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Sweeping while drawing/holstering


McCandless

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I don't want to "step on anybody's toes" or point fingers... just a polite question about what occurred. I'm hoping that this won't be taken as an "attack" on anybody... I thoroughly enjoyed shooting with these folks.

 

I was spotting when a cross-draw holstered shooter came to the line. No problem, I am one myself. Shooter wore his cross-draw so the muzzle would be around where the side seam of his trousers would be. He's a right handed shooter. I'm to the shooters left and up-range. Shooter is square to the shooting line. He stays that way. When he draws the cross-draw pistol, I found I was looking down the barrel. When he holstered, I was looking down the barrel again.

I know the difference between just seeing the muzzle, and seeing the round "O" of a muzzle mouth.

 

I talked to the posse-marshal/ timer operator, and he said that the new rules say you don't have to turn so your cross-draw is downrange now. You have to allow the shooter to draw and holster his pistol unimpeded, that's not sweeping. (I'm not asking for folks to do a "cross-draw dance"...! Don't do it myself, don't want other folks to do it.)

 

Personally, I start side on to the line so my cross-draw is pointed downrange. I spotted the rest of the match from the shooter's right.

 

(Shooter is not in my category... so, I'm not trying to nail the competition).

 

Is his interpretation of the rules correct?

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I'm saying no if I understand your question.. You can sweep yourself w/o penalty, but NOT ANYONE ELSE! A reverse or cavalry draw would be appropriate. But, using the strong hand to pull a crossdraw, may require you to stand differently than square to the firing line, shuffle your feet a little (dance if you will), or twist your hips to have that muzzle pointed within the 170º when it CLEARS leather.

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I'm saying no if I understand your question.. You can sweep yourself w/o penalty, but NOT ANYONE ELSE! A reverse or cavalry draw would be appropriate. But, using the strong hand to pull a crossdraw, may require you to stand differently than square to the firing line, shuffle your feet a little (dance if you will), or twist your hips to have that muzzle pointed within the 170º when it CLEARS leather.

+1 for sure! An MDQ would have been appropriate, sweeping with a loaded gun.

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If you were really up range of the shooter and you could see the whole barrel pointed toward you shooter should be penalized. If you just saw the tip of the barrel and the hole in the end, shooter might not be penalized as it still could be within the 170. If shooter drew pistol from a cross draw that was adjacent to the left side of his leg and was standing square to the firing line and made no effort rotating his body clockwise (leaving his feet planted), he is at great risk of breaking the 170. As his pistol leaves the top of the holster it would be very hard to instantly get it pointed downrange. At least the PM or other should have a conversation with him the first time anyone saw it.

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I don't want to "step on anybody's toes" or point fingers... just a polite question about what occurred. I'm hoping that this won't be taken as an "attack" on anybody... I thoroughly enjoyed shooting with these folks.

 

I was spotting when a cross-draw holstered shooter came to the line. No problem, I am one myself. Shooter wore his cross-draw so the muzzle would be around where the side seam of his trousers would be. He's a right handed shooter. I'm to the shooters left and up-range. Shooter is square to the shooting line. He stays that way. When he draws the cross-draw pistol, I found I was looking down the barrel. When he holstered, I was looking down the barrel again.

I know the difference between just seeing the muzzle, and seeing the round "O" of a muzzle mouth.

 

I talked to the posse-marshal/ timer operator, and he said that the new rules say you don't have to turn so your cross-draw is downrange now. You have to allow the shooter to draw and holster his pistol unimpeded, that's not sweeping. (I'm not asking for folks to do a "cross-draw dance"...! Don't do it myself, don't want other folks to do it.)

 

Personally, I start side on to the line so my cross-draw is pointed downrange. I spotted the rest of the match from the shooter's right.

 

(Shooter is not in my category... so, I'm not trying to nail the competition).

 

Is his interpretation of the rules correct?

Would you please have that TO direct us to these NEW RULES......

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Would you please have that TO direct us to these NEW RULES......

