Marauder SASS #13056 Posted July 14, 2016 Share Posted July 14, 2016 Makes me thing of a new starting position for writing stages where you know you are getting into a fight. "Start at your fighting position, hands not touching guns." Or just ". . . Hands touching gun/s" And use the SASS default for those stages when your surprised or not prepared for the fight. In those cases I wouldn't want the "obviously ready stances." May add some more realism and fun to the stages. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smilinjeff Posted July 15, 2016 Share Posted July 15, 2016 Thanks TG,s for making the Big Boy legal for WB again Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Creeker, SASS #43022 Posted July 15, 2016 Share Posted July 15, 2016 I like to start with cocked pistols in hand, aimed at target, how far do we "allow" people to deviate from a "default" position? At some point there becomes enough of a difference between starting positions, that we aren't shooting the same match any more. Ahh, but grasshopper, we do not require everyone to shoot the same match. We allow shooters choices all the time regarding gun order, movement direction, sometimes even target orders. Everyone doesn't have to shoot the same match as everyone else; everyone must have the OPTION to shoot the same match as everyone else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ventura Slim, SASS #35690 Posted July 15, 2016 Share Posted July 15, 2016 long thread, so I have to post something...Standing up right in silver senior, elder statesman and cattle baron looks different than wrangler (can I get a witness) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smokestack SASS#87384 Posted July 15, 2016 Share Posted July 15, 2016 Ahh, but grasshopper, we do not require everyone to shoot the same match. We allow shooters choices all the time regarding gun order, movement direction, sometimes even target orders. Everyone doesn't have to shoot the same match as everyone else; everyone must have the OPTION to shoot the same match as everyone else. We all shoot ate same match. We are all read and held to the same instructions. We may approach each stage differently, but we all shoot the same match. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yul Lose Posted July 15, 2016 Share Posted July 15, 2016 Smokestack for a pard that shoots so fast you sure have a jammed up mail box, if you know what I mean? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arcadia Outlaw, SASS 71385 Posted July 17, 2016 Share Posted July 17, 2016 Makes me thing of a new starting position for writing stages where you know you are getting into a fight. "Start at your fighting position, hands not touching guns." Or just ". . . Hands touching gun/s" And use the SASS default for those stages when your surprised or not prepared for the fight. In those cases I wouldn't want the "obviously ready stances." May add some more realism and fun to the stages. +1, seems to me if you are starting with rifle in hand or shotgun port arms you should stand like you want, for instance a more athletic stance if you want ,but when starting with hands on hat or low surrender or something like that where you not starting with a gun in your hand or hands, I can see where standing upright looks better and a good default, I think as a stage writer I will add some wording like Sadie & Maurader mentioned, Personally I think stage writers should give a start position rather than letting go to stage convention anyway especially at a big match. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Creeker, SASS #43022 Posted July 17, 2016 Share Posted July 17, 2016 I just went thru the stages for Eldorado - the Nevada State Championships. My personal opinion is a starting position is defined when the shooter is told where to stand AND has been given a specific task. In the absence of a specific task; the stage convention is necessary. I find it difficult to accept the premise that in the absence of specifically addressing the curvature of their spine, I have failed to give a starting position. But I will abide by SASS rules. So to avoid requiring my shooters to adopt the SULAI (standing upright like an idiot) position every stage. I have been forced to add - shooters choice of body posture. Shooter begins at window - rifle in hands. Shooters choice of body posture. Shooter begins at mine shaft - dynamite held in both hands. Shooters choice of body posture. Shooters begins at hanging tree - both hands touching rope. Shooters choice of body posture. I write my matches. I will allow my shooters to decide how is best to position their bodies for their upcoming actions. I will not allow a misguided attempt at forced regimentation to require SULAI positioning at any shoot I am affiliated with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C0ckr0ach, SASS #26100 Posted July 17, 2016 Share Posted July 17, 2016 How about just: Shooter starts standing comfortably in the vicinity of Table. ?? I believe: Standing means "on feet" Comfortably means "determined by the Shooter" Vicinity means "near by" Let's not over engineer the starting position. Or any position !! