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Uberti Cattleman - trigger is too light!


Nahiossi

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This may sound a bit strange but I reckon that the triggers in both of my Uberi Cattlemen are too light!

 

I obtained them second hand so don't know if they are using the the original parts or if they have been modified (I am assuming that they have). Needless to say I have to be very conscious of keeping my finger off the trigger until I am absolutely on target. This is fine when I am dry firing and practicing at home, but am more concerned for when I turn up at the range to shoot a match.

 

So the question is, what can I do to make the trigger heavier? Is there a parts kit that someone with no experience can install or does this need to be assessed by a proper gunsmith?

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That's why I really cringe when buying guns advertised as having an "action job".

I'd bet your sear is worn or cut at the wrong angle, I don't think it's a worn or light spring

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There are several causes for a trigger being too light. The Trigger/Bolt spring can be too light, or a miss-fit. The trigger sear may be finished at the wrong angle. The full cock ledge on the hammer may be at the wrong angle.

 

Based on your questions, you probably need a gunsmith familiar with Single Action handguns.

 

Coffinmaker

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Lots of YouTube videos on Colt/clone disassembly. Here is one but I cringe when I see the guy using one screwdriver to take the gun apart. He slips often.

 

 

Make sure you have a quality set of gunsmith screwdrivers.

 

Notes, the bottom back strap screw is different than the two that go beside the hammer. The front trigger guard screw is different than the back two.

 

handspring.jpg

 

The Uberti Cattleman has a coil spring with plunger that pushes against the "hand" or "paw". The spring and plunger is about the size of a grain of rice. They are topped with a set screw about the size of a mustard seed. When you take the back strap off, you'll see two screw holes on the left side if the hammer. One is for the back strap, the other is for the hand spring and plunger. Best to ease that set screw out and remove the spring and plunger before getting into the guts of the gun. They are tiny and easy to lose and about impossible to get back in. I hate that so called design improvement.

 

http://www.gunblast.com/JimTaylor_Uberti.htm

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Just in case

 

I have seen atleast one Uberti SSA clone that did not have a separate set screw and associated hole for the coil spring and plunger that pushes against the hand/pawl.

 

The left hand screw that holds on the backstrap is drilled through and the coil spring and plunger that push against the hand are inserted into that same hole.

 

Pay special attention when removing the back strap screws that there is not another one of these odd ducks out there. In my case each screw that holds on the backstrap is different.

 

When reassembling you have to ensure the spring and plunger are inserted correctly or the firearm will not work. Took me a few tries to get it right.

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Just in case

 

I have seen atleast one Uberti SSA clone that did not have a separate set screw and associated hole for the coil spring and plunger that pushes against the hand/pawl.

 

The left hand screw that holds on the backstrap is drilled through and the coil spring and plunger that push against the hand are inserted into that same hole.

 

Pay special attention when removing the back strap screws that there is not another one of these odd ducks out there. In my case each screw that holds on the backstrap is different.

 

When reassembling you have to ensure the spring and plunger are inserted correctly or the firearm will not work. Took me a few tries to get it right.

 

Yeah, I've got an older Model P with the hand spring in the backstrap screw hole. Uberti made them that way for a while. I was once told why that isn't the best way to do it but can't remember the details. Mine works fine.

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Yeah, I've got an older Model P with the hand spring in the backstrap screw hole. Uberti made them that way for a while. I was once told why that isn't the best way to do it but can't remember the details. Mine works fine.

It's because if you drill the hole through the backstrap screw hole the plunger is barely hitting the edge of the hand. By moving the hole over it centers the plunger on the back of the hand.

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Abilene,

It was/is thought, with the spring and plunger being on the same axis as the grip frame screw, it is not centered on the hand. Asymmetrical thrust of the plunger on the hand, might cause the hand to twist and bind in its channel as well as causing its pivot pin to bind in the hammer.

No.

Really.

 

Coffinmaker

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Howdy

 

Do you have access to a trigger pull gauge? Do you have any idea what the trigger pull is now? For a point of reference, I like a trigger pull of about 2 1/2 pounds when the hammer falls. You can actually use a digital fishing scale to help you determine what the trigger pull is. If your trigger pull is less than 2 1/2 pounds, that is pretty light. On the other hand, if you are used to a 5 pound trigger pull, you may think that 2 1/2 pounds is too light.

 

If the trigger pull is really light, less than 1 pound, make sure the gun is unloaded. Cock the hammer and keep your finger off the trigger. Then push forward on the hammer with your thumb. Give it a good hard push. If the hammer falls, there is a problem with the parts and you should take the gun to a gunsmith who is familiar with single action revolvers.

