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Rule Clarifications from EOT TG Meeting


Keystone, SASS # 47578

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Howdy,

 

Was wondering how well clubs, shooters & timer operators are adapting to the rule clarifications that went in to affect after EOT. Especially with regard to "Starting in a Faulted Position" and "Standing Upright".

 

Hasta Luego, Keystone

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Howdy,

 

Was wondering how well clubs, shooters & timer operators are adapting to the rule clarifications that went in to affect after EOT. Especially with regard to "Starting in a Faulted Position" and "Standing Upright".

 

Hasta Luego, Keystone

What rules are they?

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Posted by PWB

Courtesy of Shamrock Sadie:

 

· Hats: Classic Cowboy/Cowgirl and B-Western (ladies and men) are required to wear hats on their heads, not hanging by a stampede from your string or anywhere else. This is already a rule; just a clarification.

 

· Carrying of shot shell ammo: Cannot carry ammo on holsters for later use. It is considered illegally acquired ammo.

o SHB, p. 22, (Range Operations): “The penalty for using "illegally acquired" ammunition (i.e., NOT carried to the line/staged by the shooter in an approved manner) is a PROCEDURAL. Any targets hit using that ammo are scored as MISSES.”

 

· Starting in a faulted position: ROI, p. 6, 5.f. (Timer Operator): “The Timer Operator never starts a competitor in a faulted position or location. It is not considered a faulted position or location for allowing a shooter to start without appropriately loaded guns or available ammunition on their person.” The decision has been made and a clarification will be addressed in the ROI handbook that failure on the shooter to start in the correct starting position or location will be scored a Procedural, not a reshoot.

o Example of firearm in hands: If the starting position is with a firearm in hands and the shooter starts with the firearm on the table, then it is scored as a Procedural, not a reshoot. Just because the shooter picks up the firearm after the beep, it is not considered corrected.

 

· Safety checks: Unloading table officers should check that they can see the follower to ensure there is no ammo in the magazine (rifle and shotguns). Look for rounds in the magazine and have shooter work the action of a ’97.

 

· Standing upright: If shooter is to start with hands on hat or other stance, they must remain standing upright until after the beep, unless stage instructions indicate otherwise.

 

o Example: Just because the scenario states to point 1 hand downrange does not mean the shooter can have the other hand on the gun or bend down over the gun, unless stage instructions state otherwise. The other hand must be at SASS default, at side not touching guns and shooter must be standing upright.

 

· B-Western pistol style: B-Western shooters can change their pistol shooting style in the middle of the pistol string. This is already a rule; just a clarification.

o Example: Shooter can start shooting gunfighter for 5 rounds, place pistols on table to shoot a long gun and then shoot each gun in a traditional style.

 

· Wild Bunch: Shooters can shoot Henry Big Boy rifles now.

 

The proposed parameters and regulations for the "What's the Call" forum were also read for consideration.

That is a "working document" that will be finalized by the WB & ROC.

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I shot with the High Desert Drifters Saturday. The TG briefed the club on the changes and we implemented immediately. Tex demonstrated the addition step need to clear a '73.

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Couple of matches under our belts already with the adjustments to rules being enforced.

 

No issues at the matches.

 

TO's do have to watch shooter's starting position so they can (try to) correct a shooter before starting the timer, and if an incorrect starting stance is noticed by spotters and mentioned later, the TO can make a better final decision if the P is to be awarded for not taking a correct stance.

 

Standing upright, when that is required either by stage convention or stage description, will be the toughest challenge for many shooters. But, even the slowest learners will figure it out after a few Ps. :lol:

 

Good luck, GJ

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· Standing upright: If shooter is to start with hands on hat or other stance, they must remain standing upright until after the beep, unless stage instructions indicate otherwise.

 

o Example: Just because the scenario states to point 1 hand downrange does not mean the shooter can have the other hand on the gun or bend down over the gun, unless stage instructions state otherwise. The other hand must be at SASS default, at side not touching guns and shooter must be standing upright.

