American Sharps vs Italian Sharps

[Isom Dart, SASS#8096]

Not trying to open a can of worms ,,,,,,,,, but,,, are the Ital. Sharps competitive with the Amer. Sharps ?? With all things being equal,; shooters ability, load, caliber, weather, etc.. Say from 300-1000 yds.. I read Black Powder Cartridge mag. and you might see an Ital. Sharps in the top somewhere. But usually if it's a Sharps, it's an Amer. Sharps. Is it because the name "Sharps" is American like Winchester, Colt, Remington, Jack Daniels, Budweiser and apple pie ,, or what ??? Like ,I said ,,, no can opening ,,, just curious. Really ! I posted this question on another site but haven't gotten any replies. No, it wasn't any of the Amer. or Ital. Sharps sites.

Thanks,

Isom

[Dusty Morningwood]

I do know that the Pedersoli barrels have greatly increased in quality over the past decade. It is the fit and finish that is the biggest difference now, I believe.

[Yellowhouse Sam # 25171]

The Pedersoli's have very good barrels overall but the fit and finish is not there yet nor is the metallurgy of internals compared to the US made rifles. I could be wrong but in checking match scores in BPC News there doesn't seem to be many, if any, match winners with Italians but I'm sure that a top shooter could take a Pedi and win with it most of the time. That said, if there was an advantage to a Pedi then shooters would flock to it regardless of the cost which keeps edging up into the realm of a Shiloh or C. Sharps. In addition, the italyun sights are no where as dependable as say Hoke, MVA, Steve Baldwin, etc.

 

A Pedi or Uberti will not have the resale of an American made rifle either nor will they hold the mystique. YMMV

 

 

 

[Lunger]

I own both, and the short answer is yes they are as accurate. I just sold a ped.Quigley that out shoots my c sharps 4590. If the load is tuned in both, and the shooter equal, good sights, it'll boil down to who can read the wind the best.

[Henry T Harrison]

The tin sights on my Pedersoli are a joke for what was a pretty expensive rifle

[irish ike, SASS #43615]

Sharps and C Sharps no doubt have better fit and finish and allows the buyer to customize their selection. Also a larger caliber selection.

The shooters say the quality of the barrel is what matters. My understanding is Pedersoli barrels are on par with the American.

 

That being the case are you buying something to shoot and don't really care about scratches etc so go with the Pedersoli.

 

I shoot with people who own a cross section of rifles made by different manufacturers. Ultimately the accuracy of the rifle depends on the shooter, the conditions, and having worked up a bullet and load that "works" for that rifle.

 

I shoot a Pedersoli Sharps in 45-70 and I'm as accurate as the guys with $3,000 American Sharps.

 

The list of winning rifles I believe is influenced by the perception the American made rifles are better, they are buying better overall quality rifles, and they are "buying American".

 

I want an American rifle but only because it will look nicer and hold a better resale value.

Ike

[irish ike, SASS #43615]

Also as mentioned above, throw the Pedersoli sites away and buy some good ones. Both front and rear. I bought Montana Vintage Arms long range soule with a hooded front site and spirit level.

It made a big difference.

Ike

[Snakebite]

If you are trying to make a comparison, DON'T. They are not in the league when it comes to putting the Bullet on the mark, time after time.

 

Snakebite

[Johnny Dollar]

I own a C Sharps 1875 45/70 and love it.. that being said I've seen a number of Italian sharps and they are absolutely beautiful and shoot just as well. I got mine a very good price used but if I were going to buy new, I'd probably buy a Pedersoli.

 

[Knarley Bob]

I shoot what I can afford. I have a Pedersoli "Quiggley" and cannot complain about it's ability to hit what I am aiming at. Once you figure out what to feed it, you are off to the races. I'll admit they have boring wood, but the fit on mine is quite good.

I have never had the chance to shoot an American "Sharps" but I don't think that my eyes would get sharper or my hold any steadier shooting one. I have shot shoulder to shoulder with them, and it wasn't the rifle that failed to do it's job.

As far as pretty wood, one can always buy pretty wood................

