Loading 44-40 BP

[Major Art Tillery]

I have only shot BP subs, APP and Triple 7... But thinking of venturing into True Black this year for a few matches. Figure on using Chey Cast 44-40 hard Cast bullets with BP lube. A 3F Powder? Wad size? Powder drop needed? Could some of you pards help me out some. I have read up on it what I can... Just looking for more info from shooting pards.

 

Major Art Tillery

[Sedalia Dave]

FFFg in a 44-40 without filler would be a prety stout load for CAS. Maybe FFg. I know at least one shooter that uses 1 1/2Fg in his pistol loads. Low recoil and no filler required.

[Major Art Tillery]

I do have 1 1/2 F for my Sharps I could use if that is the case

[Prairie Dawg, SASS #50329]

Hey Art:

2.2 cc Lee dipper FFg or FFFg.

No need for any powder more coarse

Seat the bullit & crimp.

For your rifle, a 200 grain Mav Dutchman from Springfield Slim would be a better choice as it holds a ton of lube and you can shoot all day without swabbing the barrel.

Probably need to swab if using the Chey, altho I can't say for sure.

However, when accuracy goes because you run out of lube and get a hard fouling ring near the end of the barrel, it goes big-time.

no wad or drop tube needed

It really is that simple.

--Dawg

[Beartrap SASS#57175]

2F would be much preferable over 3F and don't forget that true BP, unlike APP, needs some compression.

[Cowboy Rick, SASS #49739L]

For every day pistol loads I use a little over 1/2 the capacity of the case with FFFg (44-40 & .45 Colt) and a finely ground walnut shell (lizard litter from the pet store) filler to the point of about 1/8" compression. For rifle and Pale Rider, no filler and the same powder. Your wrists will thank you if you shoot a lot. I go through about 70# of BP every year, so even with 62gr in the SG it's a handful. I'm reminded every time I shoot a Pale Rider match

 

CR

[Hollifer A. Dollar]

I have been loading 44-40 with the 200 gn Mav Dutchman Big Lube for about a year. Fill the case with FFG Goex so you get about 1/16" compression. Use a good roll crimp. From my experience a roll crimp works better than the Lee collet-style factory crimp but you have to be careful with the die setting. Shooting this load is a lot of fun, just enough recoil with revolvers to know its there & negligible recoil with the rifle but a big boom with both.

 

One thing I have noticed about 44-40, different brands of brass react differently. I primarily use Starline, but have found that Hornady brass is pretty equal. I got about 100 pcs of CBC brass a while back, loaded them with the same die settings but they wouldn't feed in my rifle or chamber in the revolvers. I ended up pulling the bullets & throwing all the brass in the recycle bucket.

 

Holler

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

Swap that hard-cast Chey for a softer lead slug!

 

BP will make maybe 9,000 PSI chamber pressure with a full case. A "hard cast" alloy bullet is about 12 Brinnell (6% Sb, 2%Sn) air cooled. That takes about 14,000 PSI to make it upset into grooves well and provide best accuracy.

 

Powder to the base of the slug will give you all the powder you need - no need for a drop tube to cram even more in!

 

Don't let the seating and crimping step(s) that you do jam the case mouth into the bottom of the land above your crimp groove. The .44-40 case is so thin, it buckles and leaves a bulge that you can mike (and when real bad, you can feel) below the crimp. This will make it tough to chamber the round. For 100% protection from bulged case necks, I use a Redding profile crimp die. Makes a tight crimp and also "resizes" the neck area. Much better than the Lee factory crimp (by my measurements and experience) and whole lots better than the expedient folks on here resort to - running the loaded round into the SIZER die (with decapper stem removed) - which undersizes the bullet and neck immensely.

 

I got about 100 pcs of CBC brass a while back, loaded them with the same die settings but they wouldn't feed in my rifle or chamber in the revolvers.

Oh, see, there's most likely an example of letting the case neck buckle, because the new type of brass was probably a couple thousandths longer than the old brass.

 

 

No over-powder wad needed if you have enough good BP lube on the bullet.

 

I'd suggest getting Big Lube Bullets from Springfield Slim to try out! Lots of lube to keep even a rifle barrel's fouling softened up, and it's a good quality BP lube. http://www.whyteleat...om/BigLube.html

 

Good luck, GJ

[Nickel City Dude]

Major

Sent you a PM

NCD

[Driftwood Johnson, SASS #38283]

Howdy

 

I agree, forget the Chey Cast bullets.

 

Years ago I tried several brands of bullets that were on the market advertising they were good for Black Powder. Some even had two lube grooves. None of them carried enough lube to keep the bore of my rifle lubed the entire length. After a couple of stages I had hard fouling in the last six inches or so of my bore and it affected accuracy. Not the end of the world, a good swabbing with a water based BP solvent cleared out the hard fouling, but it had to be done every few stages.