 

Okay, I know this is nit picking but I've been curious for a year and a half now. This seems like the opportune time to ask my question. Winter Range 2015 the stage instructions said, "Shooter begins with rifle in hand..........." Nothing was mentioned about standing. I took my position and as always crouched down a bit. An "athletic stance" for lack of a better description. TO made me stand up straight before he'd start the timer. So, just to be clear, unless specifically stated in the stage description, the shooter ALWAYS starts standing straight up, is that right?

 

Here's the video from Grizzly Dave showing my stance:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ALRJqbGOKQ&list=PL5vdCU9fJVcWxF8J11WArswFWZyKT2eiM

 

 

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Okay, I know this is nit picking but I've been curious for a year and a half now. This seems like the opportune time to ask my question. Winter Range 2015 the stage instructions said, "Shooter begins with rifle in hand..........." Nothing was mentioned about standing. I took my position and as always crouched down a bit. An "athletic stance" for lack of a better description. TO made me stand up straight before he'd start the timer. So, just to be clear, unless specifically stated in the stage description, the shooter ALWAYS starts standing straight up, is that right?

 

Here's the video from Grizzly Dave showing my stance:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ALRJqbGOKQ&list=PL5vdCU9fJVcWxF8J11WArswFWZyKT2eiM

 

 

 

I was actually surprised at this clarification. We have been following this rule in our area of the country for the past two or three years including, as you noted, Winter Range. If the stage says hands at low surrender that does not mean crouching down over your long guns if they staged on a table or getting into some contorted position if the handguns are first. A lot of people apparently interpreted the default position as meaning if the stage instructions deviated from the default in any way then the default position no longer applied at all. The clarificatiion, as I understand it, is that the default still applies with the exception of the deviation.

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Wonder why ammo on the belt is more appropriate than ammo on the holster? Assuming that my bullet loops on my holsters cannot carry bullets anymore?

Thanks,

Yellowboy

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The clarification was made due to many clubs/MDs/TOs being of the erroneous opinion that ANY specified shooting position negated ALL of the other Stage Conventions (including standing upright, hands on firearm/ammo, etc).

 

It was made to clear up the (apparent) misunderstanding of the "override" option.

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Wonder why ammo on the belt is more appropriate than ammo on the holster? Assuming that my bullet loops on my holsters cannot carry bullets anymore?

Thanks,

Yellowboy

 

The clarification only applies to SHOTGUN ammo mounted on the holster.

That method fails to comply with the "traditional" requirement for carrying ammo for stage reloads.

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Thank you sir for that clarification

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Okay, I know this is nit picking but I've been curious for a year and a half now. This seems like the opportune time to ask my question. Winter Range 2015 the stage instructions said, "Shooter begins with rifle in hand..........." Nothing was mentioned about standing. I took my position and as always crouched down a bit. An "athletic stance" for lack of a better description. TO made me stand up straight before he'd start the timer. So, just to be clear, unless specifically stated in the stage description, the shooter ALWAYS starts standing straight up, is that right?

 

Here's the video from Grizzly Dave showing my stance:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ALRJqbGOKQ&list=PL5vdCU9fJVcWxF8J11WArswFWZyKT2eiM

 

 

Your assessment is correct Grasshopper.

No more crouching tiger for you.

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Howdy,

 

Was wondering how well clubs, shooters & timer operators are adapting to the rule clarifications that went in to affect after EOT. Especially with regard to "Starting in a Faulted Position" and "Standing Upright".

 

Hasta Luego, Keystone

Keystone, as you well know it has been common practice in the southeast for stage writers to write stages with instructions like "starting with one hand on rifle" and considering that the starting position and intentionally allowing shooters to give gaming their best shot. . .of course with the understanding that it only applied regarding Stage Convention #9. . . since that is the only one that says, "If no starting position is given..."

