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Snakebite

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+1 on Snakebite's comments. This was one of the best matches I have ever been to and yes, sights were required :-).

 

There were some stages that were SASS minimums and a few that were a bit closer. The entire match was shootable and while I didn't shoot well, it wasn't because of target placement or scenarios.

 

Whiskey Kid, I did not hear a single comment during or after the match that the targets were too far away. My posse had the whole gamete from newer shooters to very experienced shooters. Could the match been more fun, as far as I could see, everyone was having a blast. If it wasn't fun, you weren't shooting.

 

The whole Winter Range crew deserves a big thank you for their effort in making the Silver Jubilee a memorable occasion.

+10 kR

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Congrats to Sass Kicker, Cody James and all the category winners. I agree 100% w/Lou Graham. The National Championship should be a shooters match and this one was. We had the pleasure of shooting w/Pecos Nick and he exemplified what a great shooter does. He stayed w/in his game & assessed each stage for what it was & shot it accordingly. Great job on the stages, target placement, props, shooters choice, amt of movement, etc. I think this match was exactly what a national championship should be. We had alot of fun & appreciate all the hard work that was put into it. The shooters gifts this year were great looking range bags. A big shout out to Sly Puppy for all the hard work she put into this match, it was fun shooting with you too. Posse 2 rocked & we had a great posse marshall in Pecos Clyde who kept things moving right along.

Roper & Schwaby

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TwoSpurs, my apology for offending you.I assure you it was not my intention. Target placement has long been a controversial topic. I thought the targets were a good mix, accomdating both the high speed operator game and the slower more deliberat shooter's game.

 

Thanks but no PC apology needed Snakebite, as I don't wear my feelings on my sleeve. I will say this- Whiskey Kid (and CC both) were simply pointing out a fact. When folks on the Wire can't voice a fact (accompanied by a civil personal opinion) without getting their words twisted and hacked at because some don't agree with him, I gotta call BS on it. While he (like everyone else) has an opinion, he did not trash talk WR. Your opinion is of no more clout or legitimate than his. They are both simply opinions. Respect that.

 

I would however, wonder about "...accommodating both the high speed operator game and the slower more deliberate shooter's game." With only 40 clean shooters it would seem that those desires didn't get fulfilled as hoped for the "slower more deliberate" who wanted a clean match. I'm sure someone can weigh that one out...

 

Again, I myself had a fantastic time. I was challenged yes- and finished fairly well I do believe. Spent lots of money with the vendors and got to see some old friends. Got no complaints what-so-ever. A big "thanks" to those who worked so hard in putting this on.

 

Hope to come back next year. ;)

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Heck Two Spurs my two misses, both pistol, were on the close up targets. I am pretty sure they jumped out of the way though....so as one of the not clean shooters I cant say it was because of target distance but rather operator error. ;)

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Heck Two Spurs my two misses, both pistol, were on the close up targets. I am pretty sure they jumped out of the way though....so as one of the not clean shooters I cant say it was because of target distance but rather operator error. ;)

 

Absolutely Renegade Roper! The targets don't move and the bullets don't veer off course! (Of course they're not supposed to.... :lol: )

 

Let's look at the glass half FULL... It sounds like you are pushing yourself toward better times. That's cool! How great to continue to push one's self in life to get better- regardless of age or circumstance?! Physically AND mentally.

 

My miss was on an over head high and about 10 yd pistol target and I'm the proud owner of that one! :D I like to think about it this way: Some folks are comfortable driving mostly little two-door or four-door sedans. Some big pickup trucks, some luxury cars, some hot rods, others high performance road racers. Those folks can all drive but to drive another person's vehicle can be easier for some than others. Doesn't mean they can't get down the road- only that the trip can be very different. Preferences.

 

Maybe a goofy analogy but the point is that it's easier for the top shooters to do the more difficult stages (still coming out on top) than those who want nothing more than a clean match (also great) to shoot a hard arrangement and succeed. Levels of "fun" will vary for each of course. I guarantee you there were more than 40 folks who really wanted a clean match over rank placement. The target arrangement (which I personally liked the extra challenge of) seemed kind of tough on that.