 

Many of the powders used in the 19th Century were cleaner burning than what we have available today. Goex is particularly dirty stuff, Schuetzen (or Graffs) is a bit better, they use a better grade of charcoal. With these powders, you need a lot of lube on the bullet to keep the fouling soft the entire length of the bore. Swiss powder burns cleaner than anything else made today, you might get away with those bullets if you use Swiss, but it is much more expensive. You can probably get away with those bullets in your pistols, but a rifle barrel requires more lube on the bullets.

 

The Big Lube bullets, were developed specifically for this problem. They have a huge lube groove. They keep the bore of a 24" rifle lubed all the way. After a few shots you will notice a 'lube star' at the muzzle, indicating that that the bullet still had lube on it when it left the muzzle. That is what you want. I can shoot my rifles all day, even go for a two day match, and I never need to swab the barrel to maintain accuracy.

 

I used to cast my own Big Lube bullets, but when my supply of cheap lead dried up I started buying them from Springfield Slim. He makes a good product.

 

http://www.whyteleatherworks.com/BigLube.html

 

 

 

FFFg in a 44-40 without filler would be a prety stout load for CAS. Maybe FFg. I know at least one shooter that uses 1 1/2Fg in his pistol loads. Low recoil and no filler required.

 

Fillers? What the heck do you need filler for? If you want to shoot Black Powder, do it right. It is supposed to roar and boom. My recipe is the same as Prairie Dawg's. 2.2CC of either FFg or FFFg, it really does not matter, under a 200 grain Mav-Dutchman Big Lube bullet. You will get a bit more velocity with FFFg, about 60-100 fps, all other things being equal, but I long ago changed over to FFg for all my CAS loads. No wad needed, no drop tube. Just seat the bullet so it compresses the powder by about 1/16" -1/8". That's all there is to it.

 

For brass, I used to like Winchester best because it had the thinnest brass at the case mouth. But it's tough to find Winchester brass these days, so I have standardized on Starline. Forget the CBC stuff, it is not as good quality as Starline.

 

One other thing. You might want to slug your barrel so you know what diameter bullet to buy. Most Uberti rifles are coming with .429 rifling grooves these days. I have some older rifles with .427 grooves. Slim usually sizes his bullets to either .427 or .429. .429 soft bullets will work fine in a barrel with .429 grooves. The larger diameter bullet you use, the more chance you have of crumpling the neck down below the bullet, because the larger diameter the bullet is, the more friction it creates against the case neck wall. And pay attention to what GJ said about setting your dies so the brass does not ride all the way up and jam against the underside of the top of the crimp groove. That is another good way to guarantee a bulged neck with 44-40.

[TN Mongo, SASS #61450]

Driftwood is a "purist", but if you want a load with less kick, fillers are fine. You still need to compress the load. It's easy to work out a load that has plenty of boom and smoke, but is as mild as shooting .38s.

[John Boy]

The published Curtis's & Harvey loading data for the 44-40 is: 200gr bullet - 39gr FFFg - 1180fps

* No wad - no fillers - no drop tube!

[Grapeshot 8553]

I concur with the Soft Bullets. They will obdurate and keep that hot gass behind the bullet and not sneaking around the base and melting your bullets leaving lead deposits all through the barrel.

[Desert Pete SASS #42168]

The published Curtis's & Harvey loading data for the 44-40 is: 200gr bullet - 39gr FFFg - 1180fps

* No wad - no fillers - no drop tube!

Now that is a right stout load!

 

I have shot a lot of 44-40 BP. Including some loads pretty close to this one. Great fun for harassing the other shooters when you fill the pit with a cloud of smoke that remains forever. But, it will certainly not make you competitive.

[Cpt Dan Blodgett, SASS #75655]

For consistent roll crimp cases need to be close to same length. 44-40 does no have much of a shoulder but there is potential for cases to grow during full length resizing measure and trim as necessary

[Fingers McGee]

Hey Art:

2.2 cc Lee dipper FFg or FFFg.

No need for any powder more coarse

Seat the bullit & crimp.

For your rifle, a 200 grain Mav Dutchman from Springfield Slim would be a better choice as it holds a ton of lube and you can shoot all day without swabbing the barrel.

Probably need to swab if using the Chey, altho I can't say for sure.

However, when accuracy goes because you run out of lube and get a hard fouling ring near the end of the barrel, it goes big-time.

no wad or drop tube needed

It really is that simple.

--Dawg

What he ^ said. +, I've tried Cheycast bullets and found they don't carry enough lube. Have never had a fouling problem with Mav Dutchman 200 gr Big Lube bullets under 32 gr fffg Goex/Grafs/Scheutzen.

 

Fingers (Show Me MO smoke) McGee

[John Boy]

Now that is a right stout load!

