What's the call on Ear Plugs missing

[Captain Bill Burt]

For those of you who think it's not a safety issue, and/or that the level of noise we're exposed to isn't harmful I suggest you rethink. There's tons of research on noise related hearing loss.

 

http://american-hearing.org/disorders/noise-induced-hearing-loss/

 

https://www.nidcd.nih.gov/health/noise-induced-hearing-loss

[Ace_of_Hearts]

I guess we will be checking the shooters for proper application of Sun Block pretty soon. Could be a safety issue.

[Straight Arrow Hombre]

The TO should hold the timer in his/her teeth and insert their fingers in the shooters ears.

[Smokestack SASS#87384]

I guess we will be checking the shooters for proper application of Sun Block pretty soon. Could be a safety issue.

And when the breeze changes direction it may increase my exposure to lead exponentially. We all know and studies have shown that heavy metals poisoning is cumulative, like hearing damage, and can cause brain damage. I guess we should get a re shoot anytime the wind changes......

[Blastmaster]

 

Shooter comes to the line..

Has a squib on his 3rd round..

"Cease fire" no reshoot..

Shooters (reloaders) error..

 

For the sake of argument, what would be your new call on the above if there was no squib and you, as the TO, had declared the "'Cease Fire"?

Same with ear plugs.. Shooters error.. No reshoot.. But..

I Would allow them to fix the error ON THE CLOCK..

 

Rance

Thinkin' they own the stage..

[Smokestack SASS#87384]

 

Shooter comes to the line..

Has a squib on his 3rd round..

"Cease fire" no reshoot..

Shooters (reloaders) error..

 

For the sake of argument, what would be your new call on the above if there was no squib and you, as the TO, had declared the "'Cease Fire"?

Same with ear plugs.. Shooters error.. No reshoot.. But..

I Would allow them to fix the error ON THE CLOCK..

 

Rance

Thinkin' they own the stage..

 

If no squib they would be given a re shoot for RO interference.

[Rance - SASS # 54090]

If no squib they would be given a re shoot for RO interference.

Agree with Smokestack..

 

But the ear protection?? shooters error..

Fix it on the clock if they want to continue...

 

Rance

My thinkin' only here..

[Casey Green]

I think it's pretty clear that as far as SASS rules are concerned it's no call, no reshoot, shooters reponsibility. However I don't think anyone would argue that at most local monthly matches the shooter would be granted a reshoot, and I don't have a problem with that as long as it doesn't become a pattern. As soon as there is any indication it is being done for any kind of advantage (i.e. call for reshoot if stage isn't going well) additional action needs to be taken. However if it's a genuine mistake, I don't understand why anyone would have a problem with the shooter getting a reshoot at the local level.

[Captain Bill Burt]

I guess we will be checking the shooters for proper application of Sun Block pretty soon. Could be a safety issue.

Actually we have one local shooter who covers everything to protect from the sun. Multiple bouts of skin cancer will make a man cautious. Of course you don't absorb enough sun in the little time you're shooting to matter. But you could do damage to your hearing over the course of 24 shots.

 

And when the breeze changes direction it may increase my exposure to lead exponentially. We all know and studies have shown that heavy metals poisoning is cumulative, like hearing damage, and can cause brain damage. I guess we should get a re shoot anytime the wind changes......

So you don't wash your hands after shooting to get the lead off? I don't know about you, but my lead levels have been slightly elevated ever since I started reloading and shooting cowboy.

 

As I'm sure you're both aware neither of those are valid comparisons to the question at hand.

 

Personally it hasn't happened enough for me to have to take a position on what the call would be at a monthly at Doc Holliday's, but now that I've thought about it I would probably allow a reshoot the first time it happened, assuming it wasn't a deliberate act. After that probably not.

 

I think it's perfectly acceptable to take a position of no reshoot at a club level, but I disagree with statements that minimize the possibility of hearing damage or that imply there is some significant number of people out there who try to use this to their advantage.