 

Our preferences may be different, but they are equally as fun to each of us. Some like to push the envelope, others not so much. Lots of facets to this diamond. Easier on some than others.

 

Enjoy! :D

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A true champion adjusts to the difference in stages no matter where the targets are placed. I wasn't able to shoot, due to health reasons, but would have loved to shoot

the stages set for you at Winter Range 25.

Johnny M.

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I got to meet Grizzly Dave

A really nice guy

 

Billy the Avenger

 

Billy - it was a pleasure to meet you as well. Sorry if I was a bit ditzy, I don't do well in the heat :D

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I walked off stages 11 and 12.. I did not guess

Stage 11 Pistol targets were at 7 yards for the front and 8 yards for the back as measured with a tape measure. Stage 12 Pistol targets were 8 yards and nine yards, again as measured with a tape measure. You may need to recheck your pace (especially if you do any orienteering). Additionally those targets were 18 to 22 inch targets.

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A true champion adjusts to the difference in stages no matter where the targets are placed. I wasn't able to shoot, due to health reasons, but would have loved to shoot

the stages set for you at Winter Range 25.

Johnny M.

Very well said JM.I cannot say enough about how hard bjz and his crew worked to try and make this enjoyable for all. I am not a top shooter but IMO the stages were designed very well as not to confusing and variety. Personally feel this is best setup I have seen in my short 3 years at wr. Thanks to all for shooting and huge thanks to winter range board for the amount of time spent on this match. Again hats off to bjz and nine toe for the work and everyone else who helped.YEEHAW.
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Made it home a little bit ago and starting to get all the vids over to my computer for editing and uploading.

 

I think I have the whole awards show from start to finish though at least one camera filled up and I'm not sure if another covered it until I noticed. We'll see, I did have three cameras on it, two full time and one getting short clips until I noticed one of the primary full time cams had shut down.

 

My thought is to make separate vids for each category that include both men's and ladies for that category, that way folks don't have to sit through the whole long video to find what they want. Plus that might, maybe be easier to edit, still not sure about that.

 

All shooter vids and hatcam vids will be up in the next couple of days, but the awards may take a while longer due to editing.

 

My hat's off to the entire WR crew for putting on an AWESOME match! Great mix of target sets and stages worthy of crowning national champs!

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Thanks but no PC apology needed Snakebite, as I don't wear my feelings on my sleeve. I will say this- Whiskey Kid (and CC both) were simply pointing out a fact. When folks on the Wire can't voice a fact (accompanied by a civil personal opinion) without getting their words twisted and hacked at because some don't agree with him, I gotta call BS on it. While he (like everyone else) has an opinion, he did not trash talk WR. Your opinion is of no more clout or legitimate than his. They are both simply opinions. Respect that.

 

I would however, wonder about "...accommodating both the high speed operator game and the slower more deliberate shooter's game." With only 40 clean shooters it would seem that those desires didn't get fulfilled as hoped for the "slower more deliberate" who wanted a clean match. I'm sure someone can weigh that one out...

 

Again, I myself had a fantastic time. I was challenged yes- and finished fairly well I do believe. Spent lots of money with the vendors and got to see some old friends. Got no complaints what-so-ever. A big "thanks" to those who worked so hard in putting this on.

 

Hope to come back next year. ;)

I drove down to visit friends shooting the match and was impressed with what I saw including the spacing of the targets, this was a huge undertaking for any group regardless of the number of volunteers, FANTASTIC JOB!

 

I highlighted one sentence above and underlined the important part. In my opinion, if a shooter WANTS a clean match then, dare I say... perhaps a little target practice might be in order. :o

 

Notice I said target practice NOT just going out and seeing what can be done to increase speed. I'm guessing that if one were to ask any of the top ranked shooters how they miss so little, their answers will likely be "We practice".

 

Nothing worse than shooters griping about their poor performances then blaming the range layout. Some wouldn't be happy if the targets were 3' square and 3' from the muzzle because they would STILL miss and need something to blame it on!!

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Just wondering about the Gun Cart Contest? Nothing listed. I enjoy the Costume Contest.