 

Knarley

[Isom Dart, SASS#8096]

Sorry, I should have mentioned that I already have a Pedersoli Quigley. Had it about 4 yrs now. Right time,,,, right price. Shoots good for me,,,,,200 yds. is the limit around me,,,,,,,heavyyyy as he**. But it's fun to shoot. Like I said,,,, I was just curious. Thanks for all your input.

Isom

[Snakebite]

Everyone has their own ideas of what is acceptable. Often that is greatly influence by cost, and there is no doubt that the USA made guns cost more. I've had both... a number of both, and a couple of the Italian guns shot OK at best, but nothing super great, just OK. Many/most of them would not shoot worth a darn in any true Long Range competition. Most of the Cowboy long range matches are quarter on the bubble, inch on the yard when it comes to needed accuracy. Go down to the 1000 yd range and see which guns repeat time after time. Yes.. you can play with building your ammo.. in fact you MUST, you can put Baldwin, MVA or some other good sights on it... in fact you must, but all the ammo development in the world, and the best sights money can buy will never turn one of those Italian replicas into a true Long Range competition rifle. Even my old Browning BPCR would outshoot them, and it was no Jewel. I've had several of them that were suppose to be chambered for the 45-70.... 5 out of 5 of one particular gun had to be sent back because the chambers were so long that you could actually chamber a 45-120 cartridge!!! After 5 attempts to get one that was actually chambered for the 45-70, and 5 returns, I actually made contact with the Owner of the factory in Italy. He told me that All of his guns were chambered very long to avoid problems. He also said that his guns were NEVER intended to be high level competition rifles. They were made for people that wanted a shootable replica, that was affordable. IMO.. C-Sharps makes the most affordable quality shooting rifle on the market. Of course the Shilo is prettier, and an EXCELLENT shooter, but the C-Sharps is IMO the entry level for a quality shooting BP cartridge Long Range Rifle.

 

 

Snakebite

[Snakebite]

.

[Rye Miles #13621]

Budweiser is not American anymore!

[John Boy]

This a long post folks but reference to internal parts and most importantly Pedersoli barrels which are the heart of any rifle - they are MATCH GRADE, too and including Gibbs rifle barrels that are rated by long range muzzleloader shooters as the Number 1 rifle barrel Internationally supported by many world class match wins

 

From: dicktrenk1 (Original Message)

Sent: 6/25/2006 12:52 PM

 

This is a reply to comments seen in the post titled "Uberti and Peita".

 

Ireload2: I agree with you about there being no excuse for using soft steel in replica guns. We have seen lots of reports about such problems over the years.

Sometimes we read about US made guns having this same problem but I think we must be fair and say that such individual gun reports are the exception and they are very few compared to the number of guns sold by each maker.

 

Pedersoli barrels are machined from a chrome moly alloy having the metalurgical composition called 30Cr Mo4 Uni 7845 which is a patented alloy variation developed by Mauser in the 1930s specially for their new M34 light machinegun which has such a rapid rate of fire. The alloy was designed to prevent or minimize the barrel from "walking" the bullets on the target as the barrel heated up. To my knowledge only Mauser, Sako, Mannlicher and Walther use this expensive alloy which Pedersoli buys.

 

For our action frames ( and other parts such as breech blocks etc.) we use a special alloy which is best suited for the "forging" process we use on ALL our Sharps, Rolling Block, Trapdoor, Colt Lightning and forthcoming HiWall rifles.

This alloy is identified as being 18Cr Mo4. This alloy alows what is called "cementation hardening." Which gives a hard wear resistant surface of proper depth, while maintaining a non-brittle softer internal molecular structure necessary on such parts which are subject to shock and high stress loadings repeatedly.

This alloy also allows us to produce very colorful case hardened exterior surfaces so desired in fine guns. The alloy can also be finished in standard hot blue/black or "coin" color finishes.

 

Smaller parts are made from equally suitable steel alloys and are properly heat treated by means of induction coil methods and oil or water quenched, according to the desired hardness and type of alloy being used.

Only an idiot would buy and use a cheap soft alloy in critical gu parts ! Your reputation would soon be ruined and your guns considered to be cheap and short lived.

Pedersoli knows we have this problem with some other replica makers.

