Prince Fans

[Assassin]

Rick Derringer , Frampton, Joe Walsh, best bass Harry Nilsen (Jump Into The Fire)

[Boggus Deal #64218]

I'm not saying he was the greatest. Just that he was talented and others of renown thought he was, as well.

[Assassin]

I graduated from high school in 1977, maybe paid attention to newer music for a few years after. The disco era hit about that time and good music was all but lost. The music I listened to pretty much stopped around 81-82. I remember Prince around 83-84 and it seemed to be more for the pop crowd like Madonna, Cindi Lauper, and others that all sounded the same. There are buttons on the radio, if one does not like what is playing, just find another station. Everytime Rush comes on or any disco song I hit the button. When Elvis died in August of 77 I remember seeing women and probably a few men sitting in their cars weeping on the shoulder of the road, Have not seen anyone crying over Prince. It's a generational thing.

[Chantry]

While I agree he was talented, I am reluctant to label any guitarist "the greatest," even my own personal favorites, Jimmy Page and Alex Lifeson. There are simply too many out there, playing too many styles, past and present who are, in their own way, incomparable.

 

Andres Segovia, Jeff Beck, Mark Knopfler, Chet Atkins, Vince Gill, Charo, Roy Clark, Eddie Van Halen, Les Paul, Gary Hoey, Stanley Jordan, Earl Klugh, Steve Vai, Eric Clapton, Richie Blackmore, Jerry Reed, Billy Gibbons, Stevie Ray Vaughan, Vernon Reid, Django Reinhardt, Wes Montgomery... Just to name a few.

 

I'll add Buddy Guy and 2 anecdotes regarding him. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddy_Guy

 

There was a story floating around that when Hendrix was just starting out he failed to show up for a couple of gigs because he had gone to watch Buddy Guy play.

I saw Buddy Guy live one time and he was on stage just having fun and ran through a medley of songs and EXACTLY imitated the guitar sounds of BB King, Jimi Hendrix and John Lee Hooker, who had a very distinct sound and style.

 

There are so many very talented musicians, in many genres of music, that never get the recognition they deserve.

[Yellowhouse Sam # 25171]

Merle Travis

[Rye Miles #13621]

Andres Segovia……..Joe Pass……...

[Hardpan Curmudgeon SASS #8967]

Joe Satriani...

[DocWard]

I did say "to name a few!" I could've kept going and going... Oh, I did mention a couple that were mentioned again!

 

As for Buddy Guy, I always admired his playing, but watched a program that he was on playing with Eric Clapton, after I started taking guitar lessons and could better appreciate these things. Now, I recognize Clapton's talent, but never have been a major fan (I know, sacrilege!). I was amazed though, about how Buddy seemed so much more impressive.

[DocWard]

I'm not saying he was the greatest. Just that he was talented and others of renown thought he was, as well.

 

Recognition from one's peers is perhaps the best recognition of all

[Rye Miles #13621]

 

Recognition from one's peers is perhaps the best recognition of all

It depends on the peers! You'll never hear the great jazz guitarists or classical guitarists praise Prince's guitar playing. He was a Pop music Icon, very far removed from a virtuoso musician!!! That's my point in all of this ,Rock n Roll, Pop and Rap musicians are nowhere near the caliber of some of the jazz players that were mentioned above.

[Dirty Redd]

You can't compare Prince to these other artist's and musicians . He developed his own signature sound , just like Miles or Coltrane or Parker or Webb or even Brubeck . They were all great in their pursuit of musical excellence ,

 

 

my vast CD collection is proof of that , I do consider Prince as one of music's greatest contributor's which included his writing as well as his performing

[Rye Miles #13621]

You can't compare Prince to these other artist's and musicians . He developed his own signature sound , just like Miles or Coltrane or Parker or Webb or even Brubeck . They were all great in their pursuit of musical excellence ,

 

 

my vast CD collection is proof of that , I do consider Prince as one of music's greatest contributor's which included his writing as well as his performing

The complex chord patterns and solos and their virtuosity by some that you mentioned above are so far ahead musically from what Prince did it's almost not fair to even talk about them in the same sentence with a pop artist like Prince!

[DocWard]

It depends on the peers! You'll never hear the great jazz guitarists or classical guitarists praise Prince's guitar playing. He was a Pop music Icon, very far removed from a virtuoso musician!!! That's my point in all of this ,Rock n Roll, Pop and Rap musicians are nowhere near the caliber of some of the jazz players that were mentioned above.

 

 

The complex chord patterns and solos and their virtuosity by some that you mentioned above are so far ahead musically from what Prince did it's almost not fair to even talk about them in the same sentence with a pop artist like Prince!

