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Lots of explanation marks there PP. Maybe it's difficult plastic wads. Maybe it's the smoothness of the bores. Could have been the high humidity. But I had no buildup goo of any kind. Just a tinge of black soot. I just ran enough water through the bores to dampen the soot. No soap, no vinegar, no Simple Green, no WD40.

 

Same with the rifle. A little water and bore snake.

 

I shot 100 shots through my two Cattleman 45s loaded with BlackMZ over two days and did nothing to them until I got home. I swear they were cleaner than when I shoot my Unique loads. I did water them down and then dry them out and give them a coat of Bore Butter.

 

We'll be shooting 6 stage match Saturday. I'll shoot the whole match without cleaning and see what comes out.

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Lots of explanation marks there PP. Maybe it's difficult plastic wads. Maybe it's the smoothness of the bores. Could have been the high humidity. But I had no buildup goo of any kind. Just a tinge of black soot. I just ran enough water through the bores to dampen the soot. No soap, no vinegar, no Simple Green, no WD40.

 

Same with the rifle. A little water and bore snake.

 

I shot 100 shots through my two Cattleman 45s loaded with BlackMZ over two days and did nothing to them until I got home. I swear they were cleaner than when I shoot my Unique loads. I did water them down and then dry them out and give them a coat of Bore Butter.

 

We'll be shooting 6 stage match Saturday. I'll shoot the whole match without cleaning and see what comes out.

You will be fine! I've done a 2 day 10 stage match without doing a thing till after I goy home! My '51 Navy's get a bit stiff after 5 stages in the rotation, but just a dry wipe on the cylinder face, and all good again!

 

Another thing, Black MZ, is FFFg but nowhere on the bottle says that! I use APP or Shocky Gold which is a premium APP in FFFg for cartridges, and FFg in the brass shotshells. However I've used FFFg in the shotshells, and couldn't tell the difference! The only reason I don't use Black MZ, is price! Normally its a couple bucks more then APP!

 

Have a good shoot this weekend! And keep yer powder dry!

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A question on loading using the RCBS cowboy dies - when you roll in the top rim, does that roll or crimp blow out when fired?

 

I like the brass hulls. They fall out easily from the chambers. But my loads with straight hulls are a pain to load. A little roll would make loading much smoother.

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A question on loading using the RCBS cowboy dies - when you roll in the top rim, does that roll or crimp blow out when fired?

 

I like the brass hulls. They fall out easily from the chambers. But my loads with straight hulls are a pain to load. A little roll would make loading much smoother.

Warden,

If no one else replies, I should have an answer for you this afternoon. All of my wads, cards, brass cases and the RCBS die finally arrived yesterday and I loaded up a handful of shells using 3.4cc Blackmz. This afternoon I plan on going out and firing them at some large cardboard pieces to see what kind of pattern they are throwing. The die does an excellent job of putting a slight roll on the cases and the rolled edge makes dropping the shells in the barrels much easier than the straight walls.

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I too am going to start shooting brass shells. My Lee Load All will work fine for powder,wads, and shot. But I need to find a way to roll crimp the brass. I know RCBS has there unit for 60 plus dollars but all I need is the roll crimp. Any ideas on a cheaper method?

 

Thanks Deacon Stone

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Deacon,

 

We are thinking alike. I hope to get the same answer.

 

:)

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Shot a bunch of Majors this week at Chapmon and they fell out with no problems and they are easy to load. Would like to just find a way to roll the mouth of the case. Need a machinist to turn a couple for use that would fave a spindle built in that could be chucked up on a drill press or in a hand drill?

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Looks like everyone is heading down similar paths at the same time. Here is how I chose to load my brass cases, no agenda, just sharing thoughts!

 

I chose not to use my Lee Load All for several reasons;

1. The primer setup is for 209 shotgun primers and the Magtech brass comes with large rifle primer pockets which would have to be modified and resized to accept shotgun primers - not worth the hassle!

2. The primer pocket in the brass case is a raised dimple meaning you had better be 100% centered with the Load All knockout punch, moving the case around to find the primer won't work well.

3. I use Alliant Blackmz powder and use more powder than I can get into the largest Load All bushings.

4. When you insert a brass case in the Load All, you have to stack a few washers under it so it will raise up into the "plastic fingers" since it's a lot shorter than the plastic hulls.