New rule is that the 170* does not apply while drawing or holstering. He could have stayed within the rules if very careful that the muzzle never broke the 180* and went immediately into the 170* but since the op seems to have been swept, that was probably not the case.

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Rules don't require a dance. Rules DO require: not sweeping anyone else. Rules DO require: as gun clears leather, muzzle is required to be within the 170 degree cone of straight down range.

 

No amount of double talk from that RO will change those. The RO was flat out WRONG.

 

 

 

"You have to allow the shooter to draw and holster his pistol unimpeded, that's not sweeping."

 

Horse leavings! The rule as written is:

 

Although cross-draw and shoulder holsters are legal, they represent a significant safety concern. No holster may depart from the vertical by more than 30 (degrees) when worn. Extreme care must be exercised when drawing a firearm from a cross-draw or shoulder holster or returning the firearm to leather. The user must ―twist their body, if necessary, to ensure the muzzle never breaks the 170º safety rule during the process. (NOTE: The 170º safety rule means the muzzle of the firearm must always be straight down range +/- 85º in any direction. If a competitor comes close to breaking the 180º safety plane, the 170º safety rule has been violated and the competitor is at fault).

 

The restrictions against breaking the downrange 180º angle apply to ALL HOLSTERS and METHODS of DRAW/REHOLSTER. This allowance applies to ALL types/styles of holsters, from canted double strong side to cross draw, to shoulder/Huckleberry rigs. The muzzle of a revolver may be oriented into the straight down 180º as it clears leather; but MUST then go immediately into the DOWNRANGE 170º (and vice versa on the return).

 

It is also necessary to note that during the course of fire, the shooter must be given the ability to draw and holster revolvers from approved/legal holsters and the ability to retrieve and return vertically staged double-barreled shotguns without penalty. Any firearm that breaks the 170° safety rule will result in a Stage Disqualification.

RO I handbook, page 19, item 19

 

 

That second sentence of last paragraph DIRECTLY follows the first one. Both rules work together to keep us safe. No picking one rule to use and not taking the other!

 

Good luck, GJ

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Would you please have that TO direct us to these NEW RULES......

ROI page 19

 

The restrictions against breaking the downrange 180º angle apply to ALL HOLSTERS and METHODS of DRAW/REHOLSTER. This allowance applies to ALL types/styles of holsters, from canted double strong side to cross draw, to shoulder/Huckleberry rigs. The muzzle of a revolver may be oriented into the straight down 180º as it clears leather; but MUST then go immediately into the DOWNRANGE 170º (and vice versa on the return)

 

Sounds like what the TO said is not in accordance with this.

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ROI page 19

 

The restrictions against breaking the downrange 180º angle apply to ALL HOLSTERS and METHODS of DRAW/REHOLSTER. This allowance applies to ALL types/styles of holsters, from canted double strong side to cross draw, to shoulder/Huckleberry rigs. The muzzle of a revolver may be oriented into the straight down 180º as it clears leather; but MUST then go immediately into the DOWNRANGE 170º (and vice versa on the return)

 

Sounds like what the TO said is not in accordance with this.

 

Actually that is what the TO said. I should know, I was the TO. and for clarification, the shooter wears his crossdraw holster on the front of his body, not on his side. After the the OP voiced his concerns I was very careful to closely observe the shooter on the following stages and I did not see anything wrong with the way he was drawing/holstering. He sure was not sweeping anyone.

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The penalty for failure to turn/orientate the body so that the muzzle does not break the 170 when leaving the holster is and has been a Stage DQ. (There is an exemption for straight hang holsters)

 

Sweeping someone with a loaded gun as described in the Original Post is a Match DQ.

 

These rules have not changed as far as I know.

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I wear a cross draw on the front of my body. Canted downward at somewhat less than the mandated 30º angle above horizontal, using a 4-¾" Colt, I have to turn my body at almost a 45º angle to the firing line, so that when the muzzle clears leather the muzzle is inside the 170º. Admittedly, I'm a fat guy, but I can't get from holster to 170º without twisting my hips if I'm square on the firing line. If I don't, I'm sweeping some folks at the loading table.