 

If the hammer does not fall, you can look into whether or not the springs have been lightened.

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Here is another disassembly video. This one on a Uberti that shows the hand spring/plunger removal and how small the parts are.

 

A good source for gunsmith screwdrivers and parts are MidwayUSA and Brownells. I general assortment would likely include all the screwdrivers you would need but they do offer sets specifically for some guns. Here is a set specific to Colt SAA (and clones).

 

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/186963/grace-usa-3-piece-gunsmith-screwdriver-set-colt-single-action-army

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Nahiossi.. The trigger spring - which also puts pressure on the bolt (the part that locks the cylinder in place) has been manufactured in two styles: blade and wire. The original Colt SA versions had a blade spring with two fingers - one pressing on the bolt the other on the trigger. The newer "lighter" springs are a round-wire spring that does the same job. The spring is found under the lower grip. You have to remove the backstrap first (three screws). As shown in Warden Callaway's photo, your Uberti should have a set screw just above the upper left side backstrap screw (although some models Uberti makes for other brands do not have the set screw), so nothing should fall out. In either case, leave it in place. Loosen the hammer spring screw and remove the hammer spring. Then remove the three bottom screws on the bottom strap (in front of and behind the trigger guard and remove the bottom strap (no parts will fall out. (Note that the front bottom strap screw, and the bottom backstrap screw are shorter and have a flatter head than the others.) The trigger/hand spring becomes obvious and it is held in by one screw. Examine how much pressure the trigger side of the spring (the longer part) is placing on the trigger. If if seems like it is not even touching the trigger, that could be your problem. If it is a wire-type spring, remove the screw that holds it place and you can bend the spring a bit so that it contacts the trigger notch. Ideally, the spring should be in contact with the trigger prior to the last FULL turn of the screw that holds it in place. (If it is a blade-type spring, you can try to bend it, but if you're not familiar with how to bend blade springs, it's best to leave that to a smith - blade springs can be both fickle and brittle.) Other folks here have addressed how to check if the notch in your hammer - where the trigger engages - might be worn. Difficult to tell from your question if you are experiencing a light trigger spring or worn mating of trigger and hammer. Good luck… RR

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If I had a "dead" spring that I could bend back into shape, it'd replace it. Dead is dead.

 

Taylors and Complany has parts and parts kits. And specific parts.

 

http://www.taylorsfirearms.com/accessories/parts/parts-kits/uberti-parts-kits.html

 

Parts are generally easy to come by - MidwayUSA and Brownells has them as well as many other cowboy stores. Wolff makes "reduced power" springs. Generally, Colt and other Colt clone parts will interchange.

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I bought a new Cattleman last year and thought the trigger was too light out of the box. I sold it.

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We've bought 4 new Cattleman revolvers in past couple of years and the trigger pulls were as light as I'd want. I had one factory trigger/bolt spring go soft on one of mine and replaced hammer and trigger/bolt springs with Wolff reduced power springs on both guns. I just replaced the hammer springs on Mary's pair as she didn't want the triggers even lighter.

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Howdy Again

 

Something else occurred to me. It is possible you have a broken trigger/bolt spring. This is a photo of a broken Colt trigger/bolt spring. The broken half is the part that returns the trigger. This is a part that is known to fail frequently in the Colt design. However, sometimes the leg of the spring does not break off completely. Instead, what can happen is a crack propagates across the leg but the part does not separate completely. In this situation, the spring looses most of its resilience, barely providing any spring force to the trigger. This can be the culprit with a very light trigger pull. Usually when this is the case, the spring will break completely as you try to remove it. Replacement with a new spring is then necessary.

 

 

broken%20bolt_zpstrr4xbao.jpg

 

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What's suspicious the light trigger pull is with both guns. The odds that both would have the same problem and not be completely broke is slim. My guess is they've been slicked to excess.

 

It would help if the original poster would reply with what he's figured out.

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Unfortunately, I didn't have time last night to take the pistols apart but will do this on the weekend. I will also be able to use the club's trigger gauge to measure the triggers.

 

The guns were obtained in different private sales so Warden maybe right with his theory about them being slicked exessively. Driftwood Johnson recommended a test to see if the hammer could be pushed to release and I can confirm that this occurs with one of the cattlemen.

 

I will know more after the weekend and will report back on what I find out but at this time, I think it would be prudent to get them checked over by a gunsmith. Better to do this while I am waiting for my holsters to arrive so that are no further delays in getting into my first actual match :)

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The guns were obtained in different private sales so Warden maybe right with his theory about them being slicked exessively. Driftwood Johnson recommended a test to see if the hammer could be pushed to release and I can confirm that this occurs with one of the cattlemen.