 

What you might not know is this clarification is likely to be further clarified and possibly reversed when EOT is moved to Miami, Florida. There are also plans to have the sun rise in the west and set in the east to coincide with the move. :)

 

Shamrock Sadie has suggested wording that will allow stage writers to add a few words, "SASS default position does not apply" and bring it to the meaning that we're accustomed to. For anyone who might get confused; we know we can't start with ammunition in hand or load our shotguns in advance and we still have them other seven stage conventions too. To go over the math; 10 stage conventions minus #9 = 9. . . that you still have to follow. :)

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Hat question. Shooter starts stage with hat on head. After the beep, hat comes off due to wind, shooter movement, shooter intentionally or unintentionally knocks it off, eagle from sky swoops down and grabs it, whatever, it that a P? To paraphrase Big Jake "Your fault, my fault, nobodies fault, that hat come off your head I'm gonna give you a P".

 

the reason I ask is one venue that I shoot at has a mine shaft that shooter has to go through. its pretty tight, many folks either take their hat off or it gets knocked off while going thru it.

 

This of course, would only apply to the B Western & Classic Cowfolks.

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I would say ...after the beep,,, all bets are off!

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Our TG told us that shotgun slides could not be worn on pistol belts. That caused quite a bit of discussion as that's where a lot of them are worn, could you please elaborate on any rule changes regarding wearing a shotgun slide on a pistol belt. Could he be mistaking the above shotgun ammo worn on a pistol holster.? Thank you in advance, PWB.

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Our TG told us that shotgun slides could not be worn on pistol belts. That caused quite a bit of discussion as that's where a lot of them are worn, could you please elaborate on any rule changes regarding wearing a shotgun slide on a pistol belt. Could he be mistaking the above shotgun ammo worn on a pistol belt? Thank you in advance, PWB.

I see nothing in the rules that says belt slides are not allowed. About half the shooters in my neck of the woods use them rather than have a separate shotgun belt, but of course, PWB is better versed on the rules than I am

 

The only exception I would see is if you wore the slides above the belly button

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Shotgun slides cannot be added over shotgun belts, because the belt's loops cause the slide to stick out too much.

 

But lots of folks wear slides, for shotgun shell or cartridges, on their revolver belt. Not a problem.

 

Good luck, GJ

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Our TG told us that shotgun slides could not be worn on pistol belts. That caused quite a bit of discussion as that's where a lot of them are worn, could you please elaborate on any rule changes regarding wearing a shotgun slide on a pistol belt. Could he be mistaking the above shotgun ammo worn on a pistol belt? Thank you in advance, PWB.

 

Someone appears to have either a hearing or reading comprehension "issue".

 

There has been no such rule change/clarification regarding wearing SG ammo slides on pistol belts.

 

The clarification was regarding shotgun ammo mounted on the revolver HOLSTER...not the belt-loop portion of the rig or belt.

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Someone appears to have either a hearing or reading comprehension "issue".

 

There has been no such rule change/clarification regarding wearing SG ammo slides on pistol belts.

 

The clarification was regarding shotgun ammo mounted on the revolver HOLSTER...not the belt-loop portion of the rig or belt.

That's what I thought. Thanks for the response.

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Shotgun slides cannot be added over shotgun belts, because the belt's loops cause the slide to stick out too much.

 

But lots of folks wear slides, for shotgun shell or cartridges, on their revolver belt. Not a problem.

 

Good luck, GJ

I sometimes wear a shotgun slide on my shotgun belt, when I need more ammo than the belt holds. However, I don't wear it over the shot shell loops, which is against the rules, not the belt itself.

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· Starting in a faulted position: ROI, p. 6, 5.f. (Timer Operator): “The Timer Operator never starts a competitor in a faulted position or location. It is not considered a faulted position or location for allowing a shooter to start without appropriately loaded guns or available ammunition on their person.” The decision has been made and a clarification will be addressed in the ROI handbook that failure on the shooter to start in the correct starting position or location will be scored a Procedural, not a reshoot.

o Example of firearm in hands: If the starting position is with a firearm in hands and the shooter starts with the firearm on the table, then it is scored as a Procedural, not a reshoot. Just because the shooter picks up the firearm after the beep, it is not considered corrected.