Mr. Pedersoli is in his 3rd term as President of the Consortium de Brescian Armie Mfr. (Brescia Region Arms Mfr. Association). This organization is constantly working to improve the quality of products supplied by both the arms makers as well as the dozens of small component suppliers who serve the industry in the Brescia Valley Tromph region where almost all the Italian gun industry is located.

 

Seeing first hand, the dedication of the gunsmiths and machine operators and hand crafters working for generations at Pedersoli..... I have no hesitation saying their number one concern is quality and durability of the guns being produced.

Family file cabinets have aging records showing orders for Matchlock guns which were being built in the late 1500s. Their first Wheelock actions were built in 1599-1602 period. Flintlock guns were being produced by Pedersoli ancestors in the same Brescia region by early in the 1620s period.

The fast moving river running right through the Valley Tromph is fed by the higher waters of Lake Garda and Lake Como. This constant year round rush of water powered water wheels which turned the lathes and drill presses of the northern Italian industrial region. We see the same sort of history in the New England region of the US where good water power made manufacturing much easier before steam power was available.

These old time Italian gun makers like Beretta (right next door to Pedersoli) have been making firearms before America was even explored and settled. They know quite a bit about the business and are 100% up to date as far a modern materials and methods are concerned. The workers are usually multi-generational skilled gun builders whose fathers and the fathers before them were doing the same type of work. The apprenticeship program in the Brescia region gives a priority to workers whose ancestors are or have worked in this business. It is tightly controlled and the quality is always high.

Dick T

 

From: dicktrenk1

Sent: 6/16/2006 10:10 PM

 

CM: Yes....thanks for alerting the board to this interesting article by Jeffrey Kolbe.

I read it completely and have a few comments which I believe you will find of interest.

Mr. Kolbe does not mention the process of Broach Rifling which is a form of cut rifling. Instead of a single point cutter being drawn through a prepared bore hole many many times, the bore hole is prepared to whatever standard the maker desires. Then a long broach having 14-16 sets of cutters on it is pulled slowly through the bore hole. (of course ample lubrication is always flowing).

 

Each set of cutters is slightly larger than the prior set and as the broach is pulled through, these cutters (made in the shape of the grooves desired) cut equally in all directions and gradually produce the grooves of the barrel.

This broach rifling is the process used by Pedersoli to rifle all the barrels, both for muzzle loading guns as well as for cartridge rifles.

 

Mr. Kolbe mentions that barrel makers will ream the drilled bore hole to obtain a level of smoothness before they start cutting grooves.

 

At Pedersoli all barrels are drilled and reamed but then we add a third step which is to HONE the bore hole to bring it up to the match grade tolerance of the final bore diameter. Also the honing produces a much finer finish in the bore hole and this fine finish becomes the tops of your lands.....mirror finish affect before we start the broaches on their job of cutting all the grooves.

 

Also, we use two of these 5-6 foot long broaches on each rifle barrel.

The first broach brings the rifling up to within .0020" of the final dimension. The second broach having 15 cutters brings the rifling up the last .0020" to the final dimension.

This second broach has the last three cutters of the exact same size. As cutter #13 makes the final tiny cut it is worn a bit. Eventually cutter #13 will no longer bring the groove up to the final diameter so cutter #14 which has been doing no work, comes into play and handles that final cut.

#14 eventually wears a bit and cutter #15 which has done no work up to this time, comes into play and takes over making the final cut.

 

Experience tells us when to remove the broaches and have them resharpened back to normal dimensions. Barrels are visually inspected using a borescope which projects the picture onto a large TV monitor. Air gaging is performed to verify the rifling is within match grade tolerances (plus/minus .0002").

 

Kolbe is correct in pointing out that cut rifled barrels have no stress created during the cutting operations. The broach rifling process also is done with multiple thin cuts and produces zero stress in the barrel.

 

He also mentions how lapped barrels usually are more accurate because high spots can be leveled out. However, lapping does almost nothing for low spots which are not touched by the lap.

 

What makes one barrel shoot more accurately than another is certainly an interesting subject and we believe that the key factor is to have a barrel rifled so that virtually zero gas pressure escapes around the moving bullet as it travels down the barrel.