Not really ... I reload 215gr bullets for my cast iron action Ballard at 969 fps

[Deadeye George]

JUST A SUGGESTION........... A few days ago I ordered some of Springfield Slims "Big Lube" bullets for the 44-40 caliber and he calls them the 44MAV 200g but I hear everyone here referring to MAV Dutchman bullets and at first I was confused until I was told they were two in the same bullet.

 

Is there a reason they are called MAV Dutchman? If not, how about just calling them what they are being sold as on Slim's website, it might keep some other newbies from getting confused down the road or am I just easily confused?

[Jefro, SASS#69420]

Is there a reason they are called MAV Dutchman? If not, how about just calling them what they are being sold as on Slim's website, it might keep some other newbies from getting confused down the road or am I just easily confused?

Cause that's the name of the bullet and mold.....Mav 44 is just an aberv. Good luck

 

Jefro Relax-Enjoy

[Cowboy Rick, SASS #49739L]

Swap that hard-cast Chey for a softer lead slug!

 

BP will make maybe 9,000 PSI chamber pressure with a full case. A "hard cast" alloy bullet is about 12 Brinnell (6% Sb, 2%Sn) air cooled. That takes about 14,000 PSI to make it upset into grooves well and provide best accuracy.

 

Powder to the base of the slug will give you all the powder you need - no need for a drop tube to cram even more in!

 

Don't let the seating and crimping step(s) that you do jam the case mouth into the bottom of the land above your crimp groove. The .44-40 case is so thin, it buckles and leaves a bulge that you can mike (and when real bad, you can feel) below the crimp. This will make it tough to chamber the round. For 100% protection from bulged case necks, I use a Redding profile crimp die. Makes a tight crimp and also "resizes" the neck area. Much better than the Lee factory crimp (by my measurements and experience) and whole lots better than the expedient folks on here resort to - running the loaded round into the SIZER die (with decapper stem removed) - which undersizes the bullet and neck immensely.

 

Oh, see, there's most likely an example of letting the case neck buckle, because the new type of brass was probably a couple thousandths longer than the old brass.

 

 

No over-powder wad needed if you have enough good BP lube on the bullet.

 

I'd suggest getting Big Lube Bullets from Springfield Slim to try out! Lots of lube to keep even a rifle barrel's fouling softened up, and it's a good quality BP lube. http://www.whyteleat...om/BigLube.html

 

Good luck, GJ

I run all my loaded rounds through a tight chambered cylinder from an old Armi San Marco 44-40 clone before boxing. I'll get one or two per hundred that won't drop because the cases are a little longer and the neck bulged. I load a couple of thousand at a time, so I wind up with a pile of 25 or so loaded bullets that won't chamber. Having been bit by the inertia impact OBD, I don't want to get these into the mix, and I really don't want to rebuild them, so I run them through a sizing die. At the ranges we shoot, the accuracy hasn't been adversely affected, and I don't loose any sleep being concerned about an OBD.

 

Springfield Slim makes great bullets. (Sometimes I feel as though I'm making his house payments!) Nothing else keeps the 30" barrels lubed the entire length of the bore.

 

CR

[Cowboy Rick, SASS #49739L]

The published Curtis's & Harvey loading data for the 44-40 is: 200gr bullet - 39gr FFFg - 1180fps

* No wad - no fillers - no drop tube!

Good luck getting 39gr into a Starline 44-40 case

 

CR

[Prairie Dawg, SASS #50329]

Here is an old post that talks about the roots of today's .45 & .44 biglube bullets:

 

From:

http://www.levergunscommunity.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=62009

 

But what about those who wanted to use a b.p. made in the U.S.? Back in 2002, a fellow with the handle PRS (Pigeon Roost Slim) had been working with the .45 Colt to develop a bullet that would carry enough lube to keep the more fouling Goex powder from fouling out in repeated shots. Lee made the mold to his specifications and it has worked very well.
Following that, a fellow with the handle “Mav Dutchman” had Lee make a similar mold for the .44-40.

[Cowboy Rick, SASS #49739L]

JUST A SUGGESTION........... A few days ago I ordered some of Springfield Slims "Big Lube" bullets for the 44-40 caliber and he calls them the 44MAV 200g but I hear everyone here referring to MAV Dutchman bullets and at first I was confused until I was told they were two in the same bullet.

 

Is there a reason they are called MAV Dutchman? If not, how about just calling them what they are being sold as on Slim's website, it might keep some other newbies from getting confused down the road or am I just easily confused?

From Dick Datstardly's web site:

 

Mav Dutchman 44 Cal 200 grain Big Lube™ six cavity mold for 44-40, 44 Mag, etc.