 

I also use a pair of straight hang holsters occasionally, and I mean straight down, almost a perfect 180º from vertical.... as those 7-½" barrels come to the top of the holsters, I rotate them back so they're coming up to the horizontal pointed downrange.

 

For my own peace of mind, and in consideration of other shooters, I want to be as far inside that 85º as is practicable... not 84º or even 80º, I actually try to keep my muzzles inside the 45º as they clear leather... and yes, I expect others to do as well as they can. We've had a fellow come out to shoot with us that apparently couldn't keep his muzzles downrange... after numerous attempts to correct his draw, he ain't been back. Ain't no almost or maybes in it. The draw is the one time at which the shooter is most at risk for something untoward happening... If that hogleg comes out of a cross draw pointed anywhere but downrange, most folks'll DQ ya faster'n you can spit. If someone has to take a step back with one foot as they draw, and then step back up for shooting, ain't nuttin' but everyone's safety getting a nod.

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The penalty for failure to turn/orientate the body so that the muzzle does not break the 170 when leaving the holster is and has been a Stage DQ. (There is an exemption for straight hang holsters)

 

Sweeping someone with a loaded gun as described in the Original Post is a Match DQ.

 

These rules have not changed as far as I know.

That exemption now applies to ALL SASS legal holsters, not just the strait hang holsters. See ROI Page 19. It's highlighted in yellow.

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SASS SHB, Page 25

21. Although cross draw and shoulder holsters are legal, they represent a significant safety concern. No holster may depart from the vertical by more than 30° when worn. Extreme care must be exercised when drawing a firearm from a cross draw or shoulder holster or returning the firearm to leather. The user must twist their body, if necessary, to ensure the muzzle never breaks the 170° safety rule during the process. (NOTE: The 170° safety rule means the muzzle of the firearm must always be straight down range +/- 85° in any direction. If a competitor ―comes close‖ to breaking the 180° safety plane, the 170° safety rule has been violated and the competitor is at fault.

 

22. The restrictions against breaking the downrange 180º angle apply to ALL HOLSTERS and METHODS of DRAW/REHOLSTER. This allowance applies to ALL types/styles of holsters, from canted double strong side to cross draw, to shoulder/Huckleberry rigs.

 

23. The muzzle of a revolver may be oriented into the straight down 180º as it clears leather; but MUST then go immediately into the DOWNRANGE 170º (and vice versa on the return)

24. It is also necessary to note that during the course of fire, the shooter must be given the ability to draw and holster revolvers from approved/legal holsters and the ability to retrieve and return vertically staged double-barreled shotguns without penalty. Any firearm that breaks the 170° safety rule will result in a Stage Disqualification

 

You will note the red sections as germain to this post.

(21) states that the "user must twist their body, if necessary, to ensure the muzzle never breaks the 170 safety rule during the process.

(23) tells us that it's ok for the muzzle to be straight down, 180, but must immediately go into the downrange 170.

(24) removes the "straight hang" portion of the old rule and states "approved/legal" holsters.

 

So, If the shooter pulls his revolver and the muzzle sweeps anyone on the way to the 170, it's a MDQ, sweeping with a loaded gun. On the way back to the holster, it's a SDQ.

 

It's apparent this TO needs to review the rules and/or take a refresher course.

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I swear if you wear a crossdraw rig, you are held to a different standard than the strong side guys! I've watched sloppy gun handling way more with the strong side shooters in general, during the draw, and the reholstering, than I have the crossdraw shooters. If the crossdraw guy is close to the 170, everyone is laying for him. Its not right, but its true. Nobody will resolve the 0P without seeing it from several angles.

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Actually that is what the TO said. I should know, I was the TO. and for clarification, the shooter wears his crossdraw holster on the front of his body, not on his side. After the the OP voiced his concerns I was very careful to closely observe the shooter on the following stages and I did not see anything wrong with the way he was drawing/holstering. He sure was not sweeping anyone.

