Loading 44-40 BP

[Amarillo Rattler]

I use a 1/16" over powder wad for the rifle rounds in 38 and 44-40.

 

Lead melts at 621 degrees and boils at 3100 degrees (vaporizing the lead). Most of our BP burns at 3700 degrees. The fiber wad provides some protection from that extreme heat during the very short time the bullet is in the barrel.

 

Both 73s barrels are lead free after 8 years (38) and 4 years (44-40) of 250+ rounds per month.

 

Many will not agree with the need for over powder wads in rifle rounds. My preference for,wads is a carryover from BPCR shooting of 45-70 shoulder knockers.

 

Shootin' the Soot,

Amarillo Rattler

[Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933]

After loading thousands of .44-40 BP rounds over the years I have the following setup and general suggestions. Use soft bullets. A drop tube is a complete waste of time for CAS rounds. Over powder caulking rod or fiber wads takes extra time. I am lazy and don't want to spend any extra time on anything. I just like to pull the handle and grudgingly put the bullet on the top of the case. For wuss load smokeless stuff I have a bullet feeder. Fill the Dillon hopper with power and the Lee hopper with grits and I am good to go.

 

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

I'll guaran-darn-tee you that BP is not going to be boiling lead off the bottom of your slugs. The over powder wads in rifle cartridge shooting are to improve accuracy, not protect the bullet base.

 

Totally a waste of time and money in .44-40 match ammo.

 

Good luck, GJ

[Driftwood Johnson, SASS #38283]

Yup. I conducted tests years ago. Compared accuracy of my 44-40 loads both with and without a card wad between the powder and the bullet. Absolutely no difference in accuracy. Examined the base of recovered bullets. No evidence of melted lead at the base of the bullet. It just ain't in the barrel long enough to melt the base of the bullet. I do put a wad between the bullet and the powder for long range 45-70, but it is overkill for CAS ammo.

 

I'm with Larsen. I am lazy too. I don't like to spend any more time loading than I have to. Adding stuff like fillers and wads just takes more time and makes a simple process more complicated than it needs to be. I load all my Cowboy Black Powder ammo on a Hornady Lock And Load AP progressive press with a Lyman Black Powder measure mounted to the press. Feed a shell and a bullet, yank the handle, throw the powder measure rotor, return the handle and a finished round pops off the press. No stopping to clean primer pockets. Just keep pulling the handles and feeding brass and bullets.

 

I will give you one caution though. 44-40 brass is very easy to damage because the brass is so thin at the neck. Allow a case to bump into the bottom of the decap/sizing die and you will probably crumple the brass and ruin it. A 45 Colt will shrug off such a blow, a 44-40 will not. So I do run a bit slower with 44-40 than with 45 Colt, so if I feel a case bump into the bottom of the die I can ease off and not ruin the case.

 

[Fingers McGee]

What Driftwood said +1. Only difference is I use a Hornady BP measure hooked into the L&L mechanism so powder is dropped with pull of the handle.

 

 

 

Fingers (Show Me MO smoke) McGee

[Grave Robber, SASS #57546]

I tried using the .429 bullets from Springfield Slim in my Uberti 1873. Most of them would not chamber. Went back to the .427's and they work fine for the distance we shoot.

 

Driftwood, the Swiss powder costs about $6.45 more per pound than Scheutzen (at least from the Maine Powder House). Is the Swiss so much cleaner that it warrants the difference in price? Based on your description of the charcoal I may have to hold off on making my own black powder.

[Deadeye George]

I tried using the .429 bullets from Springfield Slim in my Uberti 1873. Most of them would not chamber. Went back to the .427's and they work fine for the distance we shoot.

 

Driftwood, the Swiss powder costs about $6.45 more per pound than Scheutzen (at least from the Maine Powder House). Is the Swiss so much cleaner that it warrants the difference in price? Based on your description of the charcoal I may have to hold off on making my own black powder.