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Muerto Negro Posted July 17, 2016 Share Posted July 17, 2016 I just went thru the stages for Eldorado - the Nevada State Championships. My personal opinion is a starting position is defined when the shooter is told where to stand AND has been given a specific task. In the absence of a specific task; the stage convention is necessary. I find it difficult to accept the premise that in the absence of specifically addressing the curvature of their spine, I have failed to give a starting position. But I will abide by SASS rules. So to avoid requiring my shooters to adopt the SULAI (standing upright like an idiot) position every stage. I have been forced to add - shooters choice of body posture. Shooter begins at window - rifle in hands. Shooters choice of body posture. Shooter begins at mine shaft - dynamite held in both hands. Shooters choice of body posture. Shooters begins at hanging tree - both hands touching rope. Shooters choice of body posture. I write my matches. I will allow my shooters to decide how is best to position their bodies for their upcoming actions. I will not allow a misguided attempt at forced regimentation to require SULAI positioning at any shoot I am affiliated with. I think the shooter's at your shoot will love it. I hope others take notice and add those words. EMN Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keystone, SASS # 47578 Posted July 17, 2016 Author Share Posted July 17, 2016 Well, Could you just declare the whole event a NSDPM (None SASS Default Position Match). Keystone Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marauder SASS #13056 Posted July 17, 2016 Share Posted July 17, 2016 And remember, as I often have to remind folks: "At no time may your hands leave the ends of your wrists!" :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blastmaster Posted July 18, 2016 Share Posted July 18, 2016 shot a monthly under the new rules. Everyone played nice and honored the new rules. No big deal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C0ckr0ach, SASS #26100 Posted July 18, 2016 Share Posted July 18, 2016 I suggest - the ROC revisit the issue, as it will be circumvented via human creativity. First Rule of Management: Do Not Establish a Rule or Policy you cannot enforce, as such reduces your Authority. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L Posted July 18, 2016 Share Posted July 18, 2016 I suggest - the ROC revisit the issue, as it will be circumvented via human creativity. First Rule of Management: Do Not Establish a Rule or Policy you cannot enforce, as such reduces your Authority. Suggest a reading of the "preamble" to the "Stage Conventions". SHB p.22 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smokestack SASS#87384 Posted July 18, 2016 Share Posted July 18, 2016 Suggest a reading of the "preamble" to the "Stage Conventions". SHB p.22 😆 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Montana, SASS #23907 Posted July 18, 2016 Share Posted July 18, 2016 I'm a firm believer in "shooter's responsibility". I'm a firm supporter of the ROC, Wild Bunch, & SASS rules. I've seen enough RO's, TO's, TG's, Posse Marshals, & BEOR's(Big egos on Range) to know that the interpretation of "Standing upright" will range from overly strict (excessive penalization) to loosely regarded. It's unfortunate that something to help standardize the game possibly adds a layer of interpretation that often appears to be at the expense of the new or unknown shooter versus the well known or experienced shooter. One thing leads to another. What is the acceptable head position while standing upright? What about feet placement, parallel or staggered? Palms in, out, or forward while hanging loosely at side? Yeah it sounds ridiculous. But in my opinion so does "upright" while aiming a rifle at a target which is contrary to a normal shooting position, as has been implied by the posts on this thread. Well said Creeker. Filling out my application for Eldorado tomorrow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shooting Bull Posted July 18, 2016 Share Posted July 18, 2016 . One thing leads to another. What is the acceptable head position while standing upright? What about feet placement, parallel or staggered? Palms in, out, or forward while hanging loosely at side? Yeah it sounds ridiculous. But in my opinion so does "upright" while aiming a rifle at a target which is contrary to a normal shooting position, as has been implied by the posts on this thread.. BINGO! Nail hit squarely on the head. Forced to adopt a non-shooting stance in a shooting sport. Makes no sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Griff Posted July 18, 2016 Share Posted July 18, 2016 BINGO! Nail hit squarely on the head. Forced to adopt a non-shooting stance in a shooting sport. Makes no sense. But... since when is bent over with your hat below your belt a shooting stance? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gawd Awful Posted July 18, 2016 Share Posted July 18, 2016 BINGO! Nail hit squarely on the head. Forced to adopt a non-shooting stance in a shooting sport. Makes no sense. Haven't you shot other "action shooting" games? Ever started with an empty gun? How about gun at table A, magazines at table B. Standing with toes touching the fault line at "X"s???? Carried an umbrella through a stage? Talk about unnatural acts. It's a game, the game has rules, the rules are defined to try to make everything the same for everyone. Some I agree with. some I don't agree with, but I understand. Some I think are insane. This is one of the cases where someone felt that the "grey area" was to different from region to region, club to club. I've seen this in clubs that are only 50 miles from each other. In order to eliminate the huge variations, they simply did away with the grey area. doing away with the grey areas makes the game more consistent from club to club, and region to region. The default SHOULD be the same in Seattle WA, as in Ft Lauderdale FL. That way when shooters from both clubs meet at a match in Oklahoma, they are still playing the same game. Just relax and enjoy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shooting Bull Posted July 18, 2016 Share Posted July 18, 2016 Thanks for the explanation but it's totally unnecessary, I understand the concept perfectly. I simply disagree with the execution. I contend we could accomplish exactly the same thing by making the SASS