 

All in all, since I already had an old Hornady single stage press not doing anything, I decided to buy the RCBS die and not have to fool with any modifications, jury rigging, etc. The die screws nicely into the press ("standard" press 1 1/4 - 12 threads). The depriming pin centers nicely in the brass case, has a resizing ring, 12g shell plate for the press ram and of course the crimping insert that works like a charm.

 

I'm glad I bought the die since it's more than just a crimper, I use it in the single stage press for all operations, soon the money I spent on it will be forgotten as I enjoy using the press without all the jury rigging. Here is a shot of the press with a Magtech brass hull in place, it's already been resized and the primer is being seated next.

 

rcbs-die.jpg

 

This photo shows a before and after photo of the RCBS crimp, look closely to the case on the right because the crimp isn't that deep. All I wanted was just enough of a rolled edge to make dropping shells in easier.

 

before-after-crimp.jpg

 

 

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Will the RCBS 12 ga. Brass reloading die re-size the 12 ga. brass case ? The info states it will roll crimp, no mention of resizing.

Yes, die set #99060 has a resizing ring which threads into the bottom of the die. Keep in mind that the die has 1 1/4-12 threads which is pretty common among different brands of presses

Edited by Deadeye George
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I used the fiber wads originally, but have switched to the red shotgun wads. Pattern keeps tighter that way I think.

I loaded some shells today - powder- 11g nitro card - half of a 11g 1/2" cushion wad - short red CB 1138 wads - shot - 10g over shot card

 

Everything went together fine but the plastic wad was a bit loose in the case, did you experience the same thing or think it really matters or do they make the wad in 11g perhaps?

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20160608_180607_zpsipv9hjur.jpg

 

The TO at the match last weekend commented that my CZ-USA hammer coachgun was shooting about a 4" pattern. My Magtech hulls were loaded with 10 gauge plastic wads.

 

This evening I shot a target with 10 gauge plastic wad loads and another with 12 gauge 1/2" wads. The powder charge and shot weight were the same. The distance was 12 steps and fired from the right barrel of the CZ-USA.

 

I marked the shot holes with a Sharpe to make them easier to see.

Edited by Warden Callaway
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20160608_180607_zpsipv9hjur.jpg

 

The TO at the match last weekend commented that my CZ-USA hammer coachgun was shooting about a 4" pattern. My Magtech hulls were loaded with 10 gauge plastic wads.

 

This evening I shot a target with 10 gauge plastic wad loads and another with 12 gauge 1/2" wads. The powder charge and shot weight were the same. The distance was 12 steps and fired from the right barrel of the CZ-USA.

 

I marked the shot holes with a Sharpe to make them easier to see.

Boy the 1/2 wads really leave a hole in the pattern hey pard!? That is what my experience with them was also.

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Warden, have you tried 12g plastic hulls yet? They seem to fit a bit loose but since they aren't being compressed I think it might not matter. I loaded some up and headed out to the country today to see what kind of patterns they were creating and all went well until I looked around for my cardboard targets. Someone forgot to bring them so I just shot the rounds to get an idea between the three powder loads I was trying. I didn't notice any differences in recoil worth noting so will probably go with the middle load and save some powder. I measured the hull diameters at the top edge and the average was .794" and after crimping measured an average of .782" so the crimp reduced the diameter by approximately .012". I just measured the cases that I fired today and the crimp didn't budge at all which is a good thing meaning the brass won't start having problems from being worked so much. I could probably increase the crimp but since they are rolling into the barrels easily now, why create a stressful situation for the brass.

 

And....... I deprimed the cases I just fired with the RCBS depriming pin and it worked fine for the first 8 cases then SNAP...POP, the e-clips holding the depriming pen assembly together gave way so I manually deprimed the rest of the cases........... I might as well have used a claw hammer and a nail to begin with!

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Warden, have you tried 12g plastic hulls yet? They seem to fit a bit loose but since they aren't being compressed I think it might not matter.

You mean 12 gauge plastic cup wads in brass hulls? No, I started to use the Claybuster pink wad but it was so loose that I decided to try the 10 gauge as I had them. Perfect slip fit. The recovered 10 gauge plastic wads show little damage other than an occasional petal missing.

 

I have a ultra high tech decaping tool I'll post a picture of tomorrow.

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You mean 12 gauge plastic cup wads in brass hulls? No, I started to use the Claybuster pink wad but it was so loose that I decided to try the 10 gauge as I had them. Perfect slip fit. The recovered 10 gauge plastic wads show little damage other than an occasional petal missing.