 

I can't speak for Prince, but remember, just because a musician doesn't use complex chord patterns, scales, solos and the like, doesn't mean they can't. It really depends on what genre a musician is playing in, the group dynamics if in a group, etc... A prime example would be Andy Sommers of The Police. Often overlooked as a guitarist, he has a jazz background. Sting (no slouch with a guitar himself) once said that when Andy joined the band, they went from a guitarist who knew three chords to one who knew three thousand. Yet, when you listen to most of the music they produced, Andy's guitar is often very understated, and virtually never stands out. He shines more on his seldom heard solo work.

 

Another example is none other than Jimmy Page, who is in the link you posted of session musicians. Page was one of the busiest session guitarists in London in the sixties, with one producer estimating he performed on a large majority of the music produced during the time he was working. His guitar work includes heavily blues inspired stuff, folk, country, some classical and even jazz influenced playing. Listening to just his Led Zeppelin catalog, you can hear him using a pick, finger picking, hybrid picking, and using alternate tunings on his guitar (not just 'Drop D' as you hear a lot of these days, courtesy of Black Sabbath). Yet, most people would consider him "just" one of the premiere rock guitarists of his age.

[Dirty Redd]

The complex chord patterns and solos and their virtuosity by some that you mentioned above are so far ahead musically from what Prince did it's almost not fair to even talk about them in the same sentence with a pop artist like Prince!

Prince was not a pop artist . Prince was a man on a mission.

[Rye Miles #13621]

 

 

 

I can't speak for Prince, but remember, just because a musician doesn't use complex chord patterns, scales, solos and the like, doesn't mean they can't. It really depends on what genre a musician is playing in, the group dynamics if in a group, etc... A prime example would be Andy Sommers of The Police. Often overlooked as a guitarist, he has a jazz background. Sting (no slouch with a guitar himself) once said that when Andy joined the band, they went from a guitarist who knew three chords to one who knew three thousand. Yet, when you listen to most of the music they produced, Andy's guitar is often very understated, and virtually never stands out. He shines more on his seldom heard solo work.

 

Another example is none other than Jimmy Page, who is in the link you posted of session musicians. Page was one of the busiest session guitarists in London in the sixties, with one producer estimating he performed on a large majority of the music produced during the time he was working. His guitar work includes heavily blues inspired stuff, folk, country, some classical and even jazz influenced playing. Listening to just his Led Zeppelin catalog, you can hear him using a pick, finger picking, hybrid picking, and using alternate tunings on his guitar (not just 'Drop D' as you hear a lot of these days, courtesy of Black Sabbath). Yet, most people would consider him "just" one of the premiere rock guitarists of his age.

We'll have to agree to disagree . Jimmy Page, Sting and Andy Sommers were in no way the same caliber of musician that the great jazz and classical guitarists were. Jimmy Page was a busy studio musician playing nothing but pop and rock n Roll sessions. You'll never hear him on a Chick Corea , Miles Davis, etc. albums. The really great guitarists and other musicians are pretty much unknown to the average pop music listener of today.

[Blackwater 53393]

Any list of great guitarists that leaves out Dwayne Allman and Derrick Trucks doesn't merit consideration!! I also would include Toy Caldwell and Mark Knopfler among those who would give ANY jazz or classical artist a run for their money!!!

[Rye Miles #13621]

Any list of great guitarists that leaves out Dwayne Allman and Derrick Trucks doesn't merit consideration!! I also would include Toy Caldwell and Mark Knopfler among those who would give ANY jazz or classical artist a run for their money!!!

I disagree, those guys you mentioned have probably listened to countless hours of Al Dimeola, George Benson, Joe Pass, Andre Segovia, Pat Methany, etc. etc. They're probably heroes and idols of theirs!!!! Those guys are all "rockers", I'm talking about serious jazz and classical artists, there's absolutely no comparison.

 

I'm done with this conversation !!!!! You guys just don't get it!

[Lead Friend, SASS #53635]

I have not followed this entire string and I have never bought a Prince record but I admit that I enjoyed what music of his made it to the radio. I think everyone with enough curiosity to post on this thread should Google the phrase "world's greatest guitar solo Prince." It features Tom Petty, Jeff Lynne, Steve Winwood, George Harrison's son and many others at the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame performing the signature George Harrison song at his induction. What I have observed from a distance of Prince is that while his many musical choices might be up for debate on this thread, the dude could shred.

 

Respectfully submitted, for what it's worth.

[Rye Miles #13621]

Here's a couple of guys that with a little practice will be okay!!