 

Well; obviously we'll have to abide by whatever decisions the deciders decide. Personally, I think this one is just wrong. The TO is the one with their finger on the start button, if they press the button and the shooter is not in the correct position to start, that is at least as much their fault as it is the shooter's. I believe that the TO is in charge and it's their responsibility to make sure the stage is ready. e.g. targets reset, spotters ready, no one is downrange, and including the shooter is in the correct starting position. It doesn't seem quite fair for the TO to start the shooter in the wrong position and then after the beep, realizing the mistake, give them a penalty. Depending on exact circumstances I think it should be either a no call or re-start/re-shoot.

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Well; obviously we'll have to abide by whatever decisions the deciders decide. Personally, I think this one is just wrong. The TO is the one with their finger on the start button, if they press the button and the shooter is not in the correct position to start, that is at least as much their fault as it is the shooter's. I believe that the TO is in charge and it's their responsibility to make sure the stage is ready. e.g. targets reset, spotters ready, no one is downrange, and including the shooter is in the correct starting position. It doesn't seem quite fair for the TO to start the shooter in the wrong position and then after the beep, realizing the mistake, give them a penalty. Depending on exact circumstances I think it should be either a no call or re-start/re-shoot.

Just playing devil's advocate, but when I give the starting line to the TO, I am telling him I am ready and understand the stage. If I put myself in the wrong position, that is my fault. Most TOs that I know will remind the shooter before the line that they need to start at the window, hands on hat, etc

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Well; obviously we'll have to abide by whatever decisions the deciders decide. Personally, I think this one is just wrong. The TO is the one with their finger on the start button, if they press the button and the shooter is not in the correct position to start, that is at least as much their fault as it is the shooter's. I believe that the TO is in charge and it's their responsibility to make sure the stage is ready. e.g. targets reset, spotters ready, no one is downrange, and including the shooter is in the correct starting position. It doesn't seem quite fair for the TO to start the shooter in the wrong position and then after the beep, realizing the mistake, give them a penalty. Depending on exact circumstances I think it should be either a no call or re-start/re-shoot.

I am still a little befuddled as to why the shooter cannot correct on the clock........

We allow other "on clock" corrections to avoid procedural penalties, such as staging pistols on table. The shooter can place the pistols on the table, turn loose of them and then pick them up....... <pondering>

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I am still a little befuddled as to why the shooter cannot correct on the clock........

We allow other "on clock" corrections to avoid procedural penalties, such as staging pistols on table. The shooter can place the pistols on the table, turn loose of them and then pick them up....... <pondering>

Hell, we even allow a shooter to undo a safety violation on the clock without penalty. 😜 Haha.

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Well; obviously we'll have to abide by whatever decisions the deciders decide. Personally, I think this one is just wrong. The TO is the one with their finger on the start button, if they press the button and the shooter is not in the correct position to start, that is at least as much their fault as it is the shooter's. I believe that the TO is in charge and it's their responsibility to make sure the stage is ready. e.g. targets reset, spotters ready, no one is downrange, and including the shooter is in the correct starting position. It doesn't seem quite fair for the TO to start the shooter in the wrong position and then after the beep, realizing the mistake, give them a penalty. Depending on exact circumstances I think it should be either a no call or re-start/re-shoot.

I tend to lean the other way. I have seen far too many TO's that grab the timer ready for that first shooter and Not Know the Correct Starting Postion. And then turnaround and give a reshoot, after learning the first 2-3 shooters, that they timed, were started incorrectly. Too many reshoots....

 

That is not fair to those shooters that read and understood the starting position and the course of fire and adhered to it.

 

As you stated, If your a TO, you are in charge of the stage, you need to know the course of fire and everything pertaining to helping that shooter safely through it. Knowing the correct starting position is part of it.

 

If the TO is being influenced by the shooter's lack of knowledge of the starting position, and allowing an incorrect starting postion to occur, what does that say about that TO's qualification as a Time Operator?? We all can have times of brain fade, confusion, etc. that just puts the onus on the shooter, not the TO.

 

I agree wholeheartedly with this clarification.

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It doesn't seem quite fair for the TO to start the shooter in the wrong position and then after the beep, realizing the mistake, give them a penalty.

