine we're going to try to split this hair. Also makes me believe even more that less is more in this particular case. Let the shooters stand however they want. Absolutely no competitive advantage to anyone since everyone is allowed to do the same thing.

SB,

This is exactly what I was saying in my TSquare joke post!! Most of us know what this will bring to the matches, and most of us probably know who we shoot with on regular basis are going to be frothing at the mouth waiting to badger the point of correct stance the first chance they get!!!!

 

Now Griff and several others have made the correct, and most would feel, painfully obvious comments of how this should be viewed by the SASS community, but I truly believe the best way of depriving the T Square crowd their day in the sun, is as the GREAT and WISE. Creeker of OZ says, leave it to the match directors to make sure to write in the stance disclaimer as needed to reduce wasted time during a shoot as to proper stance!!!

 

Spades H. Yes this is what it's come to....🤕🤕🤕

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Given the wide variety of shooters physical conditions, wide choice of guns, wide choice of ammo, wide choice of leather, wide choice of gun smithing used, etc. does the fact that a shooter leans over in an athletc position versus standing completely erect really make that much difference in the standings for a category or a major match overall finish. Given no rule and no stage instructions, fastest shooters will do what they feel comfortable with, other that fastest shooters will do what they need to do to keep from tripping and falling over. This whole starting position thing has gotten totally out of control. Give the shooter a place to stand to start and when he is ready give him the beep. Does someone think cowboys were not smart enough in the 1880s to do things the quickest?

 

I can not wait to see a stage at a major match, say something like with shooter standing in his best athletic posture somewhere on the stage holding his shotgun with one or two hands, move to any table and shoot the 4 shotgun fallers. Shooter has to take at least a single step.

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