A barrel which has even small regions of wide spots will allow gas to blow around the bullet when the bullet is in such a wide region.

Black powder pressures do NOT continue to obturate (expand) a lead bullet much past 6-10 inches of travel from the chamber. This means that from 6-10" past the chamber the bullet can be squeezed down when running over tight spots but that bullet will NOT obturate back up full size when it gets back into a normal portion of the barrel. Therefore, the bullet, once squeezed down will remain loose (and leak gas pressure) down the remainder of the travel distance in the barrel. Hard fouling in the barrel has this same affect of squeezing down a bullet which never puffs up again.

 

Assuming you load almost perfectly equal powder charges you should technically expect the same muzzle velocity shot after shot. For various reasons this does not happen but with careful reloading and a perfectly sealed bullet you will be getting single digit MV variations in a long string. This is probably the major factor seperating match grade barrels from run of the mill barrels.

 

Although all the costly and careful preparation of the bore hole and the careful cut rifling or broach rifling of a barrel are designed to produce a barrel having exactly the same bore and groove dimensions the full length of the barrel....... this is not actually happening. We are extremely close to this utopia but actually we can use ultra measuring devices and see that our finest barrels do have some variations measured to the one hundred thousandths of an inch. Of course such extremely small variations have virtually no affect on accuracy of the match grade barrel but none-the less we are aware that our most dedicated efforts and hand work still leaves us a little short of "perfection."

 

So........ given that we broach rifle our Pedersoli barrels and obtain straight lands and grooves with match grade tolerances we then add our final high quality feature which is to impart a very small taper on the rifling, from breech to muzzle !

Now when a bullet is fired in this barrel is is constantly entering slightly smaller dimensions and thus it maintains almost a perfect gas seal....resulting in those highly required "single digit" muzzle velocity variations as well as extremely small velocity spred (ES) in a long stringnof shots.

With groove and bore dimensions held to the match grade standards of plus/minus .0002" and then having the little taper to the entire length of the rifling, we end up with barrels which are capable of accuracy equal to or superior to any other barrels made today, and at a price many can afford.

All Pedersoli BPCR barrels , regardless of the selling price of the gun or name of the dealer, are made using the broach rifling system and all these barrels are of equal quality and accuracy.

We use these same methods for rifled muzzle loading rifle barrels such as the Gibbs model which is dominating out to 1000 yards these past three years.

We know we are selling great barrels to both ordinary shooters and to master class shooters. Your own skills in reloading and shooting determine your results. Our job was to sell you a gun barrel which will NOT be the cause of a poor score.

Dick T.

[Lunger]

So is a c sharps entry level because of the way it looks, or the way it shoots? What is it about the Shiloh, or the c sharps that mechanically makes them more accurate than all pedersoli rifles? I never experienced the chamber problems you described, or know of anyone who has. It sure could happen easily though, I'm not saying it didn't happen to you. We've always heard that the Italian rifles just won't cut it, but nobody really says why.

[Snakebite]

Hello Lunger... The rifle with the long chambers was a Pedretti & Sons.. they make 1874 rifles for many importers, with various names on them, IMO, they are not worth a damn. I don't doubt that you have not experienced the long chamber problems, but it is something that has been known for a long time. Google it, and you will find many references to the long chambers on various forums. I believe that the Pedersoli is a much better gun than the Pedretti, although I could never get my Quigley to shoot worth a hoot. My C-Sharps 40-65 would shoot circles around it, and even the Browning would too. I did have a couple of Pedersoli Rolling blocks that were pretty good. The Shilo 74 was by far the best, but cost over twice what the C-Sharps did, and had a long wait. I'm sure not going to argue about any of it, and regardless of what reports are made about this or that, everyone needs to just read the various forums and will see that there is always a controversy about the Italian rifles, but there is rarely anyone that says the USA Made rifles have any problems. I guess everyone needs to make up their own mind.. I just know what my first hand experience has been. I have long since grown tired of the Long Range venue and have sold off all of my Long Range guns and sights except for one Low Wall. I had a Uberti 38-55 High Wall that was only a so-so shooter, but I liked it none the less.. it was ok for this game at the meager distances and target sizes used, however, it wouldn't shoot any better than the cheap H&R Classic. My Browning 38-55 did a better job than both of them.

