My 1st stage DQ, rules question

[Ace_of_Hearts]

From shuffling feet to gunfighter holstering............................ Amazing segue!

[watab kid]

i rather like these discussions because they clarify things that seem to be gray in some venues , i got from this that if the violation occurred as stated it was NOT a violation and we older less stable folks could shift a foot to stay stable as long as we were not substantially changing position , i think i learned more from this thread than simply reading the rule book --- did i ????

[Carolina Gunslinger]

i rather like these discussions because they clarify things that seem to be gray in some venues , i got from this that if the violation occurred as stated it was NOT a violation and we older less stable folks could shift a foot to stay stable as long as we were not substantially changing position , i think i learned more from this thread than simply reading the rule book --- did i ????

Haha watch out there pard, them are sacrilegious words about the rulebook! Don't let it hear you, or else they may be thunderclouds at your next match. The targets could get wet. I hear they're harder to hit that way, bullets slip right off without making a sound. Haha

 

In all seriousness, one thing I have learned is to be careful with the wording applied to the rules. "As long as the shooter does not actually change location," not substantially changing position. Position is vague, are you going from standing to kneeling or down to prone? Or are you traveling up or downrange? As PWB said in his take on this, "the shooter could practically dance a jig." Well dancing a jig allows for a lot of different body positions. Best not to change location though or they're liable to penalize you and you'll be dancing all the way to the unloading table earlier than intended.

[Seldom Seen #16162]

Unfortunately SASS is a perfect example of how a children's game is ruined when adults get involved.

 

When I started participating in CAS with SASS the rules were in a rulebook that was small enough to fit in the shirt pocket. Look at what it has evolved into. A Shooters Handbook and a large enough R.O.1 manual to fill a three ring binder.

 

This thread is a perfect example of a poor rule. Traveling in basketball is very clear. You keep one foot planted until you dibble the ball or after you stop dibbling the ball. SASS rulebook even cites the basketball traveling rule.

 

With this SASS rule the shooter sort of plants his foot. You plant it but you can go ahead and move (shuffle) both feet after planting it to have a more secure shooting position.

 

R.O.1 Manual says "Shuffling" the feet to maintain balance or adjust shooting stance is allowed as long as the shooter does not actually change location.

 

So moving my feet to a different position is not considered changing my location?

 

So what the heck does "shuffle" mean? Slide your feet without lifting them from the ground? How far can I shuffle my feet? 3" or 1' or 2'?

 

If my foot comes off of ground while attempting to get a more secure shooting position is that a step? If the foot is not allowed to come off of the ground are we going to have shooter penalties because his foot came 1/4" off of the ground when trying to do the shuffle?

 

Since we need to define what a shuffle is we need to define what a step is.

 

Flame away but when we have to say "well I know it says you can't do something but we are going to allow you to break the rule because of " it is a poorly written and maybe unneeded rule.

[Cowboy Rick, SASS #49739L]

Unfortunately SASS is a perfect example of how a children's game is ruined when adults get involved.

 

When I started participating in CAS with SASS the rules were in a rulebook that was small enough to fit in the shirt pocket. Look at what it has evolved into. A Shooters Handbook and a large enough R.O.1 manual to fill a three ring binder.

 

This thread is a perfect example of a poor rule. Traveling in basketball is very clear. You keep one foot planted until you dibble the ball or after you stop dibbling the ball. SASS rulebook even cites the basketball traveling rule.

 

With this SASS rule the shooter sort of plants his foot. You plant it but you can go ahead and move (shuffle) both feet after planting it to have a more secure shooting position.

 

R.O.1 Manual says "Shuffling" the feet to maintain balance or adjust shooting stance is allowed as long as the shooter does not actually change location.

 

So moving my feet to a different position is not considered changing my location?

 

So what the heck does "shuffle" mean? Slide your feet without lifting them from the ground? How far can I shuffle my feet? 3" or 1' or 2'?

 

If my foot comes off of ground while attempting to get a more secure shooting position is that a step? If the foot is not allowed to come off of the ground are we going to have shooter penalties because his foot came 1/4" off of the ground when trying to do the shuffle?

 

Since we need to define what a shuffle is we need to define what a step is.

 

Flame away but when we have to say "well I know it says you can't do something but we are going to allow you to break the rule because of " it is a poorly written and maybe unneeded rule.

I think the clarification came about because there is a higher potential for harm if you fall with a loaded gun than if you fall while dribbling a basketball

 

CR

[Blastmaster]

Seldom Seen,

 

If you are old enough to remember watching the Carol Burnett Show with Tim Conway & Harvey Korman skits, and Tim is acting like the nutty ol man professor doing the shuffle walk, then that is what this shuffle rule is about.