 

No offense intended Marshal. Often on these type threads the OP doesn't give enough detail, or the description isn't clear enough to fully understand the situation. That's why I said "sounds like the TO" not 'the TO did....".

 

Having said that, if you were quoted accurately below then that seems a bit incomplete. For one I'm not sure what drawing unimpeded means. To my knowledge the 'dance' has never been a real requirement, but not pointing your gun up range while drawing has. You may not have to ensure your draw is downrange, but you do have to ensure it's at least within the 180. The OP's description varies considerably from yours, so clearly someone is mistaken. He says the shooter was pointing it up range on the draw and wears it to the side, you're saying he didn't point it up range and he wears it to the center.

I don't want to "step on anybody's toes" or point fingers... just a polite question about what occurred. I'm hoping that this won't be taken as an "attack" on anybody... I thoroughly enjoyed shooting with these folks.

 

I was spotting when a cross-draw holstered shooter came to the line. No problem, I am one myself. Shooter wore his cross-draw so the muzzle would be around where the side seam of his trousers would be. He's a right handed shooter. I'm to the shooters left and up-range. Shooter is square to the shooting line. He stays that way. When he draws the cross-draw pistol, I found I was looking down the barrel. When he holstered, I was looking down the barrel again.

I know the difference between just seeing the muzzle, and seeing the round "O" of a muzzle mouth.

 

I talked to the posse-marshal/ timer operator, and he said that the new rules say you don't have to turn so your cross-draw is downrange now. You have to allow the shooter to draw and holster his pistol unimpeded, that's not sweeping. (I'm not asking for folks to do a "cross-draw dance"...! Don't do it myself, don't want other folks to do it.)

 

Personally, I start side on to the line so my cross-draw is pointed downrange. I spotted the rest of the match from the shooter's right.

 

(Shooter is not in my category... so, I'm not trying to nail the competition).

 

Is his interpretation of the rules correct?

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Actually that is what the TO said. I should know, I was the TO. and for clarification, the shooter wears his crossdraw holster on the front of his body, not on his side. After the the OP voiced his concerns I was very careful to closely observe the shooter on the following stages and I did not see anything wrong with the way he was drawing/holstering. He sure was not sweeping anyone.

 

The shooter is NEVER allowed to point the muzzle of an unholstered revolver UPRANGE (breaking the 180) at any time.

​SDQ for failure to maintain muzzle control.

Sweeping anyone else compounds the violation (SDQ for unloaded...MDQ if loaded)

 

​The "new rules" simply expand the "straight hang" allowance to all holster types, as long as the uprange 180 is not violated.

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I swear if you wear a crossdraw rig, you are held to a different standard than the strong side guys! I've watched sloppy gun handling way more with the strong side shooters in general, during the draw, and the reholstering, than I have the crossdraw shooters. If the crossdraw guy is close to the 170, everyone is laying for him. Its not right, but its true. Nobody will resolve the 0P without seeing it from several angles.

 

This is a faulty observation of reality at the matches I attend, shoot in, and RO in, IMHO.

 

There's not a lot of calling of sweeping or breaking the 170 at matches with experienced shooters. It actually very rare. Because the mistake is rare with shooters with lots of practice and presence of mind when handling their revolvers. And they continually remind themselves of the importance of perfect gun handling at all points in the draw.

 

There just is MORE OPPORTUNITY for the cross draw shooter to break the 170. If wearing in front of hip, muzzle starts right at the 170 cone boundary (plus or minus a few degrees). If wearing close to the point of the hip, muzzle is at about 200-230 degrees cone as it sits in holster, so it takes a STRONG hip shift or foot shift to ensure the muzzle is good as it departs leather. When the cross draw shooter starts with the muzzle "close to the line" it only takes a small error in judgement to get across the line into a violation.

 

It DOES NOT take several angles of view to spot a 170 violation. The TO is usually in the best position (has the best angle to be able to see where the 170 cone is), but he is sometimes shielded by the shooter's body. The Spotter on the cross draw side usually has a good view, IF he remembers to watch the draw (as he should!)