 

Congrats to ALL the Winter Range Winners.

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I see Joe beat me to it. Had trouble getting Photobucket to download a photo. After reading a couple of posts about target distances last night I pulled out the match construction handbook and the target distance numbers did not jive with the posts. First thing this morning Blackjack Zak, Joe and I went down to stages 11 and 12 to double check the target distances. As noted by Joe stage 11 was set at 7 and 8 yards and stage 12 was set at 8 and 9. Aside from the plate racks it is difficult to even find an eighteen inch plate in the Winter Range inventory. Most of the targets are 20 and 22 and there are several 24s. The targets on these stages were 22s. Most people find that hitting a 22 inch square at eight yards is easier than hitting a 12 inch square at six. Tonight we send out an electronic survey to all the shooters. Please fill these in. We DO read ALL the comments and we DO react to them. For those that have never been to Winter Range the match is the largest cowboy action shooting event in the world. It did not become the most popular match in the world by having difficult to understand stages or hard to hit targets. Thanks to everyone that attended, we are already working on 2017.

 

P1030504_zps1ivpyq93.jpg

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I see Joe beat me to it. Had trouble getting Photobucket to download a photo. After reading a couple of posts about target distances last night I pulled out the match construction handbook and the target distance numbers did not jive with the posts. First thing this morning Blackjack Zak, Joe and I went down to stages 11 and 12 to double check the target distances. As noted by Joe stage 11 was set at 7 and 8 yards and stage 12 was set at 8 and 9. Aside from the plate racks it is difficult to even find an eighteen inch plate in the Winter Range inventory. Most of the targets are 20 and 22 and there are several 24s. The targets on these stages were 22s. Most people find that hitting a 22 inch square at eight yards is easier than hitting a 12 inch square at six. Tonight we send out an electronic survey to all the shooters. Please fill these in. We DO read ALL the comments and we DO react to them. For those that have never been to Winter Range the match is the largest cowboy action shooting event in the world. It did not become the most popular match in the world by having difficult to understand stages or hard to hit targets. Thanks to everyone that attended, we are already working on 2017.

 

 

Oh, I'll certainly be filling out the survey!

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Just got home from Winter Range and would like to thank the Rough Rider crew for putting on a great shoot. Had a train wreck on the first stage and a total of 3 misses for the match, but I had a great time and that's what counts. The stages were fun and straight forward, no P traps. Food was outstanding and there were enough vendors to keep everyone happy (and broke). Weather was perfect, sunny and 80's everyday. Had the pleasure to posse with some great shooters including the legendary Duece Stevens, Doc noper, Blackjack Zak and best of all, the lovely Misty Moonshine. Again, thanks to the Rougn Riders and all the men and women who worked so hard to put together a great shoot. And lastly, congratulations to all the winners.

 

Irish Tom.

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Just wondering about the Gun Cart Contest? Nothing listed. I enjoy the Costume Contest.

 

Congrats to ALL the Winter Range Winners.

We don't have a category for gun carts anymore.

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.

.......

 

Nothing worse than shooters griping about their poor performances then blaming the range layout. Some wouldn't be happy if the targets were 3' square and 3' from the muzzle because they would STILL miss and need something to blame it on!!

 

I agree with you Mr. George. ;) I'm happy to have had only 1 miss and considered it a great performance for me. ^_^, (...but maybe you missed that part...)

 

An for the record, who in this thread was gripping about poor performances and blaming it on the range layout? I didn't catch that one.

 

I will repeat and be done: "Again, I myself had a fantastic time. I was challenged yes- and finished fairly well I do believe. Spent lots of money with the vendors and got to see some old friends. Got no complaints what-so-ever. A big "thanks" to those who worked so hard in putting this on.

 

Hope to come back next year. ;)"

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An for the record, who in this thread was gripping about poor performances and blaming it on the range layout? I didn't catch that one.

In my mind, the distance the targets are set at IS the range layout. That's all!

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Hello to All!

 

Firstly I would like to again thank all of you who came, in some cases a very long way, to shoot our match! We all work very hard to make sure that you have a good time. You honored us by attending.....thank you!