 

Snakebite

[Knarley Bob]

When I first wanted a "Sharps" rifle I ran across an I.A.B. business rifle. The chamber was so rough that I needed a ram rod to extract the shell case. I took it back, and they sent me one of their "Deluxe" models. That one was supposed to be in 45-70. As I learned more about loading BCPR, I realized that it was chambered some where between 45-70 and 45-90 some where. The clock work inside the gun looked as tho it had been marked out with chalk, and cut out with an axe. As far as the wood to metal fit, there was a spot or two you could literally see day light through! Later , parts, namely the safety fell off of the gun. The bore was dark & ruff as a fence post!!!

I then bought a Pedersoli, the clock works were like a Swiss watch, the bore was like a mirror, and it is chambered right on the button. Nothing has fallen off this gun in the 10 years I have owned it.

The I.A.B. and the Pedretti & Sons sound as tho they are the same junk. But comparing them to a Pedersoli isn't possible.

 

Regards,

Knarley

[Lunger]

Sounds like a horrible experience with pedretti and sons, and I don't doubt what you're saying about your rifle or experience. Just always hearing how awful pedersoli rifles shoot compared to c sharps, and Shiloh, yet nobody can really say why. My old Quigley model beat a mess of Shiloh, and c sharps rifles. Sold it because it recoiled too hard with it's crescent stock, and a 535 postell. Currently running a 4590 c sharps with less recoil due to the stock design. This rifle won't group with the pedersoli,but is a close second. My wife has a 4065 that barely out shoots the Quigley, but only 600 and in. Her rifle came from c sharps, and we're happy with it. I think that someone willing to pay for a USA sharps, has probably researched the daylights outta things, and are willing to go to most any length to get the most out of it. There is far more to rifle accuracy than the quality of the barrel. Best barrel in the world won't group without a trued up action. Not even in modern benchrest. I'm sure pedersoli s cnc equipment is just as accurate as Shilohs.

[Three Foot Johnson]

I only have one US made Sharps, a Shiloh, and three Italian jobs. One of the Italians, in .45-70, will consistently outshoot the Shiloh. The other two, another .45-70, and a .45-120, I haven't shot enough to work up an ideal load for yet.

[Bailey Creek,5759]

If you ever want to sell them an American Sharps, it will bring more money than an Italian sharps.

[John Boy]

Bob, I.A.B acronym is - It's Always Broken

 

Anyway, the safe of mine has 2 Pedersoli 74 Sharp's. A 45-70 and a 45-90. Have shot several thousand BP reloads out of them from 100 to 1000yds. Have targets showing that with the correct reload - the spirit level at dead center - a good set of eyes and Mother Nature being kind ... both rifles are accurate from 100 to 1000yds

 

Though I have MVA - Baldwin and Shaver verniers on other rifles, both Pedersoli's have Pedersoli Soule verniers which I have had zero issues with

[Blackey Cole]

I buy gun to shoot not to sale.

[Knarley Bob]

If you ever want to sell them an American Sharps, it will bring more money than an Italian sharps.

I would hope so, they cost 2 to 3 times as much to begin with.

[Sandhills Writer #35598]

Mike Venterino (sp) states in his black powder cartridge rifle book that he has a Pedersoli that shots just as well as his Shillos. I have two Shilos and four Pedersolis. All shoot well, I cannot tell the difference between the two brands. The wood work on the Shilos is better than the Pederoli, but other than that, they shoot the same.

[Utah Bob #35998]

It all comes down to the rifleman.

[Nate Kiowa Jones #6765]

Not trying to open a can of worms ,,,,,,,,, but,,, are the Ital. Sharps competitive with the Amer. Sharps ?? With all things being equal,; shooters ability, load, caliber, weather, etc.. Say from 300-1000 yds.. I read Black Powder Cartridge mag. and you might see an Ital. Sharps in the top somewhere. But usually if it's a Sharps, it's an Amer. Sharps. Is it because the name "Sharps" is American like Winchester, Colt, Remington, Jack Daniels, Budweiser and apple pie ,, or what ??? Like ,I said ,,, no can opening ,,, just curious. Really ! I posted this question on another site but haven't gotten any replies. No, it wasn't any of the Amer. or Ital. Sharps sites.