default "Not touching guns". I don't believe for an instant that consistency has to be every shooter doing everything exactly the same way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Creeker, SASS #43022 Posted July 18, 2016 Share Posted July 18, 2016 But... since when is bent over with your hat below your belt a shooting stance? But... Since we are all free to pick our shooting styles. Since we are all free to pick our equipment. Our calibers. Our propellant. Our leather style. Why is something as minute as picking your starting stance this big of a deal? Honestly, this strikes me as likely one of those instances that occurs from time to time where "someone" took offense at someone else not being in tune with their specific idea of "cowboy"; complained loudly about it, riled enough folks up and obviously then something had to be done about it. Sound and fury signifying nothing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smokin Gator SASS #29736 Posted July 18, 2016 Share Posted July 18, 2016 If the SASS default was "not touching guns" would only touching one gun be allowed? It said "guns". Smokin Gator Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ace_of_Hearts Posted July 18, 2016 Share Posted July 18, 2016 If the SASS default was "not touching guns" would only touching one gun be allowed? It said "guns". Smokin Gator Methinks that you sir, are a trouble maker! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C0ckr0ach, SASS #26100 Posted July 18, 2016 Share Posted July 18, 2016 PWB; Re. Post #85 I re-read as you suggested. My comment is applicable. Human creativity will write the starting position in the Stage Description to negate the particular default condition being discussed, as many have suggested. Why not revisit this particular default condition based on the various opinions expressed in this String ? Why have a default condition where many will write the Stage Description just to avoid ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sgt. John Campbell, SASS #58165 Posted July 18, 2016 Share Posted July 18, 2016 The following, from the SASS Shooters Handbook, has been part of the Stage Conventions for some time now, not some new idea being imposed on CAS shooters. I honestly cannot understand what all of the discussion and hand wringing is about this Stage Convention as of late: "9. If no starting position is given, the shooter shall stand upright with revolvers holstered and hands at the side, not touching any firearm." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deuce Stevens SASS#55996 Posted July 18, 2016 Share Posted July 18, 2016 But... since when is bent over with your hat below your belt a shooting stance? Another bingo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spades Hanlin SASS#66204 Posted July 18, 2016 Share Posted July 18, 2016 I have to agree with the thought of what upright means from club to club.. I can see it now giant T Square's being used. Rules freaks freaking out!!! Oh the humanity !!!! Spades H. Hey EMN next time you shoot with us I'll be sure to bring my rubber T Square so you don't have to worry!! LOL... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wyatt Posted July 18, 2016 Share Posted July 18, 2016 Pictures are worth a thousand posts Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spades Hanlin SASS#66204 Posted July 18, 2016 Share Posted July 18, 2016 Pictures are worth a thousand posts Now Wyatt you know camera's scare me!!! Spades H. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billy Boots, # 20282 LTG-Regulator Posted July 18, 2016 Share Posted July 18, 2016 When this thread started I did not give it much serious thought other than, among a few other points, the clarification of Stage Convention that emphasizes a in-place default shooting position to cover the fact that "standing upright" to be for a start of in hand/port arms long guns or revolvers. I have felt the term upright was just that, upright, not crouching over nor hat brim below belly button. I continued to follow post and still felt that no one was asking any shooter to have a straight spine nor change their comfortable "upright", fairly straight, standing stance (feet as per shooter's comfort). As the posts continue to grow in pages the reads began to bother me more so I took a look at Shooting Bull's (who I do not know other than by wire)link to a video. Maybe it is a bad angle and/or I need to watch it more, but I do see from it what Max's excellent post (#87) refers...there will be inconsistency on the call of upright. I do not advocate slumping, crouching, or even leaning over the table and the default convention is in place to use if stage writer does not state otherwise. But, I do not believe anyone should be forced to correct a personable posture for any TO. .....and I keep assuring myself that this clarification does not imply such. I may be wrong in my thinking of what I believe the intent of clarification was.....and if so when a TO tries to talk me into a correction of my 70+ year old "poor posture" then I will be unhappy, and will expect any shooter to be if uncomfortable. (not to be confused with not liking stage start). And to think a P could be given after the stage is shot because position was declared illegal after the beep...just wrong. Since the starting use of this default position several years ago, it has probably bothered those who have practiced long and hard in a "heavy lean" (?) position, and tall shooters might have preferred more leaning over the table, but it was simply a default and if stage writers made a position option then the default was not needed. In post #78 Creeker as stage writer offers the suggestion to comfort all. Thanks Max for your post, I agree with your praise of those who work hard on keeping our game fun and "controlled". And, I also agree on your feel that there will be, or even have been, inconsistency in the call of "upright". I hope the inconsistent calls have been minor and not to a point to make anyone uncomfortable in their posture/position...not to say the default was one the shooter would have preferred. Conventions are in place for use when stage writers do not offer an optional out, or even perhaps forgotten to offer one. These conventions should generally help flow of game not put a "hardship" on shooter or TO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Muerto Negro Posted July 18, 2016 Share Posted July 18, 2016 I have to agree with the thought of what upright means from club to club.. I can see it now giant T Square's being used. Rules freaks freaking out!!! Oh the humanity !!!! Spades H. Hey EMN next time you shoot with us I'll be sure to bring my rubber T Square so you don't have to worry!! LOL... Thanks Spades! Lol I was hoping to come up for your August match but looks like I can't make the date work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whiskey Kid Posted July 18, 2016 Share Posted July 18, 2016 I just went thru the stages for Eldorado - the Nevada State Championships. My personal opinion is a starting position is defined when the shooter is told where to stand AND has been given a specific task. In the absence of a specific task; the stage convention is necessary. I find it difficult to accept the premise that in the absence of specifically addressing the curvature of their spine, I have failed to give a starting position. But I will abide by SASS rules. So to avoid requiring my shooters to adopt the SULAI (standing upright like an idiot) position every stage. I have been forced to add - shooters choice of body posture. Shooter begins at window - rifle in hands. Shooters choice of body posture. Shooter begins at mine shaft - dynamite held in both hands. Shooters choice of body posture. Shooters begins at hanging tree - both hands touching rope. Shooters choice of body posture. I write my matches. I will allow my shooters to decide how is best to position their bodies for their upcoming actions. I will not allow a misguided attempt at forced regimentation to require SULAI positioning at any shoot I am affiliated with. + 1 Creeker! Looking forward to my first Eldorado! When this thread started I did not give it much serious thought other than, among a few other points, the clarification of Stage Convention that emphasizes a in-place default shooting position to cover the fact that "standing upright" to be for a start of in hand/port arms long guns or revolvers. I have felt the term upright was just that, upright, not crouching over nor hat brim below belly button. I continued to follow post and still felt that no one was asking any shooter to have a straight spine nor change their comfortable "upright", fairly straight, standing stance (feet as per shooter's comfort). As the posts continue to grow in pages the reads began to bother me more so I took a look at Shooting Bull's (who I do not know other than by wire)link to a video. Maybe it is a bad angle and/or I need to watch it more, but I do see from it what Max's excellent post (#87) refers...there will be inconsistency on the call of upright. I do not advocate slumping, crouching, or even leaning over the table and the default convention is in place to use if stage writer does not state otherwise. But, I do not believe anyone should be forced to correct a personable posture for any TO. .....and I keep assuring myself that this clarification does not imply such. I may be wrong in my thinking of what I believe the intent of clarification was.....and if so when a TO tries to talk me into a correction of my 70+ year old "poor posture" then I will be unhappy, and will expect any shooter to be if uncomfortable. (not to be confused with not liking stage start). And to think a P could be given after the stage is shot because position was declared illegal after the beep...just wrong. Since the starting use of this default position several years ago, it has probably bothered those who have practiced long and hard in a "heavy lean" (?) position, and tall shooters might have preferred more leaning over the table, but it was simply a default and if stage writers made a position option then the default was not needed. In post #78 Creeker as stage writer offers the suggestion to comfort all. Thanks Max for your post, I agree with your praise of those who work hard on keeping our game fun and "controlled". And, I also agree on your feel that there will be, or even have been, inconsistency in the call of "upright". I hope the inconsistent calls have been minor and not to a point to make anyone uncomfortable in their posture/position...not to say the default was one the shooter would have preferred. Conventions are in place for use when stage writers do not offer an optional out, or even perhaps forgotten to offer one. These conventions should generally help flow of game not put a "hardship" on shooter or TO. Well said Billy! WK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cheyenne Ranger, 48747L Posted July 18, 2016 Share Posted July 18, 2016 so if I go to the doctor and have him remove 10" off each femur so I would be closer to the stages long guns would I be awarded a P each time or a Spirit of the Game penalty?... or would I be good to go with this set-up? cr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Griff Posted July 18, 2016 Share Posted July 18, 2016 Y'all are makin' a mountain outta molehill. Billy, you're right again, if I divine your meaning. Nothing in said clarification negates Rule #4, ROI, ver 21.6, pg 5, or ANYTHING in the ROIII manual. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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