Cholla Hill Tirador Posted January 30, 2016 Share Posted January 30, 2016 What exactly is the difference in the various standard reloading dies and "Cowboy" dies? I'm asking in regards to those for a 44-40. Thanks, Cholla Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Hombre Sin Nombre Posted January 30, 2016 Share Posted January 30, 2016 In all likelihood, nothing but the box. However, I have the 44-40 cowboy dies and the seem to work better for me than my other dies. Perhaps it's all in my head Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rye Miles #13621 Posted January 30, 2016 Share Posted January 30, 2016 In all likelihood, nothing but the box. However, I have the 44-40 cowboy dies and the seem to work better for me than my other dies. Perhaps it's all in my head I use 'em too and I think yer right!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warden Callaway Posted January 30, 2016 Share Posted January 30, 2016 I think it's the tolerance in the expanding die and maybe full-crimp die are better for cast lead bullets. I have a set for 32-20 and they work great. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Southpaw Gringo, SASS # 74217 Posted January 30, 2016 Share Posted January 30, 2016 I think its mostly the appearance and a slightly different shape of the seating stem to better match lead bullet noses. This is all I can see in a description. I load .45 Colt lead Cowboy ammo all the time with standard RCBS dies and it works just fine. Oh by the way, Cowboy dies will pull a little more money out of your wallet but what doesn't in this game right.. Seating Die Designed for Use with CAST BULLETS ONLY Built to slightly different dimensions than regular dies to allow optimum sizing, expanding, seating and crimping needed to load lead bullet ammo http://www.midwayusa.com/product/414634/rcbs-cowboy-3-die-set-44-40-wcf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trailrider #896 Posted January 30, 2016 Share Posted January 30, 2016 Not sure what the Cowboy dies do. I have used regular RCBS .44-40 dies for years, and am perfectly satisfied with them. I do have a .44 Magnum expander plug that I use because I normally use .429-.430 bullets, and the regular .44-40 plug is intended for use with .427-.428" bullets. By using two lock rings on each expander plug threads, I can quickly swap the plug without having to readjust them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Major Art Tillery Posted January 30, 2016 Share Posted January 30, 2016 In all likelihood, nothing but the box. However, I have the 44-40 cowboy dies and the seem to work better for me than my other dies. Perhaps it's all in my head. I am with you..same thing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cholla Hill Tirador Posted January 30, 2016 Author Share Posted January 30, 2016 Thanks for the help guys. I'm using an old set of Lachmiller dies and I'm certain they're designed for use with .427"-ish bullets, so I thought I might invest in a set of RCBS dies. Cholla Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Southpaw Gringo, SASS # 74217 Posted January 30, 2016 Share Posted January 30, 2016 Thanks for the help guys. I'm using an old set of Lachmiller dies and I'm certain they're designed for use with .427"-ish bullets, so I thought I might invest in a set of RCBS dies. Cholla I'd say go for it. Midway is running a sale on them and RCBS has a 10 dollar rebate going on right now. Might be a good time to invest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colorado Coffinmaker Posted January 30, 2016 Share Posted January 30, 2016 Thought ever cross yer mind to call RCBS and ask?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grizzly Dave Posted January 30, 2016 Share Posted January 30, 2016 I started out loading 38s on a single stage with the RCBS cowboy dies and liked them a lot, but have nothing to compare them to. When I got my XL650 I got a set of Dillon dies for the separate crimp die and ease of cleaning the seating die. I like them just fine as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cholla Hill Tirador Posted January 30, 2016 Author Share Posted January 30, 2016 Yeah I saw the Cowboy dies on sale at Midway, but after reading the opinions of those here, I don't think I need to spend an extra $17 for the Cowboy dies. I have stacks and stacks of RCBS dies on my bench and they're always been great products, but always wondered if there really was any difference in these dies. Thanks again, Cholla Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cholla Hill Tirador Posted January 30, 2016 Author Share Posted January 30, 2016 Thought ever cross yer mind to call RCBS and ask?? Thought ever cross yer mind that they're closed on Saturday and Sunday?? "RCBS representatives are available to answer your calls between 7 a.m. – 7 p.m. CT Monday through Friday." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619 Posted January 30, 2016 Share Posted January 30, 2016 Cowboy dies come in a brown box, regular RCBS in a green one. But seriously, I don't have any RCBS "Cowboy" dies. Just regular ones in .45 Colt, .44 Special, .38 Special/.357 Magnum and .45 ACP. They all work just fine for my Cowboy and Wild Bunch shooting. I inherited all of these from my father. For .32-20, .44-40, .38 S&W, .38 Short and Long Colt, .32 S&W, .32 S&W Long, and .38 Super, I have Lee dies. They work great, don't cost as much as RCBS, and that "Powder thru the expander die" thing is a great time saver. I have a few other calibers, both Lee and RCBS, and others, but they are not worth mentioning in this thread. When all is said and done, I like Lee the best. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Hooker Posted January 30, 2016 Share Posted January 30, 2016 They're in CCH vs. steel or plated. Other than that....? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warden Callaway Posted January 30, 2016 Share Posted January 30, 2016 The RCBS rebate works every time. Remember you need a receipt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Springfield Slim SASS #24733 Posted January 30, 2016 Share Posted January 30, 2016 FWIW, my Dillon 45 Colt dies tended to scrape off a bit of lead from my .454 sized 45 bullets, and my Cowboy dies don't, so I assume the Cowboy dies allow for larger, softer bullets. I also use them with my 44-40, and work very well. I know for a fact from measuring that my Cowboy dies in 38-55 have a larger expander than my 38-55 LEE dies, which makes a big difference since I load .380 bullets in both my 38-55 rifles. The LEE dies shaved off lead when inserting bullets in the case, and exerted much more pressure while doing so. So, if you load softer lead bullets, like most do for shooting BP, the RCBS dies might be a good investment. They certainly don't work any worse, and might save you from having to buy 2 sets of dies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tracker Jack Daniels,58780 Posted January 30, 2016 Share Posted January 30, 2016 The cowboy dies have a .429 expander so that lead bullets can be seated easier. Otherwise lots of guys replace the expander stem with one from a .44 mag set. I did that until my wife gave me a cowboy set for Christmas one year. I found that I did not mess up as many case necks when using a .429 stem as oppose to a .427 stem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933 Posted January 30, 2016 Share Posted January 30, 2016 I have four sets of .44-40 dies including the RCBS standard and Cowboy dies. Other than being blued and casehardened there is no material difference between the RCBS dies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colorado Coffinmaker Posted January 30, 2016 Share Posted January 30, 2016 Sure. That's why I call a manufacturer for technical information Monday thru Friday. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Griff Posted January 30, 2016 Share Posted January 30, 2016 Thought ever cross yer mind that they're closed on Saturday and Sunday?? "RCBS representatives are available to answer your calls between 7 a.m. – 7 p.m. CT Monday through Friday." Sure. That's why I call a manufacturer for technical information Monday thru Friday. But, if you're like me, I only think of these things on the weekend... But... doing a search on the forum gave me 20 threads that touched on this subject. The answer I saw most often was the std. dies are cheaper, and a .44RemMag expander gives the same result as the "Cowboy" set except the CCH. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WOODFOX , sass#34179 Posted January 31, 2016 Share Posted January 31, 2016 The expander is a little bigger in dia. Woodfox Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 Posted January 31, 2016 Share Posted January 31, 2016 Having talked with the RCBS folks about this, THERE IS A DIFFERENCE. Mostly what a few of the posters have mentioned here. The expander is set up to open the mouth larger for lead bullets to avoid bullet damage when seating! Most of the other difference, like a color heat treat on the surface and brass lock rings, are mainly for looks. But, they DO have a proper size expander button for working with cast slugs. I've got a set or two. And some sets of regular dies, in which I have put in larger expanders or even use a Lyman M die to do a great job on preparing the case mouth for lead slugs. So, buy what you need. Try not to get snowed in by hype or pretty flashy stuff. Just about what your Mama should have taught you when you were 10! Good luck, GJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blastmaster Posted January 31, 2016 Share Posted January 31, 2016 I did a quick review of the RCBS Cowboy dies offered and by and large they are for the odd ball calibers. If RCBS has a regular set for, lets say the 32-20 & the Cowboy 32-20, then I would suspect they are the same thing. I purchased their 45colt/45Schofield Cowboy dies because I was wanting a crimp die for the shorter Schofield case. My regular 45LC seating/crimp die just couldn't adjust down far enough. I did the same for the 44m/44sp/44russian, I needed it for the shorter 44russian that the regular 44mag die set just couldn't adjust down far enough. I suspect the belling die could bell the shorter cases where the standard 45LC/44Mag case bell die couldn't. or,,, you could just grind down a regular set till you could screw it down to achieve the desired results. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stone Cole Posted January 31, 2016 Share Posted January 31, 2016 Don't suppose they sell the proper size expander button for working with cast slugs as an upgrade to existing Die sets. I'd pull the trigger on that. I'll shoot off an email to RCBS CS to be sure. Happy Trails! Stone Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
watab kid Posted January 31, 2016 Share Posted January 31, 2016 the box my dies came in said simply 45 colt , nothing more , but work just fine , dont pay more for what you buy for that "cowboy" label Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 Posted January 31, 2016 Share Posted January 31, 2016 Don't suppose they sell the proper size expander button for working with cast slugs as an upgrade to existing Die sets. I'd pull the trigger on that. I'll shoot off an email to RCBS CS to be sure. Happy Trails! Stone They do - already told you that!. Good luck, GJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trailboss (Santa) Dave Posted January 31, 2016 Share Posted January 31, 2016 Loading dies today are made to load jacketed bullets and most will work well with cast lead. The RCBS Cowboy dies are built to load cast bullets. 44-40 is the only cartridge I have used with the cowboy dies I load .430 bullets and other dies just did not work. With the Cowboy dies my bullet fit and chamber with out a problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cholla Hill Tirador Posted January 31, 2016 Author Share Posted January 31, 2016 The specific problems with my die are, 1) the expander ball is too abrupt. You go from no flair of the case mouth to too much very easily. 