 

I have a ultra high tech decaping tool I'll post a picture of tomorrow.

Yep, my new brass shells. I have several 12gauge wads and some are tighter than others, So far I found that the salmon colored CB1100 wad is fairly snug and with the powder charge I use along with the 1 oz of shot, the case is filled to within 3/16" from the brim. If the 10 gauge wads fit snugger, once I find a wad I like < imay see if I can find it in 10 gauge since it sounds like you are having good luck with yours.

 

I'll be returning my ultra high tech decapper tomorrow! :o Usually I try to find a work around or fix minor problems but when companies continue to sell products they know are defective, they no longer earn my business.

Edited by Deadeye George
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20160609_063944_zpslxk7wpff.jpg

 

Here is my miracle tool to punch primers out of brass hulls. It's the base part of the 10 gauge wads I've been using and a Lee punch. I have a lathe to drill a hole slightly smaller in the center and force the punch through. But you could push a wad to bottom of a deprimed hull and use a small drill to drill a hole in the center that would be used to guide for bigger drill. A hammer and a big hexnut finish out the kit. Works perfect.

 

 

There are many videos on loading brass hulls. But I made yet another. It is long winded for those already loading shot shells but I made it for a general audience. Obviously, everyone does it different and still get good results. Maybe you'll find something of interest.

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A question on loading using the RCBS cowboy dies - when you roll in the top rim, does that roll or crimp blow out when fired?

 

I like the brass hulls. They fall out easily from the chambers. But my loads with straight hulls are a pain to load. A little roll would make loading much smoother.

It blows out a bit! I crimp them a lot more then stated in an above post, but I use a pair of needle nose pliers and give the hull a few twists around the closed pliers! Not enough to make a flair just to straighten out the mouth! I have to admit, my pattern is the same with the 1/2" fiber wad, as with the BP10 wad! However, like in my video way back on page one or two, I drop 60 grains of APP through my Size-Master MEC, nitro card, wad and 1 1/8oz of shot! So, it leaves about a 1/2" void above the overshot card and glue it down with DUCO or now Super Seal! Its twice as much glue for the same price as DUCO! My UMC brass is a bit longer, so when I crimp it, I have to stop short or it will choke the shell down to an extra full turkey choke size!

 

I did see a neat modification to the shells! I haven't done it, but might. Fill a de-primed shell with a 1/4" of lead (molten) and after its cooled, drill out the flash hole and primer pocket, thus adding an extra bit of weight to chuck spent hulls from the barrels! It may be a time to drill out the pocket to accept 209's and increase the flash from the primer!

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I do not roll crimp my cases but once, on the initial case prep when they are new. If your roll is excessive you will not be able to get wads in the case. If my 3/4" wooden dowel will fit in the case mouth then wads will be able to be inserted side ways and seated in the case.

My roll on the case mouth lasts a long time, I do not charge a 70-80 gr. in the cases. For our sport it is not necessary.

 

My 12 ga. plastic wads wiggle in the case also. For my purpose this wad is used for a shot carrier and does not need to be compressed. My 1/2" cushion on top of the powder.. serves this purpose, and is compressed.

 

This is a good thread, much info here. I wished it was here 8 years ago when I started my research on the Black art of loading Brass shells.

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I do not roll crimp my cases but once, on the initial case prep when they are new. If your roll is excessive you will not be able to get wads in the case. If my 3/4" wooden dowel will fit in the case mouth then wads will be able to be inserted side ways and seated in the case.

My roll on the case mouth lasts a long time, I do not charge a 70-80 gr. in the cases. For our sport it is not necessary.

 

My 12 ga. plastic wads wiggle in the case also. For my purpose this wad is used for a shot carrier and does not need to be compressed. My 1/2" cushion on top of the powder.. serves this purpose, and is compressed.

 

This is a good thread, much info here. I wished it was here 8 years ago when I started my research on the Black art of loading Brass shells.

It's a good thread because there are several of you seasoned shooters lending your advice and saying... "here is what I do and why I do it" rather than the all so typical..." you should do it my way because it's the only way". A perfect example of great information sharing is the wad sizes used, who would have thought to use 10 and 11 gauge wads in a 12 gauge case? If not for ya'll, I'd be sitting here with bags of 12 gauge wads that I couldn't use.

 

I am pretty sure that the other rookies think the same way i do, We Appreciate it and thank you! It is nice to work on some loads, go out and shoot then come here and see where others are doing almost the exact same thing, but it's the little differences that make trying different things a pleasure.