 

[Blackwater 53393]

I disagree, those guys you mentioned have probably listened to countless hours of Al Dimeola, George Benson, Joe Pass, Andre Segovia, Pat Methany, etc. etc. They're probably heroes and idols of theirs!!!! Those guys are all "rockers", I'm talking about serious jazz and classical artists, there's absolutely no comparison.

 

I'm done with this conversation !!!!! You guys just don't get it!

 

 

Jazz!! Three or more people with instruments in their hands playing different tunes, all at the same time!!!

 

Rye!!

 

To say that others don't get it is to denigrate their knowledge and tastes!! Duayne Allman and Toy Caldwell both, SADLY and tragically, passed some years ago.

 

Most of the music world would give much to play as well as Duayne Allman played. Eric Clapton, in an interview some years ago, said he was in awe of Allman's touch, tone, and skill. Clapton did his best to convince him to join the Derrick and the Dominoes project on a permanent basis. He played sessions for rock, R&B, country, and classical artists and his own band, The Allman Brothers Band is rooted in the jazz and blues genre and has performed successfully for 45 years, crossing all boundaries in the music industry.

 

Toy Caldwell was one of the best kept secrets in guitar music of any kind!! He could play anything with strings on it, and I've heard numerous jazz and classical players say that he had great chops!!

 

At the last Crossroads festival, Trucks clearly showed thirty or more of the acknowledged top guitarists, in any field, how slide guitar is done!! Even Clapton and other slide players pay homage to his GENIUS!!! He is almost without peer.

 

Mark Knopfler is also recognized by the entire industry as one of the greatest jazz, classical, AND rock guitarists extant!!

 

Don't sell the rest of us short when it comes to knowledge of music or artists.

 

There was a session player and teacher here in Nashville who went by the name of Bunion Webb!! Chet Atkins took lessons from him as did many jazz and classical artists. He taught music and guitar at Blair Academy for many years. Chet once said the Webb had ten fingers on each hand and that he knew how to use every one of them.

 

Jazz and Classical are both great genres, BUT!! Don't sell some of these other players short!!

 

 

 

Maybe you should get out of your own box once in a while???

[DocWard]

We'll have to agree to disagree . Jimmy Page, Sting and Andy Sommers were in no way the same caliber of musician that the great jazz and classical guitarists were. Jimmy Page was a busy studio musician playing nothing but pop and rock n Roll sessions. You'll never hear him on a Chick Corea , Miles Davis, etc. albums. The really great guitarists and other musicians are pretty much unknown to the average pop music listener of today.

 

I disagree, those guys you mentioned have probably listened to countless hours of Al Dimeola, George Benson, Joe Pass, Andre Segovia, Pat Methany, etc. etc. They're probably heroes and idols of theirs!!!! Those guys are all "rockers", I'm talking about serious jazz and classical artists, there's absolutely no comparison.

 

I'm done with this conversation !!!!! You guys just don't get it!

 

Yes, you are correct, Jimmy Page did most of his studio work for pop acts and rock acts of the early to mid-sixties, the formative years in many respects of modern rock guitar. Page played for everyone from Tom Jones to The Who, Donavon, Van Morrison, The Kinks and others. Huge numbers of acts, all different, and needing to tailor his work to fit within the scheme of their music, quickly and deftly. Just because it is "pop" or "rock" doesn't mean it is the same, or necessarily simplistic. If you don't recognize the talent inherent in being able to do so, to fit in, be heard, to mimic and disappear all at once, then you are the one missing the point. Andy Sommers, on the other hand is a jazz guitarist. At least, guitar and jazz guitar magazines claim he is. Go figure.

 

I'm not criticizing Wes Montgomery, Django Reinhardt or other classical and jazz guitarists, or paying them short shrift. Heck, I mentioned 'em first! Looking down one's nose at someone who can play a blues solo that can tug at the heart strings, or play a soaring slide guitar using a coricidin bottle as Duane Allman did is failing to recognize that talent comes in many forms.

 

 

 

Jazz!! Three or more people with instruments in their hands playing different tunes, all at the same time!!!

 

Rye!!

 

To say that others don't get it is to denigrate their knowledge and tastes!! Dwayne Allman and Toy Caldwell both, SADLY and tragically, passed some years ago.

 

Most of the music world would give much to play as well as Dwayne Allman played. Eric Clapton, in an interview some years ago, said he was in awe of Allman's touch, tone, and skill. Clapton did his best to convince him to join the Derrick and the Dominoes project on a permanent basis. He played sessions for rock, R&B, country, and classical artists and his own band, The Allman Brothers Band is rooted in the jazz and blues genre and has performed successfully for 45 years, crossing all boundaries in the music industry.