 

I want to address some of the comments from a few of our shooters who felt that the target distances were somewhat farther out than they wanted to see. The fact is that target distances at WR have not changed......we maintain a mix of about 25% close in, 50% medium ranges and 25% a little farther out. This formula seems to work well for the vast majority of our shooters.

 

I write the stages and set the steel, with the help of my very fine crew. The buck, I can say, stops with me. My belief, and I know the it is the belief of the vast majority of shooters (including the Match Directors of EOT, and two the larger Divisionals), is that the National Championship (or any other large championship) should be a test of a shooters skill in all aspects of shooting. It should not only be a test of "how fast you operate or cycle your firearms", but a test of all shooting skills - targets in close - yes indeed, targets out a bit farther - yes indeed, and of course aerial targets, knockdowns and maybe moving targets. You may even have to think,just a little bit, when you shoot the Nationals....... :D This will never be a "Bordertown" match......we have Bordertown and other matches for that.

 

I too love to "spray and pray" at close and big targets, but Winter Range is a National Championship match, and will always be a test of the wider variety of a shooter's skills. We set 4 stages with revolver targets as close as 3.5 - 4.5 yards, and some at 7-8 yards. A top shooter will be able to address those situations without difficultly. Folks......our smallest target on the range is 18" (most are 22" and 24")......and when set at 7 yards, may just require to actually use your sights for a brief second. At the Nationals this is not an unreasonable standard.

 

I also believe this issue to be one of "perception". The fact is that some clubs across the country are moving their targets in very close, and of course this is fun for most. However, this in turn gives the incorrect impression that we have "moved ours out"......this is simply not the case. As I said earlier, our target distances have NOT changed, but shooters have become used to targets that are all in close, perhaps without variation / variety. Our formula has not changed, and yet we continue have sell out crowds......

 

I hope this post has given those of you who believe that we should all be shooting 2-3 yard revolver targets some perspective on what a National Championship should, and will continue, to be.

 

Warmest regards.....

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It would have been great to see the fastest shooter(Cody James) and the fastest Lady (Sass Kicker) shoot their matches.Cody also shot it clean.Great job to all that got to go to WR.MAYBE SOMEDAY.

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It would have been great to see the fastest shooter(Cody James) and the fastest Lady (Sass Kicker) shoot their matches.Cody also shot it clean.Great job to all that got to go to WR.MAYBE SOMEDAY.

 

I was lucky enough to be on the posse right next to them and was able to catch a couple of their stages. Those two young shooters are simply incredible. Smooth doesn't begin to describe them. Their transitions were flawless and they moved from one shooting position to another as if they were gliding on ice.

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Hello to All!

 

Firstly I would like to again thank all of you who came, in some cases a very long way, to shoot our match! We all work very hard to make sure that you have a good time. You honored us by attending.....thank you!

 

I want to address some of the comments from a few of our shooters who felt that the target distances were somewhat farther out than they wanted to see. The fact is that target distances at WR have not changed......we maintain a mix of about 25% close in, 50% medium ranges and 25% a little farther out. This formula seems to work well for the vast majority of our shooters.

 

I write the stages and set the steel, with the help of my very fine crew. The buck, I can say, stops with me. My belief, and I know the it is the belief of the vast majority of shooters (including the Match Directors of EOT, and two the larger Divisionals), is that the National Championship (or any other large championship) should be a test of a shooters skill in all aspects of shooting. It should not only be a test of "how fast you operate or cycle your firearms", but a test of all shooting skills - targets in close - yes indeed, targets out a bit farther - yes indeed, and of course aerial targets, knockdowns and maybe moving targets. You may even have to think,just a little bit, when you shoot the Nationals....... :D This will never be a "Bordertown" match......we have Bordertown and other matches for that.

 

I too love to "spray and pray" at close and big targets, but Winter Range is a National Championship match, and will always be a test of the wider variety of a shooter's skills. We set 4 stages with revolver targets as close as 3.5 - 4.5 yards, and some at 7-8 yards. A top shooter will be able to address those situations without difficultly. Folks......our smallest target on the range is 18" (most are 22" and 24")......and when set at 7 yards, may just require to actually use your sights for a brief second. At the Nationals this is not an unreasonable standard.