2) The seater stem leaves that unsightly ring around the bullet when compressing black powder. It's sounding more and more like a set of standard dies would work fine. I know for sure they do in my other calibers (38/357, 38-40, 44 Sp and 45 Colt) Cholla Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933 Posted January 31, 2016 Share Posted January 31, 2016 The specific problems with my die are, 1) the expander ball is too abrupt. You go from no flair of the case mouth to too much very easily. 2) The seater stem leaves that unsightly ring around the bullet when compressing black powder. It's sounding more and more like a set of standard dies would work fine. I know for sure they do in my other calibers (38/357, 38-40, 44 Sp and 45 Colt) Cholla How much are you trying to compress the powder? A 1/16" to an 1/8" of compression with real BP is more than enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933 Posted January 31, 2016 Share Posted January 31, 2016 Reloading .44-40 can be one of the biggest PITAs there is. Whenever one of these .44-40 threads starts there are always some people that say it is no harder to load than a straight cased shell. The difficulty is that there is actually more than one “.44-40” and whether it is easy or hard to load depends on what you are loading for. IF you are using a modern Uberti built .44-40 rifle and loading for that one gun it may be “easy.” The modern Ubertis use modern .44 dimensions, i.e., they are designed for standard .429 bullets. If you are using a modern set of dies that is dimensioned for .429 bullets all might be well. However, if you add a second gun to your stable of .44-40s you have just doubled the chance the ammo won’t work in both. Add in originals and different brands of guns and the potential problems go up dramatically. The original .44-40 bullet was .427. I have original Colts, both revolvers and Lightning rifles, and even newer 3rd Gen Colts which will not chamber ammo with .429 or .430 bullets loaded in them. Original Winchesters were designed for .427 bullets. I have measured .44-40 bores that range from .423 to .435. The chambers are also highly variable. For quite a while factory loaded Remington and Winchester .44-40 ammo was loaded with .425 bullets to make sure they would chamber in different guns. They have gone up a thousandth and now both load .426 bullets. http://www.midwayusa.com/product/1390291280/winchester-bullets-44-40-wcf-426-diameter-200-grain-soft-point An extra variable is that a LOT of us are using Dillon loaders. They do not use the expander that comes with most dies. The expander and neck flare is part of the powder funnel at the powder measure station. Expanders should not be the same size as the bullet or you will have little or no neck tension. Expanders are normally .002 to .004” smaller than the bullet. I actually have three Dillon powder funnels for the .44-40 (at least one of which is no longer made). One is .423 for loading the old Remington and Winchester .425 factory bullets. One is .425 for loading original style .427 bullets and one is .427 for loading .429 bullets. If I try to load a .429 bullet into a case that I have expanded using the .423 expander the neck bulges and it won’t chamber in anything. After years of experimenting I found that loading different bullets for different guns was a PITA. ESPECIALLY if I grabbed the wrong box and got to the range and had feeding problems or they wouldn’t chamber in my Colts. So I have standardized on one loading with .427 bullets. I don’t load rock hard bullets and have never had an accuracy or leading problem as the softer alloys will bump up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Major Art Tillery Posted January 31, 2016 Share Posted January 31, 2016 I own several RCBS Cowboy Dies, 45 Colt, 45/70, 44-40, 32 H&R, 38/357, and 38-55. I personally like them... And they have served me well, just what I started with so I stuck with them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Von Dutch, SASS # 7995 Posted January 31, 2016 Share Posted January 31, 2016 I talked to a RCBS rep. about ten years ago and he told me the cowboy dies are set up for lead . V.D. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cholla Hill Tirador Posted January 31, 2016 Author Share Posted January 31, 2016 Compression varies...if I'm not in a hurry and slowly pour the powder in with a funnel, it compresses about the amount you mention. But if I'm trying to load quick and charge directly from the powder measure, there's a bit more. Thanks for the help, fellas. Cholla Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trailrider #896 Posted January 31, 2016 Share Posted January 31, 2016 With modern-manufactured .44-40's the groove diameters are mostly .429". With original rifles and pistols, it is a crapshoot! I've seen a M1873 Winchester with a .434" groove diameter barrel (NOT worn, probably the first one made with a new bit in the rifling machine). It would shoot jacketed .429" bullets (the maximum that would chamber using Winchester brass) with smokeless powder loads duplicating the original ballistics fairly decently, as the bullet jacket would engage the rifling. With .429" hard cast bullets and the same smokeless loads, you could hit a bull in the butt with the muzzle inside it! The only possible combination was a hollow-base SOFT lead bullet and FFFg BP! Too much trouble, so I got a modern lever action that shoots hard cast .430" slugs with smokeless! A Colt's .44-40 Frontier Six Shooter with a .427" bullet and .4245" throats had a modern steel cylinder fitted to it, with .427" throats. With .428" lead alloy bullets, that thing will drive tacks at 15 yds or so! But so will my Ruger OMV's that have .429" rifling...and d.425" throats! I don't consider .44-40 difficult to load. The only thing you have to do is figure out what bullet diameters work best. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.