 

I'm sure some posters on this thread will hate the fact that we have a local club that allows one equipment related reshoot per person per match at their monthly matches. It doesn't bother me, though I've never availed myself of it.

[Smokestack SASS#87384]

 

 

So you don't wash your hands after shooting to get the lead off? I don't know about you, but my lead levels have been slightly elevated ever since I started reloading and shooting cowboy.

 

As I'm sure you're both aware neither of those are valid comparisons to the question at hand.

 

 

 

I think it's perfectly acceptable to take a position of no reshoot at a club level, but I disagree with statements that minimize the possibility of hearing damage or that imply there is some significant number of people out there who try to use this to their advantage.

 

 

I'm sure some posters on this thread will hate the fact that we have a local club that allows one equipment related reshoot per person per match at their monthly matches. It doesn't bother me, though I've never availed myself of it.

Yes, I wash my hands but hopefully you are aware that breathing in lead particles can also increase your lead levels so I do think it is a valid comparrison, (if equally as silly).

 

I do believe that shooting without ear protection can and almost certainly will cause hearing loss as I work in a very noisy industry and suffer the effects myself. That being said, nobody is advocating forcing someone to continue a stage without it but giving them a re shoot and not giving the guy in their category one who forgot to load his pistols one is wrong and without basis in the rule book. As to people using this to their advantage, sadly I have seen worse.

 

I personally have no problem with your club doing whatever the shooters there want them to do but in my opinion ALL sanctioned clubs should play by the rules.

[Blastmaster]

If no squib they would be given a re shoot for RO interference.

That is where I was going with the question.

 

If shooter calls a self cease fire on a suspected squib, and no one says nothing, then he eats it (penalties) , no matter what, because no TO interference. Shooters judgement that he is terminating a potential Health & Safety situation, or he just continues and stacks the bullets in the barrel.

 

There is some corraeation between an early cease fire to resolve an ear plug issue and a early cease fire to resolve a squib.

 

Carry on,,,, as I mentioned earlier, I haven't witnessed a self imposed or TO commanded Cease Fire because of a missing ear plug.

[Captain Bill Burt]

Yes, I wash my hands but hopefully you are aware that breathing in lead particles can also increase your lead levels so I do think it is a valid comparrison, (if equally as silly).

I do believe that shooting without ear protection can and almost certainly will cause hearing loss as I work in a very noisy industry and suffer the effects myself. That being said, nobody is advocating forcing someone to continue a stage without it but giving them a re shoot and not giving the guy in their category one who forgot to load his pistols one is wrong and without basis in the rule book. As to people using this to their advantage, sadly I have seen worse.

 

I personally have no problem with your club doing whatever the shooters there want them to do but in my opinion ALL sanctioned clubs should play by the rules.

The rules allow clubs to decide things like this at a local level. That's why ROI says:

 

"SASS matches above the club level are ―no alibi‖ matches. Once the first round goes down range, the competitor is committed to the stage and must finish the stage to the best of his or her ability. Reshoots/restarts are not awarded for ammunition or firearm malfunctions. However, if there is a range failure (failure of props, timer, or the range officers) beyond the competitor’s control, a restart may be granted. On a reshoot/restart, the competitor starts over clean, carrying only accrued safety penalties forward. At all SASS annual club, state, Regional, National, and World Championship matches, no reshoots/restarts will be given after the first shot goes down range as determined by the Chief Range Officer and the Match Director, except for:"

 

So it's within the rules for SASS clubs to decide whether they are alibi or no alibi matches at the monthly level.

 

I happen to think that's a very smart position for SASS to take.

[Utah Bob #35998]

After the first round. I would proceed to the unloading table.