 

If you are too young to remember the Tim Conway shuffle walk, then you must do the basketball plant one foot and pivot routing.(kidding)

 

The only time I've seen a person shuffle, was when they had no clue they were doing it and foot movements was just a very few (couple??) inches.. Kinda teeter-tottering just standing there, if ya know what I mean.

 

I am good with the new rule.

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

The "inspiration" for the clarifying EXCEPTION to the BBT has been posted on this thread.

Please keep in mind that we are NOT playing basketball out on the range.

The link to the applicable definition of "location" in the RO1 has also been posted here.

See also the last paragraph on page 1 of the SHB.

 

...and if anyone is going to quote me re: a specific statement/comment, please keep it in context & don't chop it in order to justify your own opinion.

[Cheyenne Culpepper 32827]

Great change!!!! hated that rule, right along with the white diamond rule!!!!

[Cheatin Charlie]

Great change!!!! hated that rule, right along with the white diamond rule!!!!

Hay, that white diamond is a great advantage and not cowboy!

[Seldom Seen #16162]

Seldom Seen,

 

If you are old enough to remember watching the Carol Burnett Show with Tim Conway & Harvey Korman skits, and Tim is acting like the nutty ol man professor doing the shuffle walk, then that is what this shuffle rule is about.

 

If you are too young to remember the Tim Conway shuffle walk, then you must do the basketball plant one foot and pivot routing.(kidding)

 

The only time I've seen a person shuffle, was when they had no clue they were doing it and foot movements was just a very few (couple??) inches.. Kinda teeter-tottering just standing there, if ya know what I mean.

 

I am good with the new rule.

 

 

I remember the Carol Burnett show. As best as I can recall Tim Conway was changing his location when he was shuffling walk. However that does not apply since in SASS the shooter can only "shuffle" without changing their location.

 

When subjective exceptions and definitions are made to the rules the rules lose their credibility especially when the penalty (SDQ) is severe.

 

Let me rephrase my point.

 

Since the shooter is allowed to move their feet with a loaded firearm then the assumption must be when doing so it does not create a serious safety risk and danger to other people at the range. Since the safety risk / danger is lower then lowering the penalty should reflect that such as changing the penalty from SDQ to MSV.

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

 

 

I remember the Carol Burnett show. As best as I can recall Tim Conway was changing his location when he was shuffling walk. However that does not apply since in SASS the shooter can only "shuffle" without changing their location.

 

When subjective exceptions and definitions are made to the rules the rules lose their credibility especially when the penalty (SDQ) is severe.

 

Let me rephrase my point.

 

Since the shooter is allowed to move their feet with a loaded firearm then the assumption must be when doing so it does not create a serious safety risk and danger to other people at the range. Since the safety risk / danger is lower then lowering the penalty should reflect that such as changing the penalty from SDQ to MSV.

 

There is a big difference between moving one or both feet in order to obtain a more stable shooting stance & moving to a different shooting location with a cocked/loaded firearm in hand.

IMO...those who refuse to see THAT point (ref the post in which the primary reason for the clarification was explained) are being purposely obtuse.

[Keystone, SASS # 47578]

Dang PaleWolf,

 

I couldn't find "obtuse" in the Glossary of Terms in the RO I Manual. Who'd a thunk it?

 

Hasta Luego, Keystone

[Yusta B.]

Dang PaleWolf,

 

I couldn't find "obtuse" in the Glossary of Terms in the RO I Manual. Who'd a thunk it?

 

Hasta Luego, Keystone

It's used to describe Mastodons that won't move out of the way when you're driving down the road ......

[J. Mark Flint #31954 LIFE]

I crawled out of my cave to read this? Ugh! I'm going to build a bigger fire and burn my old rule books.

[Marauder SASS #13056]

Obtuse, the larger angle rather than that cute little acute angle. :D

[Cowboy Rick, SASS #49739L]

I crawled out of my cave to read this? Ugh! I'm going to build a bigger fire and burn my old rule books.

You can read?

 

Good to see your smiling face from time to time

 

CR

[Shooting Bull]

 

There is a big difference between moving one or both feet in order to obtain a more stable shooting stance & moving to a different shooting location with a cocked/loaded firearm in hand.

IMO...those who refuse to see THAT point (ref the post in which the primary reason for the clarification was explained) are being purposely obtuse.

 

I knew the instant I read those fancy words you'd stepped in it. Reading the following posts proved me right. Dang it PaleWolf, how many times do I have to tell you to stop using such big words?

 

(By the way, you spelled "purposefully" wrong. )

[Yusta B.]