Howdy Again

 

If you can push the hammer and it drops without the trigger being pulled, it is UNSAFE! Do not try to fire it. Bring it to a qualified gunsmith to evaluate. Somebody screwed up a trigger job. I have encountered a few. Parts may need to be welded up and reshaped or new parts fitted. Not a job for a beginner.

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Another update. I snuck off to the shed tonight to do a bit more investigating. It turns out the pistol where the hammer dropped by pushing it, only drops the hammer back about halfway. Also this pistol had the lighter of the two triggers. Following the handy videos linked above, I took this pistol apart. First thing I found was that the trigger spring was a blade and not a wire. The other thing I discovered is that there was no soil spring, pluger or set screw pushing against the paw. Instead there was a small loose flat spring poking out near the bolt that fixes the hammer in place. And it looks like this spring is meant to attach to the paw but is broken. So this is defintely being sent to the gunsmith now!

 

Broken%20Uberti.JPG

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I don't know why you'd send it off now that you can take it apart and put it back together. You're as much a gunsmith as I see in the videos I posted.

 

MidwayUSA has that part for $5.50.

 

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/441342/uberti-leaf-style-hand-spring-1873-cattleman-revolver-carbine-stallion-quick-draw-buckhorn

 

The guns must be old and shot or dry fired to death. I'd get an estimate of cost to repair before committing to sending it to a gunsmith with no idea of cost. You could have more in them than trading up to new guns.

 

A friend had a Cattleman with a broken bolt trigger spring and left it with a local gunsmith. Got it back 6 months later and paid $75! It's a $6.00 part that takes 5 minutes to install.

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Another update. I snuck off to the shed tonight to do a bit more investigating. It turns out the pistol where the hammer dropped by pushing it, only drops the hammer back about halfway. Also this pistol had the lighter of the two triggers. Following the handy videos linked above, I took this pistol apart. First thing I found was that the trigger spring was a blade and not a wire. The other thing I discovered is that there was no soil spring, pluger or set screw pushing against the paw. Instead there was a small loose flat spring poking out near the bolt that fixes the hammer in place. And it looks like this spring is meant to attach to the paw but is broken. So this is defintely being sent to the gunsmith now!

 

Broken%20Uberti.JPG

Just curious what did the hammer look like , you may have more than one problem to address

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No laws here against doing your own repairs. As we have a smaller population and a lot of more controls in place around firearms (in particular handguns), finding what I need locally may be problematic. Generally we need to get special documents to import things like barrels, magazines etc. I dont know if that covers parts like a hand spring though. I'll have to read through the customs rules and see whats allowed.

 

One question. If I am able to get the replacement hand spring, do I need the hand pin, spring and set screw too? The first video shows the hand spring but not the other bits whilst the second video shows no hand spring.

 

PS. Thanks for all the advice here so far! It has been really really helpful!!

 

PPS. I'll throw up some more photos of the gun and trigger tomorrow too

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My Main match pistols are all at 1 3/4 pounds as to trigger pull which I find just RIGHT for ME ...

New folk might find this way to light, but they are safe and function as designed ... They have no

creep or over-travel and are really sweet, but are not for every-one, I have had a lot of trigger-time over the last 50 or so years ...

 

Jabez Cowboy

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Howdy

 

You have an example of the classic broken leaf style hand spring. Here is a photo of the interior parts of a 2nd Generation Colt.

 

interiorparts.jpg

 

 

 

Here is a closeup of the hand. Colt calls it a hand, not a pawl. Notice there is a slot in the hand and the spring is held tightly pinched in the slot.

 

hand_zps36a8a43e.jpg

 

 

 

 

You have three options regarding the broken hand spring. You can replace just the spring, you can replace the hand and spring as an assembly, or you can drill a hole in the frame for a coil spring and plunger.

 

The easiest option is to just replace the spring. If you replace the entire hand/spring assembly, the hand may not fit properly and may need to be fitted to your gun. Replacement parts often do not just drop right in without refitting.

 

To replace just the spring, you have to drive the broken part out. The easiest way to do this is to place the hand flat on a hard metal or hardwood block, with the broken part over a hole in the block. You lay the new spring in place over the slot. Then using a punch and small hammer you drive the new spring into the slot. The new spring will push the broken part of the old spring out.

 

 

 

******

 

 

Regarding your hammer which falls when shoved. If it falls halfway that means the hammer is falling and the sear is catching in the half cock notch. This is a classic sign of a botched trigger job. Somebody thought the easiest way to lighten the trigger pull was to file down the full cock notch on the hammer so the sear did not have to travel so far to exit the full cock notch.