 

I also believe this issue to be one of "perception". The fact is that some clubs across the country are moving their targets in very close, and of course this is fun for most. However, this in turn gives the incorrect impression that we have "moved ours out"......this is simply not the case. As I said earlier, our target distances have NOT changed, but shooters have become used to targets that are all in close, perhaps without variation / variety. Our formula has not changed, and yet we continue have sell out crowds......

 

I hope this post has given those of you who believe that we should all be shooting 2-3 yard revolver targets some perspective on what a National Championship should, and will continue, to be.

 

Warmest regards.....

I didn't get the opportunity to come, but I will someday when work cooperates, but this deserves a +10000! I am far from a top shooter, but when I come to nationals, I expect to be pushed, and not just come to a club match with more stages

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I was lucky enough to be on the posse right next to them and was able to catch a couple of their stages. Those two young shooters are simply incredible. Smooth doesn't begin to describe them. Their transitions were flawless and they moved from one shooting position to another as if they were gliding on ice.

 

You mean like this?

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Thanks Black Jack. It was a GREAT match, and I love the 25,50,25 mix. Think I will follow you lead.

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This was a remarkable match. I appreciate all the hard work and countless hours the crew at Winter Range gives so we can feel

special from registration to closing. The match was perfect. The stages were a blast and well-thought-out. We cannot wait till next year.

Congratulations to the shooters and workers for making our National Championship such an incredible experience. See you at the next shoot.

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Zak, we may not agree on everything but this match like I said to in person was an outstanding match you and everyone else involved deserve a vacation and a raise. I wish I was still able to assist in setting it up but as you saw I'm doing good just to walk right now. I agree with your statements that divisional sand above should be about all shooting skills not just how fast you can manipulate your guns and hit the targets. As I recall there were two or three stages had unique sweeps, one had an aerial target, one had tombstone and regular plate racks, I don't recall a moving target as that was something I had thought of earlier. I wish I would have finish photographing the stages from a full view if possible a couple took two shots to get without going back to the spectator area then from each shooting position. But I kept forgetting my camera at the vendors booth. I did shoot four stages like I wanted. I really like the years where you showed the stages to those who couldn't make it by having them in the photo section. My first miss was my own fault because I walked up to the line changed how I was going to shoot it and on the second shot of the stage got a P and was thinking about it and either the third or forth shot was a miss then on the last day first stage I didn't get my head down on the rifle and missed two shots. But oddly enough the stages that required thought I shot clean it was the ones that didn't that got me. I knew my times were gonna be slower than my times at EOT because of the width of your stages and me not moving well. But I enjoyed it just the same. I thought about quitting after the stage on the second day where I missed and got a p but I was taught better than that when I started shooting sass I was given a educational talk by two top shooters at the time that has stuck with me and finishing the match with your posse weather your shooting or are disqualified is good ediqute and I'm glad I did I had fun once the money was gone. I hope you get match of the year again this year between the gifts every shooter received for showing up , the stages, the entertainment and the awards you and the WR crew deserve it and the shooters thanks. If someone bad mouths this match it goes to prove some people just can't be satisfied.

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Hello to All!

 

Firstly I would like to again thank all of you who came, in some cases a very long way, to shoot our match! We all work very hard to make sure that you have a good time. You honored us by attending.....thank you!

 

I want to address some of the comments from a few of our shooters who felt that the target distances were somewhat farther out than they wanted to see. The fact is that target distances at WR have not changed......we maintain a mix of about 25% close in, 50% medium ranges and 25% a little farther out. This formula seems to work well for the vast majority of our shooters.