 

Nobody that I have seen TOing is "laying" for the cross draw shooter". Folks earn the award (broke 170, or swept someone), it's not that they are handed a penalty because someone has it out for them.

 

Good luck, GJ

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The shooter is NEVER allowed to point the muzzle of an unholstered revolver UPRANGE (breaking the 180) at any time.

​SDQ for failure to maintain muzzle control.

Sweeping anyone else compounds the violation (SDQ for unloaded...MDQ if loaded)

 

​The "new rules" simply expand the "straight hang" allowance to all holster types, as long as the uprange 180 is not violated.

So can a cross draw shooter break the 170 to the 180 while drawing and holstering? As far as the OP stating he was swept....maybe he was but I was the TO and I didn't see anything on that stage that cause me any concern and on the subsequent stages I was extra careful to watch how the shooter was drawing/holstering and I did not see him break the 170 while drawing. The shooter wears his crossdraw holster on his front, not to the side and stands with his left foot slightly forward of his right foot so I don't see how he could have swept anyone.. He holsters with his weak hand with the barrel of the revolver pointing down until it enters the holster. Maybe some of you shouldn't be so quick to hang the TO when you were not there. I was the TO, it was my call and I'd make the same call again.

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I think this topic is as old as the sport itself. After 8 plus years of wearing a crossdraw rig, and never being called on a 170 violation, ill stand behind what I stated earlier. Being in a posse up on the rules, and experienced crowd really helps, but not all clubs, and or posse members are up to speed on this one.

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This doesn't help answer the situation of O.P. But for the record, I can stand square to the line with an approved cross draw holster on my left hip to the side of the leg, with the butt of the holstered pistol also square to the shooting line and draw, acquire, and shoot a down range target without breaking the 170. It's really not difficult.

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So can a cross draw shooter break the 170 to the 180 while drawing and holstering?

YES...see the rules quoted from the SHB & RO1 in previous posts.

...

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BTW - Doing "the twist" has never been mandatory...as long as the revolver muzzle never points uprange (sweeping others or not)

 

While it's NEVER been the written word, You dang well better, IF its necessary for you to do so, in order to maintain the 170 when drawing from your cross draw. Better scenario is to learn to wear the cross draw CORRECTLY, on the front of your leg, and positioning yourself properly when at the line, making shifting your body unnecessary.

 

Many shooters throw a hissie fit when you mention "doing the dance". Those shooters however have learned the correct way to wear their holsters, as well as how to correctly position themselves at the line before drawing.

 

RBK

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Easy there folks. Dang, I certainly didn't want to flame anybody, and I was posting for my own information, should I be the RO, when a situation occurs as I perceived it. Please don't jump on the Marshal. He did an excellent job herding our Posse through the 2 days. I would still like to shoot with that group again... although now I'm not sure they'd have me. Next time I'll do the LT or ULT.

 

McC

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Easy there folks. Dang, I certainly didn't want to flame anybody, and I was posting for my own information, should I be the RO, when a situation occurs as I perceived it. Please don't jump on the Marshal. He did an excellent job herding our Posse through the 2 days. I would still like to shoot with that group again... although now I'm not sure they'd have me. Next time I'll do the LT or ULT.

 

McC

Duc I'll shoot with you anytime. Not saying you didn't see what you saw but from my perspective as the TO I didn't see it and neither did any of the other spotters. I did ask them after you approached me. The only thing I'm saying you are mistaken about is where the shooter wears his crossdraw. He wears it on the front, that's one thing I'm 100% sure of. Hope to see you again soon. Happy Trails

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So can a cross draw shooter break the 170 to the 180 while drawing and holstering?

YES...see the rules quoted from the SHB & RO1 in previous posts.

...

 

I knew that I just wanted you to say it because the first part of the rule says "The user must ―twist‖ their body, if necessary, to ensure the muzzle never breaks the 170 safety rule during the process. (NOTE: The 170 safety rule means the muzzle of the fire-arm must always be straight down range +/- 85 in any direction."