What I have learned so far this past week prompts me to ask the question....... Is your Uberti 1873 a newer rifle or does it have a few years on it? From what I've deduced the older Winchesters and older Uberti rifles seem to have slightly smaller diameter bores so favor the .427" bullets while the newer rifles seem to shoot the .429" bullets just fine. From recent discussions the majority of Uberti owners are shooting the .429" bullets. I guess I'll be able to weigh in the conversation with first hand experience in a week or so.

[Driftwood Johnson, SASS #38283]

 

I tried using the .429 bullets from Springfield Slim in my Uberti 1873. Most of them would not chamber. Went back to the .427's and they work fine for the distance we shoot.

 

Driftwood, the Swiss powder costs about $6.45 more per pound than Scheutzen (at least from the Maine Powder House). Is the Swiss so much cleaner that it warrants the difference in price? Based on your description of the charcoal I may have to hold off on making my own black powder.

Howdy Again

 

This is where bullet diameter and case wall thickness come into play. A bunch of years ago the only rifle I was shooting Black Powder out of in CAS was my Uberti replica 1873. It had been made in the 1980s. I bought it used about ten years ago. This one had a tight bore, the rifling grooves measured only .427 in diameter. I tested bullets of three different diameters in it; .427, 428, and .429. The rifle shot well with all three, but the .429 diameter bullets were a little bit stubborn to chamber. It only stands to reason, the larger the bullet you use, the larger the case mouth diameter will be. This particular '73 had a fairly tight chamber, so it did not want to fully seat .429 bullets unless I gave them a good shove with the bolt. So for a long time I was only shooting .427 bullets in that rifle. I also had an original Winchester Model 1892, chambered for 44-40, and it's rifling grooves were also .427, as well as an old Marlin Model 1894 which also had .427 rifling. So .427 bullets worked fine in all three rifles.

 

But then I bought my Uberti 1860 Henry, and its rifling is .429 in diameter. To make things even crazier, I bought an original Winchester Model 1892 Saddle Ring Carbine, made about 1918 if I recall correctly, and its rifling was also .429 in diameter. So much for older rifles having the smaller rifling diameter.

 

So as not to go crazy and have two different loads for two different rifling diameters, I started using bullets .428 in diameter for all my 44-40 loads. These work fine in all my rifles, .427 or .429 diameter rifling.

 

There is one more wrinkle to the story of bullet diameters and 44-40. I used to only use Winchester 44-40 brass. My experience showed that Winchester 44-40 brass had the thinnest brass at the case mouth than any other brand, right about .007.

 

So.........if your rifling demands a larger diameter bullet, but you are having trouble chambering the rounds, using the brass with the thinnest brass at the case mouth will buy you another .001 or so of tolerance. That's why all my 44-40 rounds used to be loaded in Winchester brass. Unfortunately, finding Winchester 44-40 brass started getting difficult. They only made it once or twice a year, and it was tough to find. That's why I only load 44-40 with Starline brass now. It is almost as thin at the neck as Winchester brass, and my 44-40 rounds made with .428 bullets chamber nicely and shoot well in all my 44-40 rifles. And Starline makes 44-40 brass all the time, so it is easy to find. I buy direct from Starline whenever I need new brass for any of the cartridges I load.

 

 

Swiss powder costs about $6.45 more per pound than Scheutzen (at least from the Maine Powder House). Is the Swiss so much cleaner that it warrants the difference in price?

 

Not to me it don't. That's why I use Schuetzen. Costs much less than Swiss, and the Big Lube bullets take care of the fouling left behind.

 

 

Based on your description of the charcoal I may have to hold off on making my own black powder.

 

I very strongly suggest you forget about making your own Black Powder. Powder mills used to blow up regularly. Goex had another explosion not too long ago, and they are the experts. If your house blows up because you were making gun powder I doubt if your insurance company will pay off. Plus, there really is an art to making Black Powder. The quality of the charcoal has a lot to do with the quality of the powder.

 

I have been shooting Black Powder for a long, long time, I got my first Cap & Ball revolver in 1968.

 

I would not dream of trying to make my own Black Powder.