 

And speaking of different things.... Ever since I switched over to the BlackMz powder, a friend suggested a good load for use with my plastic shells that used the short red wad (CB1138) but since the wad was not filling the case with 1 0z of shot he suggested putting a 20 gauge nitro card inside the plastic shot cup which raised the overall level to afford a perfect 8 point crimp. This morning I loaded a few shells with the brass case using a Lee 3.4cc dipper for powder then the salmon colored CB1100 plastic wad with the 20 gauge nitro card inserted then 1 oz of shot with an over shot card to top it off. The result was a nice tight load, length wise, which when crimped had approximately 3/16" of space to the case rim.

Edited by Deadeye George
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I started loading my 16 ga." Hammer Double" modified Magtech shells with 209 primers & Unique powder as my first experience with all brass shells. This was quite an adventure. I have been loading plastics for the past 35 years.

 

But oh my, what a challenge with the brass shells. No information or recipes and such.

 

Black Powder is a snap, compared to the Smokeless adventure.

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It is good to see more Cowboys are experminting and using the Brass Shells. For a Black Powder shooter, it is the right way to go. Plastic shells have a short life span using Black or Subs. Brass Shells, are for a very long time.

 

Even if I am shooting Smokeless in my Rifle & Revolvers, i use the BP loaded Brass Shells in my Shot Guns.

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Well let's see, it's been a week since I got my supplies in so what have I learned from my first week of loading..........

 

1. I can load brass shells that put nice patterns in cardboard targets without worrying about the exact length of the load and whether it will create a nice 8 point crimp or not as with the plastic hulls. And, that pushing a 1 oz load of shot with a 3.1cc charge of powder will do just as nice a job at 8 yards as using a 3.4cc charge of powder so why on earth was I using so much more powder for the past few hundred loads!

 

2. Based on my limited exposure so far I believe using plastic wads is actually more effective than using nitro cards and fiber cushion wads at least as far as producing nice patterns without voids in the center so I'll probably set those fiber cushion wads aside for the time being.

 

3. I found that the crimps I applied to the brand new cases the first loading has stayed unchanged for three reloadings now so crimping may be a one time task just like deburring and smoothing the rims of the brand new cases. Magtech brass is not Starline quality, the rim edges are pretty ragged from the factory.

 

4. Cleaning new brass with Acetone removes all manufacturing solvent and oil residues, a must if you plan on having any glue adhere to the cases. You can also find all sorts of tiny brass debris in the cases.

 

5. It DOES matter what type of glue you use to affix the overshot cards. Not having Elmers brand glue handy, I tried some Tightbond and Gorilla wood glues and both left a buildup after firing that needed to be scraped out of the case. Hot glue didn't fare any better and my little town has no Duco cement so my wife gave me some "white" craft glue she bought at a fabric store and it works, bonding well enough to the brass that I have a secure feeling that the shells aren't going to spill out all over the ground when moving from stage to stage in a match and there is nothing to clean out of the brass cases.

 

6. Hand loading cases then gluing in cards is so much more enjoyable than sitting in front of a press and seeing how many shells you can produce by cranking on a handle for an hour, plus the shells look much nicer.

Edited by Deadeye George
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Well let's see, it's been a week since I got my supplies in so what have I learned from my first week of loading..........

 

1. I can load brass shells that put nice patterns in cardboard targets without worrying about the exact length of the load and whether it will create a nice 8 point crimp or not as with the plastic hulls. And, that pushing a 1 oz load of shot with a 3.1cc charge of powder will do just as nice a job at 8 yards as using a 3.4cc charge of powder so why on earth was I using so much more powder for the past few hundred loads!

 

2. Based on my limited exposure so far I believe using plastic wads is actually more effective than using nitro cards and fiber cushion wads at least as far as producing nice patterns without voids in the center so I'll probably set those fiber cushion wads aside for the time being.

 

3. I found that the crimps I applied to the brand new cases the first loading has stayed unchanged for three reloadings now so crimping may be a one time task just like deburring and smoothing the rims of the brand new cases. Magtech brass is not Starline quality, the rim edges are pretty ragged from the factory.

 

4. Cleaning new brass with Acetone removes all manufacturing solvent and oil residues, a must if you plan on having any glue adhere to the cases. You can also find all sorts of tiny brass debris in the cases.