 

The sear is the narrow tip of the top of the trigger that fits into the various cocking notches on the hammer. You can see from my photos that the notches for the half cock position and the so called 'safety cock' notch have an overhanging lip to prevent the trigger from being pulled when the hammer is cocked to these positions. Normally, when the trigger is pulled, the sear rotates far enough that the overhanging lips of the half cock notch and the safety cock notch will clear the sear as they rotated by. What the clown did who botched up your trigger job is to remove enough metal from the full cock notch so the sear no longer clears the lips of the notches, but is catching on them. Do this enough and something is going to break, either the sear or the overhanging lips. Trust me, I had to replace the hammer and trigger in a rifle that had the same problem.

 

Here is another test you can do. With the gun unloaded, put the hammer at full cock. Now rap the butt of the gun down hard on a solid, rigid surface, like the top of a work bench. Did the hammer fall? See why this condition is unsafe?

 

Frankly, I think you bought a couple of pigs in a poke. The hand spring is easy to fix, but if the hammer notches have been messed with, the hammer needs to either be welded up and reshaped, or replaced. I have a feeling there will not be anybody in your neck of the woods who can weld up and reshape a Colt style hammer. Replacement is pretty much your only option. And this may require some fitting of the parts.

 

I would buy both a hammer AND a trigger. Then I would try just replacing the hammer at first, with the original trigger, and see if everything works correctly. Try the hammer push and drop tests. If the hammer still falls, the sear on your original trigger may be messed up too. If so, replace the trigger too. You may get lucky and everything may drop in without needing any fitting.

 

By the way, if I am correct, replacing the hammer should go a long way to giving you the 'heavier' trigger pull you are looking for. You will be pulling the trigger further, which translates to more friction and a heavier trigger pull.

 

You should think about buying this book. It will tell you absolutely everything there is to know about gunsmithing a Colt or clone.

 

http://www.brownells.com/gunsmith-tools-supplies/books-amp-videos/books/handgun-gunsmithing-books/the-colt-single-action-revolvers-a-shop-manual-prod25724.aspx

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Holsters_zpsc09924d9.jpg

 

In have a second generation 1968 vintage Colt SAA and an early 1970s Cattleman that have been shot a lot (but not dry fired). The hand spring in the Cattleman is original. I've only known the Colt since 1970 but hasn't been replaced since then.

 

The only parts I've replaced on the Cattleman are the trigger- it was getting worn and rounded so I replaced it with a Colt part. And I had the tip of the firing pin break off. I cut the old tip off, selected a drill bit the size of the end of the firing pin and drilled a hole. Turned the bit around and soldered it in the hole. Cut to length and round off the sharp edge.

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I bought a new Cattleman last year and thought the trigger was too light out of the box. I sold it.

 

 

So YOU'RE the culprit! I shoulda known! :o:D

 

How was the last match with the Cavaliers? It was WAY too cold for me... :)

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More photos as promised!

 

First up is the rear of the frame. It seems that this firearm at one time either had the pin/coil spring to hold the hand in place or it was drilled and tapped to allow for it

 

rear.jpg

 

Secondly, a photo of the trigger and the hammer. There was evidence of some polishing or metal removal on the trigger but this isnt show in the photo, The hammer itself seems ok.

 

trigger%20hammer.jpg

 

 

I am going to order a flat hand spring, trigger spring, hammer and trigger as well as the other parts needed for the pin/coil spring.

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Good to hear. There is a reasonable chance you can reassemble with new parts and be in good shape. If you still need a gunsmith, you'll have the parts ready to go.

 

Make a YouTube vedeo and be an expert at rebuilding SAA!

 

Keep us updated.

Good to hear. There is a reasonable chance you can reassemble with new parts and be in good shape. If you still need a gunsmith, you'll have the parts ready to go.

 

Make a YouTube vedeo and be an expert at rebuilding SAA!

 

Keep us updated.

 

PS, When I order parts, I don't just order the parts I need. I generally get other miscellaneous small parts as well. Shipping is the big killer on these small parts so a few more small parts don't add up much to total. Better to have it and not need it than to need it and not have it.

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  • 3 weeks later...

Got my shipment from VTI today! Excitedly opened it up onl; to discover that of the four parts I ordered (hand spring, trigger spring, trigger and mainspring bolt), they forgot to send me the trigger :(

 

I have emailed them to follow up on it so I have a bit more waiting until I can start the repairs.

 

PS I decided not to get the other bits to fit the drilled and tapped hole as the flat pawl spring will work just fine.

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