Thanks,

Isom

 

In any competition the folks at the top always have the best equipment they can afford. fFor the BPCR game the majority are using the high end guns. If you aren't planning on competing at that level the Pedersoli is probably all you will ever need. After all most all guns will out shoot the average shooter.

 

As they say in auto racing, "how fast you want to go is directly proportional to how much you spend"

 

It all comes down to the rifleman.

UB,

The trigger puller is only one third of the equation. Just like auto racing the car has to be setup for the course and it has to have the right fuel. Only then can the third part, the nut behind the wheel do his part.

Same with guns. It has to be the best setup for the course of fire and the ammo has to be the most appropriate for the task.

[irish ike, SASS #43615]

Money can't fix the shooter. Unfortunately one manufacturer from Italy has influenced peoples opinions about their products. The question was about all Italian rifles which brought up the experiences with one manufacturer. I hadn't even heard of that company. Like others mentioned here my Pedersoli will outshoot any other single shot rifle if the shooter does their job. And yes we shoot out to 1,000 yd's.

 

Just like money and a good team couldn't get Kyle Petty to win!

Ike

[Snakebite]

 

In any competition the folks at the top always have the best equipment they can afford. fFor the BPCR game the majority are using the high end guns. If you aren't planning on competing at that level the Pedersoli is probably all you will ever need. After all most all guns will out shoot the average shooter.

 

+1

[Conestoga Smith, SASS #18219]

Johnny Dollar; like that '75! Have one of those, looks like the same Mid Range sight- which is plenty for me. I DO have a Pedersoli Rolling Block- was my 1st 45-70, bought it for a good price, shoots well. LOVE my '75, though.

[Ruff Kut]

Just my 2 bits worth. By all accounts the Italian jobs have improved their barrel quality quite a bit. I believe their price tag has went up accordingly.

 

I have not heard anything to indicate the internals have improved. The fit, finish, and quality of every piece in a Shiloh is outstanding.

 

Reliability and customer service are factors for me as well as accuracy. You simply do not beat Shiloh's service.

 

Shiloh 1874, #3, .45 - 2 7/8

[Yellowhouse Sam # 25171]

Just my 2 bits worth. By all accounts the Italian jobs have improved their barrel quality quite a bit. I believe their price tag has went up accordingly.

 

I have not heard anything to indicate the internals have improved. The fit, finish, and quality of every piece in a Shiloh is outstanding.

 

Reliability and customer service are factors for me as well as accuracy. You simply do not beat Shiloh's service.

 

Shiloh 1874, #3, .45 - 2 7/8

Pedi prices are on a par or exceed base Shiloh now. Another factor is that pretty much any original Sharps caliber is available and some that aren't. I wanted the caliber most associated with Buffalo Hunters early on so my choices were 50-70, 44-90, and 44-77. The Italians make the former but you're out of luck if you want a 44.

[Marshal TKD, Sass # 36984L]

Ok, so all this talk about fit and finish and barrels. How about somebody answer the question how does it shoot? Who cares if you can hit a 4 ft target at 400 yards or a 12 inch target at 100 yards. How does the rifle shoot? What kind of groups does it shoot? What is your MOA at 100 yards does it carry to 200 or 300?

[Lunger]

Marshal, that pedersoli 4570 would reliably shoot 6 t0 7 inch groups at 516 yards, and it'd do it in heavy wind also. It really blows here on the farm most of the time. I do most of my load tuning at 516, because that's where the field ends from my garage door. My c sharps will shoot pretty good at that distance also, but not as reliably as the pedersoli did. My wife's c sharps 4065 will run straight with it, until you really get out there, past 600 or so.

[Knarley Bob]

When it boils down to "Fit & Finish" and how well they hold value. They must be pretty much be shooting neck & neck. Even at just 200 yards, with every thing going good, for me to HOLD MOA is tuff!

Keeping them in one quadrant of a paper plate @ 200 is a fine days work for me. I've never had the opportunity to shoot farther at this point, but @ 1000, I hope we are shooting at a dump truck, just so I can see it!!

 

Knarley