 

5. It DOES matter what type of glue you use to affix the overshot cards. Not having Elmers brand glue handy, I tried some Tightbond and Gorilla wood glues and both left a buildup after firing that needed to be scraped out of the case. Hot glue didn't fare any better and my little town has no Duco cement so my wife gave me some "white" craft glue she bought at a fabric store and it works, bonding well enough to the brass that I have a secure feeling that the shells aren't going to spill out all over the ground when moving from stage to stage in a match and there is nothing to clean out of the brass cases.

 

6. Hand loading cases then gluing in cards is so much more enjoyable than sitting in front of a press and seeing how many shells you can produce by cranking on a handle for an hour, plus the shells look much nicer.

 

 

Now your are a Master, Welcome to the Club ! BTW; 3.1CC is the magic amount for me also. I buy Elmer's Glue by the Gallon jug, cheaper that way. Then transfer it to the squeeze bottles for handier use.

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When you shoot (cough, choke, gasp) plastic shot shells, there is no "Snap" no "Pazzaz" no "Wow Factor" no ........ "STYLE." ALL BRASS on the other hand are UBER KOOL!! Lots of Oooo's and Ahaaaaaas. And my powder stained brass shells just have that

"aura" about em.

 

Real Cowboys shoot ALL BRASS shot shells. Mere Mortals are relegated to ...... (barf) plastic.

 

Coffinmaker

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Pay close attention to your wad & card sizes and you will have a more harmonious outcome. Have fun ! I don't think anybody else mentioned it here, but advise the RO that youre shooting brass so he doesn't step on your cases !

 

El Q Jones

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Pay close attention to your wad & card sizes and you will have a more harmonious outcome. Have fun ! I don't think anybody else mentioned it here, but advise the RO that youre shooting brass so he doesn't step on your cases !

El Q Jones

So far, so good. Shot another match today and no one yet has stepped on a hull.

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Pay close attention to your wad & card sizes and you will have a more harmonious outcome. Have fun ! I don't think anybody else mentioned it here, but advise the RO that youre shooting brass so he doesn't step on your cases !

 

El Q Jones

 

Could you elaborate a little on that? Do you have some combinations that you have tried that provide better shot patterns or certain wads working better than others? Don't be bashful, let us hear your thoughts and ideas, all we're doing is helping each other out!

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In the heat of the stage, I am the one who has stepped on my own brass shells. It has happened twice, and the RO has caught me each time.

When I do get a bent up case, they can be brought back to life.

I have a four inch 3/4" steel mandrel. I place it with the end in a vise. Then the case goes over the mandrel. With my plastic mallet I tap the case around the mandrel and straighten out the folds dents and such. If the case is really deformed, I load up a max load of Black powder, an OPC, & two compression/cushion wads. This fire forms the case to the chamber. This will bring back a mangled case from the scrap box.

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Will the RCBS 12 ga. Brass reloading die re-size the 12 ga. brass case ? The info states it will roll crimp, no mention of resizing.

I used Magtec 12 ga brass hulls years ago, with RCBS die set for reloading.

 

Stopped when the hull casualty rate (out of shape) could not be corrected with the resizing die. Mouth of casualty hulls (out of round) were not touched by die even when the hull would not chamber.

 

Wish I had known about CH4D dies set, I would have stayed with the brass hulls.

Great style points and no hang ups when shucking.

 

Amarillo Rattler

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Deadeye-

For shooting real black or pyrodex, I just start with a "square" load, then pattern it. Something about seeing those flaming wads puts a smile on my face.

 

The subs are harder to get good results with. When I use APP or 777 type powder, I use less powder to avoid getting a hole in the pattern.

 

I've had great results with the circle fly wads.

 

For Magtech brass I use 10 gauge wads.

For RMC or original brass, I use 11 ga overpowder and shot wads, then 10 ga overshot. Use the tightest wads you can get in the case.

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I know about the CH4D Dies. Buffalo Arms has them in the catalog & on line store. Very pricey but excellent product. I may just buy the crimp die only. IIRC; they sell the various dies separately. The full set is close to $200.00.

 

The sizing ring is good for the case base only, will not resize the case properly. The CH4D sizing die is slightly tapered, I believe.

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I have a neighbor that is a trained machinest and just bought a used big lathe and milling machine. Maybe I can trade him services to make me a full length sizing die. Nothing fancy, a hole tapered and polished in a chunk of pipe. I can lube the hull up, drive it in and drive it back out. Low-tech, red-neck.

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