 

The other side of that same coin is that the TO didn't start the shooter in the wrong position, the shooter did it to himself. As has been said, when the shooter gives the TO the signal that they're ready to start the stage it means they're 100% ready, starting position and all.

 

Yes, as a TO I'm supposed to give each shooter a quick once over the ensure they have everything needed to begin the stage. If I happen to miss the fact that they have no shotgun ammo, what's the end result? The shooter eats the penalty, not me. I'll feel horrible, but it's still the shooter's responsibility to be ready to start the stage, not the TO's.

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Well; obviously we'll have to abide by whatever decisions the deciders decide. Personally, I think this one is just wrong. The TO is the one with their finger on the start button, if they press the button and the shooter is not in the correct position to start, that is at least as much their fault as it is the shooter's. I believe that the TO is in charge and it's their responsibility to make sure the stage is ready. e.g. targets reset, spotters ready, no one is downrange, and including the shooter is in the correct starting position. It doesn't seem quite fair for the TO to start the shooter in the wrong position and then after the beep, realizing the mistake, give them a penalty. Depending on exact circumstances I think it should be either a no call or re-start/re-shoot.

Hi Cody,

 

A no call is never a good idea when a shooter earns a P because that would allow the shooter to engage the stage differently than the other shooters.

 

A re-start is still okay as that means someone caught it before a round went down range.

 

Despite this being called a clarification, I cannot remember seeing a reshoot given for this.

 

Regards,

 

Allie

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It doesn't seem quite fair for the TO to start the shooter in the wrong position and then after the beep, realizing the mistake, give them a penalty.

It doesn't seem fair to the rest of the shooters that started in the correct, possibly slower, position to not penalize the shooter. As Shooting Bull said, it is ultimately the shooter's responsibility.

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With regard to the faulted position:

ROI, pg 6, 5.F. "The Timer Operator never starts a competitor in a faulted position or location. ..."

Please understand that I can be a little thick headed, but to me the shooter should not be awarded a Procedural because the TO was not doing their job. And yes, I understand that it is the shooters responsibility to understand the stage. But, by having the above sentence in the rules you have taken some of the shooters responsibility and placed it with the TO.

If we are going to award P's for starting in the wrong position, then the verbage should be changed from "never" to "should not" or ???

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The clarification is. Deal with it. We're all human and subject to human mistakes. Sure, as TOs, spotters, time keepers ULT/LT officers, I believe we all try our best... even strive for better than that... but that doesn't preclude mistakes. Same as when we're shooting. Regardless of stray sentences, from LT to firing line to ULT, the shooter is responsible. What... you want to abdicated that, and make someone else responsible so you don't have to worry about making a mistake.

 

Let me know how that works out for you... Not to politicize this, but just what is wrong with our country? Far too many folks want some one else to be responsible for them! Suck it up buttercup!

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The clarification is. Deal with it. We're all human and subject to human mistakes. Sure, as TOs, spotters, time keepers ULT/LT officers, I believe we all try our best... even strive for better than that... but that doesn't preclude mistakes. Same as when we're shooting. Regardless of stray sentences, from LT to firing line to ULT, the shooter is responsible. What... you want to abdicated that, and make someone else responsible so you don't have to worry about making a mistake.

 

Let me know how that works out for you... Not to politicize this, but just what is wrong with our country? Far too many folks want some one else to be responsible for them! Suck it up buttercup!

 

But fergawdsake, it's gonna cost me 10 SECONDS!!!!! :blink:

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The clarification is. Deal with it. We're all human and subject to human mistakes. Sure, as TOs, spotters, time keepers ULT/LT officers, I believe we all try our best... even strive for better than that... but that doesn't preclude mistakes. Same as when we're shooting. Regardless of stray sentences, from LT to firing line to ULT, the shooter is responsible. What... you want to abdicated that, and make someone else responsible so you don't have to worry about making a mistake.

 

Let me know how that works out for you... Not to politicize this, but just what is wrong with our country? Far too many folks want some one else to be responsible for them! Suck it up buttercup!

Griff, you sure are a cutie pie! :lol: , you nailed it! ;)

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