[Trailrider #896]

Howdy Again

 

This is where bullet diameter and case wall thickness come into play. A bunch of years ago the only rifle I was shooting Black Powder out of in CAS was my Uberti replica 1873. It had been made in the 1980s. I bought it used about ten years ago. This one had a tight bore, the rifling grooves measured only .427 in diameter. I tested bullets of three different diameters in it; .427, 428, and .429. The rifle shot well with all three, but the .429 diameter bullets were a little bit stubborn to chamber. It only stands to reason, the larger the bullet you use, the larger the case mouth diameter will be. This particular '73 had a fairly tight chamber, so it did not want to fully seat .429 bullets unless I gave them a good shove with the bolt. So for a long time I was only shooting .427 bullets in that rifle. I also had an original Winchester Model 1892, chambered for 44-40, and it's rifling grooves were also .427, as well as an old Marlin Model 1894 which also had .427 rifling. So .427 bullets worked fine in all three rifles.

 

But then I bought my Uberti 1860 Henry, and its rifling is .429 in diameter. To make things even crazier, I bought an original Winchester Model 1892 Saddle Ring Carbine, made about 1918 if I recall correctly, and its rifling was also .429 in diameter. So much for older rifles having the smaller rifling diameter.

 

So as not to go crazy and have two different loads for two different rifling diameters, I started using bullets .428 in diameter for all my 44-40 loads. These work fine in all my rifles, .427 or .429 diameter rifling.

 

There is one more wrinkle to the story of bullet diameters and 44-40. I used to only use Winchester 44-40 brass. My experience showed that Winchester 44-40 brass had the thinnest brass at the case mouth than any other brand, right about .007.

 

So.........if your rifling demands a larger diameter bullet, but you are having trouble chambering the rounds, using the brass with the thinnest brass at the case mouth will buy you another .001 or so of tolerance. That's why all my 44-40 rounds used to be loaded in Winchester brass. Unfortunately, finding Winchester 44-40 brass started getting difficult. They only made it once or twice a year, and it was tough to find. That's why I only load 44-40 with Starline brass now. It is almost as thin at the neck as Winchester brass, and my 44-40 rounds made with .428 bullets chamber nicely and shoot well in all my 44-40 rifles. And Starline makes 44-40 brass all the time, so it is easy to find. I buy direct from Starline whenever I need new brass for any of the cartridges I load.

 

 

Not to me it don't. That's why I use Schuetzen. Costs much less than Swiss, and the Big Lube bullets take care of the fouling left behind.

 

 

I very strongly suggest you forget about making your own Black Powder. Powder mills used to blow up regularly. Goex had another explosion not too long ago, and they are the experts. If your house blows up because you were making gun powder I doubt if your insurance company will pay off. Plus, there really is an art to making Black Powder. The quality of the charcoal has a lot to do with the quality of the powder.

 

I have been shooting Black Powder for a long, long time, I got my first Cap & Ball revolver in 1968.

 

I would not dream of trying to make my own Black Powder.

In addition to "Johnny Dollar" (radio mystery show about an insurance investigator), you'd probably have a LOT of explaining to do to the local fire marshal, polezei and probably would have a squadron of black helicopters landing in you backyard! Apart from that, the FAA probably would get after you for failing to file a flight plan as you go sailing over the tree!

 

Seriously, messing with manufacture of black powder is NOT a good idea. As was posted, the major manufacturers periodically "phase out" their plants suddenly, mit donner und blitzen und eargesplitten loudenbooming!

[Abilene Slim SASS 81783]

Everything Driftwood said. Adding on, I use a Redding Profile Crimp die. For me, it does a better job than the Lee Factory Crimp. YMMV.

[Prairie Dawg, SASS #50329]

Geeze.......You guys have such clean reloading rooms!

 

I'm jealous!

[Major Art Tillery]

Sounds like once I get some bullets ordered from Slim, I will be on my way to making some True BP rounds. Thanks everyone, sure appreciate the information and all the tips. Gotta love the SASS WIRE!

[Jed I. Knight, SASS #36423]

Major Art Tillery,

 

I thought I'd add a little to all the great info you've already received.