 

Toy Caldwell was one of the best kept secrets in guitar music of any kind!! He could play anything with strings on it, and I've heard numerous jazz and classical players say that he had great chops!!

 

At the last Crossroads festival, Trucks clearly showed thirty or more of the acknowledged top guitarists, in any field, how slide guitar is done!! Even Clapton and other slide players pay homage to his GENIUS!!! He is almost without peer.

 

Mark Knopfler is also recognized by the entire industry as one of the greatest jazz, classical, AND rock guitarists extant!!

 

Don't sell the rest of us short when it comes to knowledge of music or artists.

 

There was a session player and teacher here in Nashville who went by the name of Bunion Webb!! Chet Atkins took lessons from him as did many other jazz and classical artists. He taught music and guitar at Blair Academy for many years. Chet once said the Webb had ten fingers on each hand and that he knew how to use every one of them.

 

Jazz and Classical are both great genres, BUT!! Don't sell some of these other players short!!

 

Well said!

[Rye Miles #13621]

 

 

Jazz!! Three or more people with instruments in their hands playing different tunes, all at the same time!!!

 

Rye!!

 

To say that others don't get it is to denigrate their knowledge and tastes!! Duayne Allman and Toy Caldwell both, SADLY and tragically, passed some years ago.

 

Most of the music world would give much to play as well as Duayne Allman played. Eric Clapton, in an interview some years ago, said he was in awe of Allman's touch, tone, and skill. Clapton did his best to convince him to join the Derrick and the Dominoes project on a permanent basis. He played sessions for rock, R&B, country, and classical artists and his own band, The Allman Brothers Band is rooted in the jazz and blues genre and has performed successfully for 45 years, crossing all boundaries in the music industry.

 

Toy Caldwell was one of the best kept secrets in guitar music of any kind!! He could play anything with strings on it, and I've heard numerous jazz and classical players say that he had great chops!!

 

At the last Crossroads festival, Trucks clearly showed thirty or more of the acknowledged top guitarists, in any field, how slide guitar is done!! Even Clapton and other slide players pay homage to his GENIUS!!! He is almost without peer.

 

Mark Knopfler is also recognized by the entire industry as one of the greatest jazz, classical, AND rock guitarists extant!!

 

Don't sell the rest of us short when it comes to knowledge of music or artists.

 

There was a session player and teacher here in Nashville who went by the name of Bunion Webb!! Chet Atkins took lessons from him as did many jazz and classical artists. He taught music and guitar at Blair Academy for many years. Chet once said the Webb had ten fingers on each hand and that he knew how to use every one of them.

 

Jazz and Classical are both great genres, BUT!! Don't sell some of these other players short!!

 

 

 

Maybe you should get out of your own box once in a while???

I'm not looking down on anyone and my box is as large as yours or anyone's. I like all kinds of music! I'm not saying these rock n rollers and blues and pop guys are not talented in they're own right I'm simply saying that to compare them with the awesome jazz and classical musicians that never get any attention is not right. I say this from being a working musician, private music teacher, (drums, marimba, vibes) since I was about 15 yrs old and a piano tuner/technician for the last 30 years. I think I know what I'm talking about when it comes to music! I apologize if I tend to come off a little high brow, that's not my intention I'm simply pointing out the musical genius is some of the players that I mentioned. Maybe you ought to listen to a little more jazz and classical artists and get out of YOUR OWN BOX!! Jazz, 3 musicians playing different songs at the same time??? Wow!!! That's a pretty lame definition of jazz

[Blackwater 53393]

Actually, you were implying that some of these rockers, country artists, and blues players were neither as talented nor as technically capable as the jazz and classical artists you mention and that these players most likely idolize them. I've seen and heard most all of them at one time or another over the last fifty years. I studied music in high school and college and have been performing myself for nearly that long. Great is great!! It doesn't matter what kind of music you play!!!

 

Regardless of genre or style, most of these performers respect talent, no matter what the format. Because my hands don't work like they need to, I haven't played guitar in years and I never was really very good, but I've shared the stage with some of the best. A few years ago, my band followed Buddy Guy, a task most bands wouldn't attempt. We held our own and then some! Not too bad for a club and cover band that never had a hit of their own!!

 

I know about great players who never got the recognition! I've enjoyed the company of one for over twenty years!! He sometimes sells himself short, but many top players have asked to sit in with us so they could play with him!! A half dozen or so of my high school classmates went on to play with some of the greats of rock and country music for more than a cup of coffee. A couple of them have come back to play with us because it makes them happy and because of the respect we share for one another.