[Smokestack SASS#87384]

The rules allow clubs to decide things like this at a local level. That's why ROI says:

 

"SASS matches above the club level are ―no alibi‖ matches. Once the first round goes down range, the competitor is committed to the stage and must finish the stage to the best of his or her ability. Reshoots/restarts are not awarded for ammunition or firearm malfunctions. However, if there is a range failure (failure of props, timer, or the range officers) beyond the competitor’s control, a restart may be granted. On a reshoot/restart, the competitor starts over clean, carrying only accrued safety penalties forward. At all SASS annual club, state, Regional, National, and World Championship matches, no reshoots/restarts will be given after the first shot goes down range as determined by the Chief Range Officer and the Match Director, except for:"

 

So it's within the rules for SASS clubs to decide whether they are alibi or no alibi matches at the monthly level.

 

I happen to think that's a very smart position for SASS to take.

Like I said, what your club chooses to do does not make much difference to me. I am curious though, since you consider shooting without hearing protection to be a safety issue, what penalty do you asses the shooter for beginning the stage that way and do you carry that safety penalty forward to the re shoot like SASS rules stipulate?

[Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933]

The rules allow clubs to decide things like this at a local level. That's why ROI says:

 

"SASS matches above the club level are ―no alibi‖ matches. Once the first round goes down range, the competitor is committed to the stage and must finish the stage to the best of his or her ability. Reshoots/restarts are not awarded for ammunition or firearm malfunctions. However, if there is a range failure (failure of props, timer, or the range officers) beyond the competitor’s control, a restart may be granted. On a reshoot/restart, the competitor starts over clean, carrying only accrued safety penalties forward. At all SASS annual club, state, Regional, National, and World Championship matches, no reshoots/restarts will be given after the first shot goes down range as determined by the Chief Range Officer and the Match Director, except for:"

 

So it's within the rules for SASS clubs to decide whether they are alibi or no alibi matches at the monthly level.

 

I happen to think that's a very smart position for SASS to take.

Ahh the famous clubs can't violate the "rules" because there is a rule saying they can violate the rules. Not really a "smart" position for SASS to take but rather the simple reality that there is no way SASS can control what four guys shooting in the snow in Montana will or will not do. NOT following the rules at the local level because of the clubs can do whatever they want rule is fine. The problem is when these shooters go other matches and then give the almost universal "well that's not the way we do it at our club" excuse when the actual rules are applied. The smart thing is to apply the "rules" all the time.

[Captain Bill Burt]

Like I said, what your club chooses to do does not make much difference to me. I am curious though, since you consider shooting without hearing protection to be a safety issue, what penalty do you asses the shooter for beginning the stage that way and do you carry that safety penalty forward to the re shoot like SASS rules stipulate?

Let me preface this by saying I'm not in any way trying to be argumentative or disrespectful, just exploring the implication of a question that's new to me.

 

I don't think we penalize shooters for things like sweeping themselves so I would view this similarly. Since I've seen this once in the last five years I would lean towards a reshoot with any safety penalties carried forward. If as a result this became more frequent I would likely have to reconsider. If a particular shooter had multiple occurrences they would be required to remedy the problem on the clock. I don't see that happening around here though, word would get around.

[Smokestack SASS#87384]

Let me preface this by saying I'm not in any way trying to be argumentative or disrespectful, just exploring the implication of a question that's new to me.

 

I don't think we penalize shooters for things like sweeping themselves so I would view this similarly. Since I've seen this once in the last five years I would lean towards a reshoot with any safety penalties carried forward. If as a result this became more frequent I would likely have to reconsider. If a particular shooter had multiple occurrences they would be required to remedy the problem on the clock. I don't see that happening around here though, word would get around.

Fair enough, I mean no disrespect either, I am only trying to gain understanding of other people's perspectives. It would be nice if someone from the ROC would chime in as to whether or not this would be grounds for a re shoot at the sanctioned level.

[Captain Bill Burt]

Ahh the famous clubs can't violate the "rules" because there is a rule saying they can violate the rules. Not really a "smart" position for SASS to take but rather the simple reality that there is no way SASS can control what four guys shooting in the snow in Montana will or will not do. NOT following the rules at the local level because of the clubs can do whatever they want rule is fine. The problem is when these shooters go other matches and then give the almost universal "well that's not the way we do it at our club" excuse when the actual rules are applied. The smart thing is to apply the "rules" all the time.

