Cypress Sam, SASS #10915 Posted April 27, 2016 Share Posted April 27, 2016 An experienced shooter drops a loaded cocked pistol which falls pointed directly up range at the crowd. He stops and takes his match DQ. What is the correct procedure for the TO to safely handle the gun from here? The TO picked up the gun and swung it around parallel to the ground but in doing so swept half the crowds feet. He then took it to the unloading table while still cocked and cleared it without incident. It seems to me that a safer way to handle it would have been to pick the gun up with your thumb between the hammer and frame, immediately swinging the barrel down and pointing down range. Then lower the hammer and unload before going to the unloading table. (Don't shoot it because the barrel might be full of dirt.) What would an official ruling be? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L Posted April 27, 2016 Share Posted April 27, 2016 MDQ for sweeping others with a loaded firearm. It should have been handled in a manner such as you suggested...or any way that would have avoided sweeping anyone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cypress Sam, SASS #10915 Posted April 27, 2016 Author Share Posted April 27, 2016 PaleWolf, The shooter already got a MDQ. Should the TO also get a MDQ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cowboy Rick, SASS #49739L Posted April 27, 2016 Share Posted April 27, 2016 PaleWolf, The shooter already got a MDQ. Should the TO also get a MDQ? Seems to me whoever points a loaded gun in the wrong direction gets a MDQ CR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jefro, SASS#69420 Posted April 27, 2016 Share Posted April 27, 2016 Wow!! that's one way to get two MDQ on the same stage J R-E Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L Posted April 27, 2016 Share Posted April 27, 2016 PaleWolf, The shooter already got a MDQ. Should the TO also get a MDQ? YES...T/O committed the violation, T/O gets the penalty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Assassin Posted April 27, 2016 Share Posted April 27, 2016 Hand off the timer and let someone else deal with it, or ask the crowd to move and take safe possession of the hand gun, point it downrange and slowly lower the hammer. When people decide they want to be a TO do they realize the level of responsibility involved? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shooting Bull Posted April 27, 2016 Share Posted April 27, 2016 When people decide they want to be a TO do they realize the level of responsibility involved? Nope. If they did they surely wouldn't make that decision. Being a T.O. is a horrible HORRIBLE job from which there is no recovery. But it has to be done so those of us who are already brain dead (and didn't learn our lesson when employed by the Department of Defense) volunteer to do it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grizzly Dave Posted April 27, 2016 Share Posted April 27, 2016 When I took my RO 2 class, we did the normal class room session and took the test to demonstrate that we knew the books, but then we went out to the range. The instructor then put us through several 'stages from hell' with him as the shooter using blue guns, and each of us taking turns with the timer. He would mix up his infractions for each of us as we ran the clock so we couldn't anticipate or predict what he was going to do. While that sort of exercise can't prepare you fully for everything that might happen, I think it does open your eyes to what could happen. At one point he swung the rifle towards me and I had to block the barrel up into the air as I snatched it away from him. I apologized and he laughed and told me that no, I'd done the right thing, a TO needs to do whatever he can and whatever is needed to keep himself and everyone else safe. I have been running the clock when a gun was dropped, thankfully it wasn't cocked. I held my free hand back towards the posse to keep a well meaning pard from moving in to pick up the pistol but also let them know I knew what had happened. I safely stopped the shooter, sent them to the unloading table and directed one specific person to retrieve the pistol and supervised as they did so safely and took it to the unloading table. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rance - SASS # 54090 Posted April 27, 2016 Share Posted April 27, 2016 YES...T/O committed the violation, T/O gets the penalty. Wow!! Never would have thought that one.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seldom Seen #16162 Posted April 27, 2016 Share Posted April 27, 2016 This sure has become a tough crowd. It must be a big club to start sending shooters home two at a time. Sounds like a good reason NOT to be a T.O. and to never touch another shooters guns regardless of circumstances. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Assassin Posted April 27, 2016 Share Posted April 27, 2016 There should be several folks on every posse that are paying attention to everything that's going on. Not just the TO, it's a group effort. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cowboy Rick, SASS #49739L Posted April 27, 2016 Share Posted April 27, 2016 This sure has become a tough crowd. It must be a big club to start sending shooters home two at a time. Sounds like a good reason NOT to be a T.O. and to never touch another shooters guns regardless of circumstances. Piece of cake. Picture this: There lies a cocked and loaded gun, pointing up range at the posse. Untouched, it is no more dangerous now or 5 minutes from now. Before you pick it up, consider what happens it it goes off. Clearing the folks from in front of it might be in order. Blocking the hammer with your thumb is a good idea. Picking it up so the muzzle immediately is straight down seems prudent. Pointing it down range and dropping the hammer slowly would make it safe to unload on the spot. Grabbing the gun and waiving it around places everyone in front of it in danger. Enough danger that, yes, you get sent home. No matter how small the club, the rules are the rules. CR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 Posted April 27, 2016 Share Posted April 27, 2016 +1 Every one is a safety officer, but the TO is in charge. Other folks on the posse should assist, as directed. I know I would be clearing posse folks and spectators from being in a "danger area" in front of the barrel, before the TO bent down to safely retrieve the gun. We all "know" the gun is not going to discharge, but it reassures everyone involved if we take extra action to remove even remote possibilities of injury in such a case. This is a chance to really show respect for everyone's safety on the bay. A thumb or finger between hammer and frame is sure the best way to grasp that revolver. You might even want to practice that move! Being a TO does not remove the requirements of safe gun handling. If you handle a gun as a TO (or other match safety officer), PAY ATTENTION - you are still "on the clock" just as if you are on the firing line shooting your own stage. Good luck, GJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hoss Posted April 27, 2016 Share Posted April 27, 2016 Like everybody, I know that safety first, second, last, always is job one in our game for the shooter, TO, spotters, brass pickers, posse members, cooks, bottle washers and Indian chiefs. That being said, it seems harsh to me to MDQ somebody for trying to rectify a situation that they did not make, while trying to fix the problem. Obviously, in this case, everybody should have stopped, taken a deep breath, and figured out the safest way to handle the situation. OP said TO swung it downrange, sweeping feet of posse. I'm sure he was being as careful as he could, and in hindsight, might have done it differently, but just seems unfair to MDQ him. I see the same problem with an expediter carrying a rifle from line to unloading table and trips and falls, dropping rifle. Should they be SDQed? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L Posted April 27, 2016 Share Posted April 27, 2016 Like everybody, I know that safety first, second, last, always is job one in our game for the shooter, TO, spotters, brass pickers, posse members, cooks, bottle washers and Indian chiefs. That being said, it seems harsh to me to MDQ somebody for trying to rectify a situation that they did not make, while trying to fix the problem. Obviously, in this case, everybody should have stopped, taken a deep breath, and figured out the safest way to handle the situation. OP said TO swung it downrange, sweeping feet of posse. I'm sure he was being as careful as he could, and in hindsight, might have done it differently, but just seems unfair to MDQ him. MAJOR SAFETY VIOLATION...not restricted to the shooter. Unsafe actions carry attached penalties. I see the same problem with an expediter carrying a rifle from line to unloading table and trips and falls, dropping rifle. Should they be SDQed? Drop MY rifle & see what happens. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L Posted April 27, 2016 Share Posted April 27, 2016 This sure has become a tough crowd. It must be a big club to start sending shooters home two at a time. Sounds like a good reason NOT to be a T.O. and to never touch another shooters guns regardless of circumstances. The size of the club has absolutely NOTHING to do with enforcement of the rules. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Bill Burt Posted April 27, 2016 Share Posted April 27, 2016 Will being shot hurt any less if the shooter is the TO and not the competitor? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hoss Posted April 27, 2016 Share Posted April 27, 2016 Like everybody, I know that safety first, second, last, always is job one in our game for the shooter, TO, spotters, brass pickers, posse members, cooks, bottle washers and Indian chiefs. That being said, it seems harsh to me to MDQ somebody for trying to rectify a situation that they did not make, while trying to fix the problem. Obviously, in this case, everybody should have stopped, taken a deep breath, and figured out the safest way to handle the situation. OP said TO swung it downrange, sweeping feet of posse. I'm sure he was being as careful as he could, and in hindsight, might have done it differently, but just seems unfair to MDQ him. MAJOR SAFETY VIOLATION...not restricted to