 

I use 2F. No wad needed. And no drop tube needed either.

 

Hope that helps.

[Driftwood Johnson, SASS #38283]

 

Geeze.......You guys have such clean reloading rooms!

I cleaned up the corner of my bench for that photo.

 

This is what my loading benches usually look like.

 

[Prairie Dawg, SASS #50329]

Thanks Driftwood.

 

I feel better now!

 

--Dawg

[Major Art Tillery]

Major Art Tillery,

 

I thought I'd add a little to all the great info you've already received.

 

I use 2F. No wad needed. And no drop tube needed either.

 

Hope that helps.

Thank ya Jed I.

[Ricochet James]

Hey that's kinda what my room normally looks like but I know exactly where everything is

[flaherty08]

If you want to back off the recoil, try a lighter bullet. Too little powder and or compression, and your primers will back out and jam up the cylinder. I don't think you can go much below 20 grains in the 44/40 without running into this problem, someone on this thread may know how to do so, but I haven't learned that trick yet.

 

I use .429 diameter bullets in my Uberti 73' and Rugers, took awhile to find and expander plug I liked, and you have to really dial in your crimp perfectly on your seating die. If you over crimp you will get a very small bulge at the neck of the case and the rounds won't chamber.

[flaherty08]

Also, a Lee factory crimp die can help iron out a small bulge in the neck if it's not too bad.

[John Henry Quick]

Don't let the seating and crimping step(s) that you do jam the case mouth into the bottom of the land above your crimp groove. The .44-40 case is so thin, it buckles and leaves a bulge that you can mike (and when real bad, you can feel) below the crimp. This will make it tough to chamber the round. For 100% protection from bulged case necks, I use a Redding profile crimp die. Makes a tight crimp and also "resizes" the neck area. Much better than the Lee factory crimp (by my measurements and experience) and whole lots better than the expedient folks on here resort to - running the loaded round into the SIZER die (with decapper stem removed) - which undersizes the bullet and neck immensely.

 

Thank you! I've never been truly happy with the crimp I get from the Lee Factory Crimp, so I ordered the Redding Profile Crimp after reading this and I must say that the results look much more like what I expect.

[Deadeye George]

If you want to back off the recoil, try a lighter bullet. Too little powder and or compression, and your primers will back out and jam up the cylinder. I don't think you can go much below 20 grains in the 44/40 without running into this problem, someone on this thread may know how to do so, but I haven't learned that trick yet.

 

I use .429 diameter bullets in my Uberti 73' and Rugers, took awhile to find and expander plug I liked, and you have to really dial in your crimp perfectly on your seating die. If you over crimp you will get a very small bulge at the neck of the case and the rounds won't chamber.

 

 

Also, a Lee factory crimp die can help iron out a small bulge in the neck if it's not too bad.

 

Not trying to pick on you but if I'm reading your posts correctly, you are using two separate dies and crimping your round twice which is not good and is probably why you are having problems. The Lee factory crimp die is not designed to "iron out bulges" which were created by another die that was not set up properly.

 

If you "dialed in" your seat/crimp die correctly there would be no neck bulge to begin with and you would have no need to use the Lee factory crimp die to help "iron out" the bulges left by your seat/crimp die.

 

Since you already have the Lee crimp die and are having problems with bulged cases I would back your seat/crimp die back out to where it functions as a bullet seater ONLY then use the Lee factory crimp die to apply a crimp.

 

But, based on what several seasoned, experienced loaders have recommended in this and other threads, there is a better die to use with the 44-40 cases than the Lee die and it is the Redding Profile Crimp Series A die P/N 86188. I ordered it along with the Redding 3 die set and set up my seat/crimp die so it functions as a bullet seater only with NO crimping at all and set up the Profile die right behind it in my press for perfect results, best $26 I have spent in a long while! In Reddings own words...... "The die has a quick taper crimp section followed by a tight roll crimp. Die adjustment will first produce a taper crimp followed by a uniform tight roll crimp."