 

I knew the instant I read those fancy words you'd stepped in it. Reading the following posts proved me right. Dang it PaleWolf, how many times do I have to tell you to stop using such big words?

 

(By the way, you spelled "purposefully" wrong. )

Or maybe

pur·pose·ly

ˈpərpəslē/

adverb

adverb: purposely

on purpose; intentionally.

"she had purposely made it difficult"

synonyms: deliberately, intentionally, on purpose, by design, willfully, knowingly, consciously, of one's own volition; More

expressly, specifically, especially, specially

"the buildings were purposely

[Shooting Bull]

 

Or maybe

pur·pose·ly

ˈpərpəslē/

adverb

adverb: purposely

on purpose; intentionally.

"she had purposely made it difficult"

synonyms: deliberately, intentionally, on purpose, by design, willfully, knowingly, consciously, of one's own volition; More

expressly, specifically, especially, specially

"the buildings were purposely

 

 

 

Shhhh, let's see if he catches it.

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

 

 

Shhhh, let's see if he catches it.

 

He did!

 

 

ob·tuse

[əbˈt(y)o͞os, äbˈt(y)o͞os]

ADJECTIVE

1. annoyingly insensitive or slow to understand:

Source: Oxford Dictionary

 

[Seldom Seen #16162]

Oh I understand PWB point very well. When name calling begins then a logical arguments are lost.

 

A rose by another name would smell just as sweet...

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

Oh I understand PWB point very well.

Really? Do you understand the reason for clarifying the actual rule in its original form to apply "as written' to actually CHANGING LOCATION (a defined term) & NOT to moving both feet "in place"?

That understanding isn't exactly clear in your post suggesting that the penalty for "changing location with a cocked/loaded firearm in hand" be changed to a MSV...with no logical basis for THAT change.

BTW - Are you aware that changing location with a cocked/loaded firearm & unfired round under the hammer was conditionally ALLOWED via stage instruction before (and, for a short period of time, even after) the institution of the BBT "no traveling" rule"?

 

When name calling begins then a logical arguments are lost.

Not necessarily...if the observation & opinion is valid, how does pointing it out negate the facts that have been reiterated throughout this thread?

 

A rose by another name would smell just as sweet...

There's another quote (often attributed to Confucius) in regard to the fitting of footwear that might also fit the comments made above.

[Beartrap SASS#57175]

Sure will be glad when the WTC forum is operational!

[Keystone, SASS # 47578]

Well,

 

How can you tell if a person is naturally or purposely obtuse?

 

Hasta Luego, Keystone

 

PS Is being obtuse kind of the way a teacher described a student in my high school history class, "You're like a rim on a bucket, all around it but not in it."

[irish ike, SASS #43615]

The "muddled" conjecture that shuffling would also entail moving the shooters position is exactly why we have 3 rule books. Someone is always "lawering" words to get around a rule or create their own interpretation of a rule.

 

As it has been said very often, 3 pages of comments even after the OP was answered on page one just proves that people don't want to believe reality when its thrown in their face.
ike

[Hoss]

There is a big difference between moving one or both feet in order to obtain a more stable shooting stance & moving to a different shooting location with a cocked/loaded firearm in hand.

IMO...those who refuse to see THAT point (ref the post in which the primary reason for the clarification was explained) are being purposely obtuse.

and anybody that doesn't know/understand the difference between shuffling to obtain a more stable stance and moving probably ought not to be holding the timer!

[Cheyenne Culpepper 32827]

sad truth is not many people read the wire or RO rules updates.... and too many TGs fail to enlighten their clubs

[Don Coyote, SASS #63736]

Sure will be glad when the WTC forum is operational!

But it probably won't be near as entertaining!

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

Location – a physical point on a stage e.g. "behind the door…."

...

...

Position – the posture and stance of the shooter. e.g. “the shooter starts with hands touching hat …”

 

[Blastmaster]

Location – a physical point on a stage e.g. "behind the door…."

 

A 'physical point' to a survey is a punch mark on a 1 1/2" diameter aluminum surveyors cap and can be quantified by measurements that are stated in Northings & Eastings and can be reestablished.

 

A physical point can also be interpreted as the real estate under ones foot (basketball rule)

 

A physical point can also be interpreted as 'behind the door', which could be behind but anywhere

from the extreme left/right side of door on the firing line. Or, within arms/kicking range, or one/two feet directly behind.

 

 

Always best for all concern to clarify by PM walk through or before first round goes down range so all shooters, spotters and officials can make fair and consistent calls.

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

[Dirty Southpaw]

sad truth is not many people read the wire or RO rules updates.... and too many TGs fail to enlighten their clubs

that is spot on from what I have seen......