It's hard to have a productive discussion with someone who deliberately distorts your position. I never quoted 'a rule that says you can violate the rules.' I accurately quoted a rule that says club level matches don't have to be no alibi matches.

 

Do you dispute that the handbook allows that?

 

I would be happy to discuss that rule and its implications for the OP subject. If you're merely looking to attack the premise of the thread, as I've seen you do often here in the past, I've got better things to do.

[Matthew Duncan]

I guess we will be checking the shooters for proper application of Sun Block pretty soon. Could be a safety issue.

+1

 

Political affiation too!

[Captain Bill Burt]

Fair enough, I mean no disrespect either, I am only trying to gain understanding of other people's perspectives. It would be nice if someone from the ROC would chime in as to whether or not this would be grounds for a re shoot at the sanctioned level.

My guess would be no. I don't think it would be appropriate above the monthly level under SASS rules.

[Yul Lose]

I guess we will be checking the shooters for proper application of Sun Block pretty soon. Could be a safety issue.

The MD might want to start checking to see if the shooter is of the proper gender, if you know what I mean. We wouldn't want men shooting in women's categories and visa versa. The transgender thing might present an interesting predicament should you see one of your pards come out of the ladies porta potty.

[Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933]

It's hard to have a productive discussion with someone who deliberately distorts your position. I never quoted 'a rule that says you can violate the rules.' I accurately quoted a rule that says club level matches don't have to be no alibi matches.

 

Do you dispute that the handbook allows that?

 

I would be happy to discuss that rule and its implications for the OP subject. If you're merely looking to attack the premise of the thread, as I've seen you do often here in the past, I've got better things to do.

The whole point is that there is a rule saying local clubs can allow things that are different than in the printed rule book. The "clubs can do what they want" rule is simply a euphemism for the sections of the handbook you are referring to. This has been discussed MANY times and the position that clubs should follow the main body of rules and not their own special rules is not an unusal position. I have been on the SASS wire since 2000 and have attended shoots from coast to coast. I have also been a match director and worked/work on several large shoots. I cannot tell you how many times I have been involved in the "well its allowed at my club" discussions. After years of discussing some of the same issues over and over I more and more freqently use the Socratic method and attempt to ask questions in order to get people to think about what they are saying. I am well aware of the implications for the OP subject. What local clubs allow and what the actual rules provide are not always the same. My point is and remains it is bad policy to teach someone a game and not enforce the "rules." I have never been accused of attacking the premise of a thread "as I've seen you do often in the past." If that's what you think then all I can say is THANKYOU. At least I know someone is reading some threads and trying to learn something.

[McCandless]

Has this ever happened? (Giving a reshoot because the shooter forgot their ear protection?) Just wondering.

I personally have never seen it. In fact, I've never seen shooters on a posse without ear protection. It hurts too much.

 

Of course, just because I've never seen it doesn't mean it never happens... just have never come across it.

 

Personally, I accidentally yanked out my earplug while shooting my shotgun, (next to last shot), I fired off the last shot anyway... wouldn't want to do that for a whole stage!! If it had happened earlier, would have taken the time to stick it back in!

 

A shooter coming to the line without eye or ear protection, I'd send him back to get them. But, most of the posse would probably already be yelling at them.

[Captain Bill Burt]

The whole point is that there is a rule saying local clubs can allow things that are different than in the printed rule book. The "clubs can do what they want" rule is simply a euphemism for the sections of the handbook you are referring to. This has been discussed MANY times and the position that clubs should follow the main body of rules and not their own special rules is not an unusal position. I have been on the SASS wire since 2000 and have attended shoots from coast to coast. I have also been a match director and worked/work on several large shoots. I cannot tell you how many times I have been involved in the "well its allowed at my club" discussions. After years of discussing some of the same issues over and over I more and more freqently use the Socratic method and attempt to ask questions in order to get people to think about what they are saying. I am well aware of the implications for the OP subject. What local clubs allow and what the actual rules provide are not always the same. My point is and remains it is bad policy to teach someone a game and not enforce the "rules." I have never been accused of attacking the premise of a thread "as I've seen you do often in the past." If that's what you think then all I can say is THANKYOU. At least I know someone is reading some threads and trying to learn something.