 

As an old retired engineer I think it is a pretty slick design how the die "holds" the case where it has applied the taper crimp as it applies a roll crimp thus eliminating the stress on the case neck which is giving many loaders problems and bulging their cases. If I had three thumbs I would give the die three thumbs up!

 

[The Coconino Pistolero, SASS # 72432]

One thing I learned that caused the dreaded neck bulge is over belling the case. Learned that the hard way. With the thin metal of the .44 WCF just the minimum necessary to git the bullet in without shaving lead. Even what looks like an OK case bell for say the .45 Colt is too much for the .44 WCF I use the RCBS Cowboy dies with good success for BP.

[Driftwood Johnson, SASS #38283]

Howdy

 

We are talking strictly BP here, right?

 

I will admit, 44-40 and 38-40 are the only two cartridges that I load using the Lee Factory Crimp die. All the other Black Powder cartridges that I load (45 Colt, 45 Schofield, 44 Russian), I seat and crimp in one step.

 

HOWEVER....................the reason I use the Factory Crimp die for 44-40 and 38-40 is partially because of the thin brass at the necks. I load these cartridges with the Big Lube bullets, and these bullets carry a HUGE amount of BP lube. Sometimes a little bit of the lube smooshes out of the lube groove as the bullets are pushed past the case mouth. When this happens, sometimes a little bit of lube will be trapped between the bullet and the case mouth. Somewhere back in high school physics I learned that you cannot compress a liquid, and BP lube is almost a liquid. So with the exceedingly thin brass at the neck of 44-40 and 38-40, when I tried seating and crimping in one step, the crimp section of the die did not force all that non-compressable lube flat. Instead I would sometimes get bulges near the crimp, from tiny globs of bullet lube under the brass. The solution to this problem was to only seat the bullet with the seating/crimp die, and then form the crimp with the Lee Factory crimp die. The squeezing action of the collet type die was strong enough to smoosh the offending little blobs of bullet lube flat under the brass. This is the way I have been loading 44-40 for many years, and now 38-40 too.

 

The thicker brass of all those other cartridges prevents this problem. The standard crimp section of a seating/crimp die is enough to flatten any rambunctious blobs of bullet lube flat, so I get good crimps with all those other cartridges just seating and crimping in one step.But the thin brass of 44-40 and 38-40 has meant that I do use the Lee Factory Crimp die for those two cartridges.

 

So............there is one more way you might get bad crimps with 44-40 and 38-40.

 

Other than that, I look at the Factory Crimp die as a crutch for those who have not taken the time to set their seating/crimp die properly.

 

 

If you want to back off the recoil, try a lighter bullet. Too little powder and or compression, and your primers will back out and jam up the cylinder. I don't think you can go much below 20 grains in the 44/40 without running into this problem, someone on this thread may know how to do so, but I haven't learned that trick yet.

 

You better be filling the empty air space with something if you are going to lighten the powder charge. Years ago I used to use corn meal as a filler when I was trying to save powder. Gave that up a long time ago, too much work. I just fill the case and seat the bullet now, no reduced loads.

[Monco]

I just fill the case and seat the bullet now, no reduced loads.

 

So much more fun too. Bigger booms, lots of smoke and fire.......best reason to use BP in the first place IMO. Loading large in BP is one of few things in life where less effort yields more fun!

[El Hombre Sin Nombre]

One thing I learned that caused the dreaded neck bulge is over belling the case. Learned that the hard way. With the thin metal of the .44 WCF just the minimum necessary to git the bullet in without shaving lead. Even what looks like an OK case bell for say the .45 Colt is too much for the .44 WCF I use the RCBS Cowboy dies with good success for BP.

That's exactly the same for me for both the 44-40 and 38-40

 

 

So much more fun too. Bigger booms, lots of smoke and fire.......best reason to use BP in the first place IMO. Loading large in BP is one of few things in life where less effort yields more fun!

I was always under the impression that the big boom and lots of smoke and fire is why we shoot BP in the first place. Was I wrong about that? Perhaps it's just me.