 

I write the stages and set the steel, with the help of my very fine crew. The buck, I can say, stops with me. My belief, and I know the it is the belief of the vast majority of shooters (including the Match Directors of EOT, and two the larger Divisionals), is that the National Championship (or any other large championship) should be a test of a shooters skill in all aspects of shooting. It should not only be a test of "how fast you operate or cycle your firearms", but a test of all shooting skills - targets in close - yes indeed, targets out a bit farther - yes indeed, and of course aerial targets, knockdowns and maybe moving targets. You may even have to think,just a little bit, when you shoot the Nationals....... :D This will never be a "Bordertown" match......we have Bordertown and other matches for that.

 

I too love to "spray and pray" at close and big targets, but Winter Range is a National Championship match, and will always be a test of the wider variety of a shooter's skills. We set 4 stages with revolver targets as close as 3.5 - 4.5 yards, and some at 7-8 yards. A top shooter will be able to address those situations without difficultly. Folks......our smallest target on the range is 18" (most are 22" and 24")......and when set at 7 yards, may just require to actually use your sights for a brief second. At the Nationals this is not an unreasonable standard.

 

I also believe this issue to be one of "perception". The fact is that some clubs across the country are moving their targets in very close, and of course this is fun for most. However, this in turn gives the incorrect impression that we have "moved ours out"......this is simply not the case. As I said earlier, our target distances have NOT changed, but shooters have become used to targets that are all in close, perhaps without variation / variety. Our formula has not changed, and yet we continue have sell out crowds......

 

I hope this post has given those of you who believe that we should all be shooting 2-3 yard revolver targets some perspective on what a National Championship should, and will continue, to be.

 

Warmest regards.....

BJZ

Told you this as I was coming off the line the last day do shooting. GREAT match and I really enjoyed the variety in the stages!

 

Although I had 7 misses (all revolver and all my fault) I still managed to somehow place 10th in my class and take home a buckle. That's why you should never give up, cause you never know how others in your class are doing. Had a blast this year and hope to be back next year. Keep your mix of targets on the stages.

Scout

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...

.........I write the stages and set the steel, with the help of my very fine crew. The buck, I can say, stops with me. My belief, and I know the it is the belief of the vast majority of shooters (including the Match Directors of EOT, and two the larger Divisionals), is that the National Championship (or any other large championship) should be a test of a shooters skill in all aspects of shooting. It should not only be a test of "how fast you operate or cycle your firearms", but a test of all shooting skills - targets in close - yes indeed, targets out a bit farther - yes indeed, and of course aerial targets, knockdowns and maybe moving targets. You may even have to think,just a little bit, when you shoot the Nationals....... :D This will never be a "Bordertown" match......we have Bordertown and other matches for that.

 

 

Probably the finest description of what a national match should be, well written and thank GOD there are still folks such as yourself who think marksmanship is a good skill one should strive to master! I was unable to shoot this year's match but did drive down to visit those in my club who were shooting and they all had a ball.

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My hat is off to the entire WR crew. I believe the target placement and sweeps were fantastic. I really enjoy Bordertown. However, the variety at WR really challenged the shooters and made a lot of sense for the National Championship.

 

I am looking forward to returning to WR next year and will be pleased if the stages are done as well as they were this year.

 

NN

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Read this topic with a lot of interest. I enjoyed the match and huge kudos to all who put it on and made it happen. It is the reason that I tell people that, if you can only do one, this is the one major match you should go to. (EOT is number 2, but a close number 2).

 

I remembered from previous years that the WR shotgun targets seemed to be farther out, but I had forgotten, until I got there, that pistol and rifle targets can be more challenging than I have seen in some matches. Ironically, the one (true) pistol miss that I had (had 2 more when pistol round primers did not go off despite deep strikes) was on a close in target. I hit all the harder stuff.

 

What I took away from the match, and that this string emphasizes, is that if we want our local shooters to be ready for a big match like Winter Range, we will need to offer a variety of stages where targets are low and high, close and far, with lots of different options for how you shoot the stage. In our local matches we strive for lots of clean shooters, and we find that people have more fun and come back more often when they can hit the target. We will need to see if we can balance this desire with the desire to provide a representative sample of what folks might see at Winter Range. I think they can be compatible, especially with larger targets like those they used at WR.

 

Once again--I had a blast, even if I couldn't remember how to alternate on the blue targets on Stage 1. Already on my calendar for next year.

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