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While it's NEVER been the written word, You dang well better, IF its necessary for you to do so, in order to maintain the 170 when drawing from your cross draw. Better scenario is to learn to wear the cross draw CORRECTLY, on the front of your leg, and positioning yourself properly when at the line, making shifting your body unnecessary.

 

Many shooters throw a hissie fit when you mention "doing the dance". Those shooters however have learned the correct way to wear their holsters, as well as how to correctly position themselves at the line before drawing.

 

RBK

 

The point of that post was to clarify the issue for those who might attempt to penalize a shooter for "failure to dance"...watching the shooter's ... ... back pocket instead of the muzzle direction of revolver itself.

 

 

I knew that I just wanted you to say it because the first part of the rule says "The user must ―twist‖ their body, if necessary, to ensure the muzzle never breaks the 170 safety rule during the process. (NOTE: The 170 safety rule means the muzzle of the fire-arm must always be straight down range +/- 85 in any direction."

 

If that statement is read & applied as a "stand alone" rule without continuing on to the "exception" to allow a safe draw/reholster, miscalls on the 170 are bound to be made.

 

Not saying that anyone here is guilty of any of those practices...just clarifying for those readers who might be a bit confused by some of the thread commentary.

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I'm confused on this and want to ask a question. So someone can break the 170 while drawing or oldster but they can not break the 180?

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While it's NEVER been the written word, You dang well better, IF its necessary for you to do so, in order to maintain the 170 when drawing from your cross draw. Better scenario is to learn to wear the cross draw CORRECTLY, on the front of your leg, and positioning yourself properly when at the line, making shifting your body unnecessary.

 

Many shooters throw a hissie fit when you mention "doing the dance". Those shooters however have learned the correct way to wear their holsters, as well as how to correctly position themselves at the line before drawing.

 

RBK

 

 

Holster worn "CORRECTLY" according to what standard? I didn't know there was a right or wrong way to wear your leather, just a personal preference.

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Holster worn "CORRECTLY" according to what standard? I didn't know there was a right or wrong way to wear your leather, just a personal preference.

 

RT#M. All holsters have a maximum angle of 30 degrees they can deviate from vertical. Holsters must be at least TWO fists distance apart, and each must be on a different side of the body centerline.

 

There's a bunch more rules in the SHB. Better read page 11. Ignorance of the book is no excuse. :lol:

 

Good luck, GJ

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I'm confused on this and want to ask a question. So someone can break the 170 while drawing or oldster but they can not break the 180?

Yes, rule used to allow 180 limit from straight hang while drawing and holstering. Recently changed to allow it 180 for all legal holsters.

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RT#M. All holsters have a maximum angle of 30 degrees they can deviate from vertical. Holsters must be at least TWO fists distance apart, and each must be on a different side of the body centerline.

 

There's a bunch more rules in the SHB. Better read page 11. Ignorance of the book is no excuse. :lol:

 

Good luck, GJ

 

I'm aware of those rules, my point was that a cross draw worn on the side as long as it doesn't break the 30 degrees is OK, doesn't have to be worn in front to be "CORRECT".

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Here's another twist (no pun intended).

The 180 draw/immediate downrange 170 and allowing to hit 180 to holster, gets all boogered up with straight hang holsters at times.

How many of you have seen a shooter returning their revolver to holster and miss the bucket with the muzzle of the revolver going behind the holster, then the shooter tries reholstering again and gets it in the bucket.

 

Well, that point where the revolver has missed the bucket and is pointing to the rear breaks the 180 allowance for drawing and reholstering.

 

How many times have you seen that called?

 

I discussed this with a PM at a State Match a few years ago and his reply was "well, my friend xxxx, does it all the time and I don't feel comfortable calling him on it".

Karma had the PM miss the bucket while I was timing and I called him on it.

 

The rule is No Revolver may break the 180, to or from the holster and downrange. Straight hang or Cross Draw. The penalties are explained in the manuals.

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