the shooter. Unsafe actions carry attached penalties. I see the same problem with an expediter carrying a rifle from line to unloading table and trips and falls, dropping rifle. Should they be SDQed? Drop MY rifle & see what happens. I'm not disagreeing with what the rules say, I'm just thinking its a little harsh. But that's just my opinion, and put $4 with it and you can get one of those fancy cups of coffee at Starbucks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 Posted April 27, 2016 Share Posted April 27, 2016 What seems HARSH is to NOT award the penalty for a dropped gun when it occurs within the firing line "area". Doesn't matter who drops it. It's been dropped. "Well, your Honor, it was our Chief Range Safety Officer who dropped/mishandled the loaded gun that discharged. So, we don't penalize the range officers while they are doing their job." Statement sounds almost as out-of-touch on this screen as it would in a court room during a civil damage suit. I'm not disagreeing with what the rules say, I'm just thinking it's a little harsh. Good luck, GJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skinny tom Posted April 27, 2016 Share Posted April 27, 2016 Anyone that takes possession of that firearm has taken on a huge legal risk If the gun happens to fire and if anyone is injured bye bye to all that you own and waivers will not save you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buck D. Law, SASS #62183 Posted April 27, 2016 Share Posted April 27, 2016 There's more to being the TO than pushing a button and calling out the score. A dropped loaded gun and a poisonous snake get a lot of thought from me before I approach. "Let's see how we need to do this in order to insure nobody gets bit." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L Posted April 27, 2016 Share Posted April 27, 2016 well...heck! If y'all are goin' to bring in the lawyers, I guess I'll just turn in my timer and ROC badge and black pin & go plinkin' in the rock pit...won't even have to dress "cowboy" to do that. ...and won't need any ROs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Two Spurs Posted April 27, 2016 Share Posted April 27, 2016 This sure has become a tough crowd. It must be a big club to start sending shooters home two at a time. Sounds like a good reason NOT to be a T.O. and to never touch another shooters guns regardless of circumstances. If someone can't safely handle that gun in that situation they shouldn't be participating in CAS Anyone that takes possession of that firearm has taken on a huge legal risk If the gun happens to fire and if anyone is injured bye bye to all that you own and waivers will not save you. You are statistically a greater risk to people when you are driving, therefore you should sell your car and buy a bicycle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blastmaster Posted April 27, 2016 Share Posted April 27, 2016 If someone can't safely handle that gun in that situation they shouldn't be participating in CAS I understand your thought and it has alot of merit, but if your requirement was implemented, 90% of the CAS shooters would be eliminated. Scary, isn't it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Two Spurs Posted April 28, 2016 Share Posted April 28, 2016 I understand your thought and it has alot of merit, but if your requirement was implemented, 90% of the CAS shooters would be eliminated. Scary, isn't it? Thanks. I needed that... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rye Miles #13621 Posted April 28, 2016 Share Posted April 28, 2016 An experienced shooter drops a loaded cocked pistol which falls pointed directly up range at the crowd. He stops and takes his match DQ. What is the correct procedure for the TO to safely handle the gun from here? The TO picked up the gun and swung it around parallel to the ground but in doing so swept half the crowds feet. He then took it to the unloading table while still cocked and cleared it without incident. It seems to me that a safer way to handle it would have been to pick the gun up with your thumb between the hammer and frame, immediately swinging the barrel down and pointing down range. Then lower the hammer and unload before going to the unloading table. (Don't shoot it because the barrel might be full of dirt.) What would an official ruling be? Could he have swung the barrel around down range with his finger and then safely decocked the pistol? I can't see how that would have swept anyone. Although hindsight is 20-20 so in the heat of the moment anything can happen! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blastmaster Posted April 28, 2016 Share Posted April 28, 2016 Could he have swung the barrel around down range with his finger and then safely decocked the pistol? I can't see how that would have swept anyone. Although hindsight is 20-20 so in the heat of the moment anything can happen! Highly unlikely NO, unless other steps were taken before hand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rye Miles #13621 Posted April 28, 2016 Share Posted April 28, 2016 Highly unlikely NO, unless other steps were taken before hand. Why not??? Explain please! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ventura Slim, SASS #35690 Posted April 28, 2016 Share Posted April 28, 2016 2 MDQs, the shooter took the cowboy way, so give him a kind word. Pick up a hot pistol afterwards and sweeping the crowd. MDQ CS-Is this hypothetical? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blastmaster Posted April 28, 2016 Share Posted April 28, 2016 Why not??? Explain please! Before touching, You would have to get everyone that is momentarily downrange of the muzzle of the dropped & cocked pistol behind the dropped gun. Once everyone (posse members, people out in the parking lot and the like) was behind (momentarily uprange of the gun), then you could touch the gun, (put finger between hammer and frame) pivot gun or pickup, then as you turn with firearm to be pointed in the true downrange direction, so would everyone behind you, in unison. After getting the muzzle point there, then lower hammer, probably unload gun there so no live round under hammer.... geeesh, would the TO have to ask another TO permission to decock? LOL RYE, I presume the muzzle of the gun in the dirt is sweeping some posse members ankle, at the least. You, as the TO would have bought the MDQ the instant you touched the gun, which was sweeping someones ankle, but would be exempt from MDQ if you did the procedure above. Thats my thinking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rye Miles #13621 Posted April 28, 2016 Share Posted April 28, 2016 Before touching, You would have to get everyone that is momentarily downrange of the muzzle of the dropped & cocked pistol behind the dropped gun. Once everyone (posse members, people out in the parking lot and the like) was behind (momentarily uprange of the gun), then you could touch the gun, (put finger between hammer and frame) pivot gun or pickup, then as you turn with firearm to be pointed in the true downrange direction, so would everyone behind you, in unison. After getting the muzzle point there, then lower hammer, probably unload gun there so no live round under hammer.... geeesh, would the TO have to ask another TO permission to decock? LOL RYE, I presume the muzzle of the gun in the dirt is sweeping some posse members ankle, at the least. You, as the TO would have bought the MDQ the instant you touched the gun, which was sweeping someones ankle, but would be exempt from MDQ if you did the procedure above. Thats my thinking. It's already pointing up range and that goes to the shooter. The TO then approaches the gun and with his finger turns the barrel down range. At that point everyone is cleared, I still don't see the problem with that! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blastmaster Posted April 28, 2016 Share Posted April 28, 2016 It's already pointing up range and that goes to the shooter. The TO then approaches the gun and with his finger turns the barrel down range. At that point everyone is cleared, I still don't see the problem with that! Please reread post #2-#6. PWB has spoken. Unless you (TO) want a MDQ too. Edit: Of course, If 'everyone' is clear of muzzle, then you could do what you say w/o penalty Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cowboy Rick, SASS #49739L Posted April 28, 2016 Share Posted April 28, 2016 Before touching, You would have to get everyone that is momentarily downrange of the muzzle of the dropped & cocked pistol behind the dropped gun. Once everyone (posse members, people out in the parking lot and the like) was behind (momentarily uprange of the gun), then you could touch the gun, (put finger between hammer and frame) pivot gun or pickup, then as you turn with firearm to be pointed in the true downrange direction, so would everyone behind you, in unison. After getting the muzzle point there, then lower hammer, probably unload gun there so no live round under hammer.... geeesh, would the TO have to ask another TO permission to decock? LOL RYE, I presume the muzzle of the gun in the dirt is sweeping some posse members ankle, at the least. You, as the TO would have bought the MDQ the instant you touched the gun, which was sweeping someones ankle, but would be exempt from MDQ if you did the procedure above. Thats my thinking. Paranoia will distroya - TO is in charge. Apply a little common sense to the situation at hand and make sure nobody get swept with a loaded and cocked gun. Every situation like this will be somewhat different, so we can't set up a bunch of rules to cover them all. Safety is the key, the TO is in charge. CR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rye Miles #13621 Posted April 28, 2016 Share Posted April 28, 2016 Please reread post #2-#6. PWB has spoken. Unless you (TO) want a MDQ too. Edit: Of course, If 'everyone' is clear of muzzle, then you could do what you say w/o penalty Okay I must be dense or missing something! Everyone is ALREADY being swept by the gun on the ground right? OK….now if the TO goes downrange and turns the gun downrange why is it necessary to clear everyone? My guess is for safety reasons as the gun being turned might go off? I think that's highly unlikely but maybe so!??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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