I read a lot of your posts, most are quite informative, as are your articles in the Chronicle. You do occasionally jump on folks for posting things you aren't interested in. In those cases your posts are nonresponsive at best.

 

In this case your response isn't logical. First, you refer to the sections I'm quoting. I quoted only one section. Secondly you acknowledge that the current rules allow club level matches to deviate from the no alibi rule, yet you then go on to say that clubs that in accordance with that rule, don't enforce no alibi at the club level aren't following the rules. That makes no sense, and someone who writes as well as you do should be able to see that. Either the ROI allows matches at the club level to be shot that way or it doesn't. If it does (which IMHO is a fact) then clubs who do it are following the rules for club level matches. The existence of that exception clearly implies that some variance at the club level is accepted. You may think that's inappropriate, but you should acknowledge that currently it's officially within the rules and allowed.

 

And yes, I'm reading and trying to learn, always.

[Kid Rich]

Personally, I accidentally yanked out my earplug while shooting my shotgun, (next to last shot), I fired off the last shot anyway... wouldn't want to do that for a whole stage!! If it had happened earlier, would have taken the time to stick it back in!

 

A shooter coming to the line without eye or ear protection, I'd send him back to get them. But, most of the posse would probably already be yelling at them.

I did that once on the 3rd shot with my rifle I slowed momentarily and then finished the stage. That will not happen again the last seven shots were 45 Colt full load BP. If I had stopped I would not have expected a reshoot. kR

[Casey Green]

Has this ever happened? (Giving a reshoot because the shooter forgot their ear protection?) Just wondering.

I personally have never seen it. In fact, I've never seen shooters on a posse without ear protection. It hurts too much.

 

Of course, just because I've never seen it doesn't mean it never happens... just have never come across it.

 

Personally, I accidentally yanked out my earplug while shooting my shotgun, (next to last shot), I fired off the last shot anyway... wouldn't want to do that for a whole stage!! If it had happened earlier, would have taken the time to stick it back in!

 

A shooter coming to the line without eye or ear protection, I'd send him back to get them. But, most of the posse would probably already be yelling at them.

I was spotting for the first 4-5 shooters of each stage a couple months ago and forgot to put my ears in after listening to instructions on a stage. After the first shot went downrange I remembered to put them back in .

[Sagebrush Burns, SASS # 14226]

Dammitol! I've misplaced my laser device for splitting hairs.

[Cheyenne Ranger, 48747L]

We'd take the offender and hang him from the nearest tree! (realizing the nearest tree is 5ft high and 3 inch in diameter)

[Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217]

Hello,

 

The OP asked an honest question. There is no call for insults and sarcasm. You may think you're funny. Someone who tried to have a serious conversation, by expressing views that differ from others, there were several, may not be amused.

 

If you didn't know, the Wire doesn't have a very warm and fuzzy reputation. This is the kind of thing caused it.

 

Please, try to keep your tone helpful.

 

Thank you,

 

Allie

[Straight Arrow Hombre]

There is always room for sarcasm. Personal insults, no.

[Bones Z]

it's hard to fight ignorance... sigh

 

Yes it is. Some folks insist on their opinions despite not having evidence to support them.

 

Still cannot find the rule that says when I make a mistake it get a reshoot.

[Bones Z]

Reckon I'm having a hard time with this one..

I've read all your posts...

I've saw your reasoning..

Myself...

It falls in the realm of shooters equipment,preparedness and readiness..

 

Shooter comes to the line..

Has a squib on his 3rd round..

"Cease fire" no reshoot..

Shooters (reloaders) error..

 

Same with ear plugs.. Shooters error.. No reshoot.. But..

I Would allow them to fix the error ON THE CLOCK..

 

Rance

Thinkin' they own the stage..

 

Yep.