 

 

 

 

And....... I don't have a box!

[Rye Miles #13621]

Blackwater you sound like a great dude, maybe we can "jam" sometimes!!!

[Blackwater 53393]

Blackwater you sound like a great dude, maybe we can "jam" sometimes!!!

 

Come on down and join us at The Black Gold Shootout, July 14th through 16th!! The party actually starts around Sunday the 10th but we're playing the closing show on Saturday night. There'll be a Bluegrass show on Friday night and the shoot itself is one of the best you'll ever attend!! The Black Powder Outlaw World Champeenship will be on Thursday and this thang is just one huge HOOT!!!

[DocWard]

Glad some common ground was found. Funny thing, I heard the humorous definition of jazz something like twenty years ago.

 

Personally, I am not very talented at guitar, coming to it late in life. I was a singer (choir, ensemble, etc...) through high school and college. I half-jokingly say it wasn't my best plan to try to learn something that requires fine motor control after pounding my hands against things for almost ten years in Kenpo. However, my love of guitar and guitarists goes back to my childhood, when my brother-in-law would play his custom made classical guitar (don't ask me the brand, I just recall it was made in Spain for him). He plays classical and flamenco, among other styles, and eschews playing with a pick at all. He turned me on to guys like Segovia and Earl Klugh, among others, and I can listen and recognize the complexity and hopefully the nuances of different styles.

It does sound like listening to the two of you jamming would be a fun time though!

[Chantry]

I don't think it is entirely fair to the musicians themselves to try and determine who the best guitarist might be when they play in different music genres with different song structures.

[Calamity Kris]

I don't think it is entirely fair to the musicians themselves to try and determine who the best guitarist might be when they play in different music genres with different song structures.

 

Well said. I was actually formulating a response while in the shower this morning. I had likened to to bemoaing Derek Jeter as an athlete because he can't hold his own against tacklers on a football field as well as Barry Sanders could. Of course not. Just because Jeter was a premiere baseball player doesn't mean he could be a premere football player. It also didn't make him any less of a baseball player. The same goes for music. Just because Mark Knopfler or Prince don't play jazz, it doesn't take away from their greatness. It just means they are great in a different way.

[Rye Miles #13621]

 

Come on down and join us at The Black Gold Shootout, July 14th through 16th!! The party actually starts around Sunday the 10th but we're playing the closing show on Saturday night. There'll be a Bluegrass show on Friday night and the shoot itself is one of the best you'll ever attend!! The Black Powder Outlaw World Champeenship will be on Thursday and this thang is just one huge HOOT!!!

I wish I could but I'm already committed to a 3 day shoot here!!! I love bluegrass!!! See, I'm not a "jazz" snob!!!

[Chantry]

 

The same goes for music. Just because Mark Knopfler or Prince don't play jazz, it doesn't take away from their greatness. It just means they are great in a different way.

 

I actually think that Mark Knopfler is an even better songwriter then he is a guitar player and he a brilliant guitar player. The lyrics to "Brothers in Arms" or "Done with Bonaparte" are some of the best I've heard about soldiers. "So Far From the Clyde" is really good as well and "Secondary Waltz" is a less serious, whimsical song.

[grenadier]

I'm partial to Kerry King, Dave Mustaine, Kirk Hammet and Les Claypoole.

[Shootin' Shu]

I'll take Knopfler in any guitar show down..

[Rye Miles #13621]

I'll take Knopfler in any guitar show down..

Good guitarist but not the caliber of Al Dimeola and many others I can think of. What kind of "showdown"?? Jazz? Classical??? I thought we all determined that each musician we talked about was great in their own genre??? Why are you talking "showdown"??? Ridiculous hypothetical!!

[Calamity Kris]

I believe this has been posted here before but I believe it adds to the debate. If you want to watch some serious genre bending picking, check this out. Mark Knopfler and Chet Atkins.

 

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=mark+knopfler+and+chet+atkins&qpvt=mark+knopfler+and+chet+atkins&view=detail&mid=3D263CC1FF6CE68F151D3D263CC1FF6CE68F151D&FORM=VRDGAR

[Chantry]

I believe this has been posted here before but I believe it adds to the debate. If you want to watch some serious genre bending picking, check this out. Mark Knopfler and Chet Atkins.

 

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=mark+knopfler+and+chet+atkins&qpvt=mark+knopfler+and+chet+atkins&view=detail&mid=3D263CC1FF6CE68F151D3D263CC1FF6CE68F151D&FORM=VRDGAR

 

I enjoyed the Mark Knopfler and Chet Atkins CD Neck and Neck and sounds like they enjoyed themselves as well