[Cpt Dan Blodgett, SASS #75655]

For consistent roll crimp cases need to be close to same length. 44-40 does no have much of a shoulder but there is potential for cases to grow during full length resizing measure and trim as necessary

[Major Art Tillery]

Thanks for all the info pards! Knew I could get some answers here. Sounds like Slim's bullets are the ticket.

 

 

I will be shooting these in Ruger vaquero and a newer Uberti 73. I know some of those Rugers are undersized. I usually shoot .428, so not sure what size to go with.. Well have to do some checking.

[Prairie Dawg, SASS #50329]

Slim's bullets are soft enuf that .428s shoot well out of Uberti rifles.

I shot them for years with good results.

Back in the early days, I had Remington cases, which have a thick neck and 428s in them fit nicely in my rifle.

It always shot well.

--Dawg

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

Thanks for all the info pards! Knew I could get some answers here. Sounds like Slim's bullets are the ticket.

 

 

I will be shooting these in Ruger vaquero and a newer Uberti 73. I know some of those Rugers are undersized. I usually shoot .428, so not sure what size to go with.. Well have to do some checking.

Recommend you try Slim's slugs in .429 first. With soft slugs, better to be oversize than undersize.

 

As long as your expander button is big enough so you don't crumple the case necks as you seat the slugs. I use .429 in my Uberti rifles.

 

Good luck, GJ

[Rye Miles #13621]

Hey Art:

2.2 cc Lee dipper FFg or FFFg.

No need for any powder more coarse

Seat the bullit & crimp.

For your rifle, a 200 grain Mav Dutchman from Springfield Slim would be a better choice as it holds a ton of lube and you can shoot all day without swabbing the barrel.

Probably need to swab if using the Chey, altho I can't say for sure.

However, when accuracy goes because you run out of lube and get a hard fouling ring near the end of the barrel, it goes big-time.

no wad or drop tube needed

It really is that simple.

--Dawg

+1 That's how I used to load BP, it's the only way!!

[Major Art Tillery]

Normal primers I suspect? I know some that say mag primers.... But is it that much difference?

[Prairie Dawg, SASS #50329]

Normal primers are fine.

I use Winchester in pistol loads and federals in my rifle loads.

They both work fine

--Dawg

[Driftwood Johnson, SASS #38283]

 

For consistent roll crimp cases need to be close to same length. 44-40 does no have much of a shoulder but there is potential for cases to grow during full length resizing measure and trim as necessary

Horsefeathers. I have been loading 44-40 (and 45 Colt, 45 Schofield, 44 Russian, and 38-40) for years. Have never, ever trimmed a single case. At the pressures developed by Black Powder, the cases simply do not grow at all. I keep meaning to throw away that case trimmer that is eating up valuable space on my loading bench.

 

 

Is there a reason they are called MAV Dutchman? If not, how about just calling them what they are being sold as on Slim's website, it might keep some other newbies from getting confused down the road or am I just easily confused?

 

Yeah, we call them that because a shooter named Mav Dutchman designed the mold. That is the name. Sometimes it gets abbreviated as Mav, but that is the name. And Pigeon Roost Slim designed the first Big Lube, the 45 PRS. And a couple of guys named Johnson and Peterson designed the JP 45-200, but I see it has grown to 210 grains since I designed it.

 

 

Normal primers I suspect? I know some that say mag primers.... But is it that much difference?

Black Powder is actually easier to ignite than Smokeless. There is no need for magnum primers, standard primers are fine.

[Major Art Tillery]

Normal primers are fine.

I use Winchester in pistol loads and federals in my rifle loads.

They both work fine

--Dawg

Kinda what I figured... Thanks. Order me some bullets and give it a try.. Sounds simple enough.

[John Henry Quick]

Excellent thread!

[Springfield Slim SASS #24733]

I'd have to look it up but the MAV Dutchman bullet is named that because it was designed by a guy named(I think) Marc VanDeveer, who's alias was Mav Dutchman. I have a mould box with his name on the return label somewhere. All my MAV's are from the original moulds, not the later DD versions, which have larger lube grooves, which work fine also. And Rick, I live in California in Silicon Valley,and believe me, the bullets don't even come close to paying my house payment! Never used filler in my cases, never felt the need and am too lazy to go through that much extra work, as little as it is. My 14 yr old daughter is now shooting 44-40 also, and we shoot the same ammo, so how bad could it really be! She does use my old 7.5" guns, so that helps a bit. She didn't like the shorter guns, said the longer ones were easier to aim with. Smart girl. FWIW, I generally use ffg, and save the fffg for my c&b guns.

[The Coconino Pistolero, SASS # 72432]

The 2.2 cc recipe of FFg Goex Cowboy (~ 33 gr) with the Big Lube chronographs at 1165 fps from my 24" 73 back in the day using the Federal Magnum just because. Have not measured the same load with KIK. KIK is a tad cleaner burning though than Goex.

 

 

Springfield Slim makes fine boolits too.