Fella shoulda controlled his temper....

[Hardpan Curmudgeon SASS #8967]

Moral of the story:

 

Don't let your temper get ya in trouble.

 

Colorado homeowner robbed at gunpoint may face murder charges

 

"A Colorado man who was tied up and robbed at gunpoint in his own home may face charges for shooting and killing the suspect, who was fleeing in a stolen car.

 

"The unidentified homeowner, who managed somehow to untie himself after the robbery, reportedly went outside his home and fired shots into the car at the fleeing suspect. The man in the car was reportedly identified as David Martinez, 38, who has a long criminal history of burglary, theft and drugs. Martinez crashed the car about a block later and died."

 

No tackling out of bounds!

[Utah Bob #35998]

Not clear on details yet. He supposedly confronted the robbers outside his house after freeing himself and getting a gun. If there was a confroontation and they were armed it could easily be self defense. We'll see.

[Springfield Slim SASS #24733]

He's gonna need to "write good paper' to get out of this one. Ya never know, maybe the criminal threatened to blow his brains out, and said crap like, 'maybe next time'. Maybe this guy really deserved to die. We weren't there. I feel for the guy, either way, nobody deserves this kind of hassle in their life.

[Blastmaster]

If this news report is correct:

"A Colorado man who was tied up and robbed at gunpoint in his own home may face charges for shooting and killing the suspect, who was fleeing in a stolen car,KDVR.com reported."

and

“If a guy is driving away, even if it is your vehicle that he stole, you cannot use deadly force,” Dan Recht, the expert, said."

Home owner is in deep poo!

[Marshal Mo Hare, SASS #45984]

It depends on the jurisdiction but in general once the bad guy has decided to leave, you can't use deadly force to stop him.

[Blastmaster]

It depends on the jurisdiction but in general once the bad guy has decided to leave, you can't use deadly force to stop him.

Can you think of a case where it would be OK to use deadly force on a fleeing person?

 

edit: I was referring to an ordinary citizen.

[Presidio]

Only thing I can think is that you can shoot fleeing perp only if they are shooting at you while running away.

 

 

 

Maybe there are more exceptions, but I can't think of any right now,

[Marshal Mo Hare, SASS #45984]

Can you think of a case where it would be OK to use deadly force on a fleeing person?

 

edit: I was referring to an ordinary citizen.

If you reasonably expect that the fleeing person will cause imminent harm to another person.

[Utah Bob #35998]

If you reasonably expect that the fleeing person will cause imminent harm to another person.

+1

[Colt B.A. Blastn Johnson]

Moral of the story:

 

Don't let your temper get ya in trouble.

 

Colorado homeowner robbed at gunpoint may face murder charges

 

"A Colorado man who was tied up and robbed at gunpoint in his own home may face charges for shooting and killing the suspect, who was fleeing in a stolen car.

 

"The unidentified homeowner, who managed somehow to untie himself after the robbery, reportedly went outside his home and fired shots into the car at the fleeing suspect. The man in the car was reportedly identified as David Martinez, 38, who has a long criminal history of burglary, theft and drugs. Martinez crashed the car about a block later and died."

 

No tackling out of bounds!

Makes sense to me, you cannot use deadly force on someone who is fleeing. They are not a deadly threat! You cant shoot a man in the back as he runs away either(makes sense as well)....This guy was a idiot at best(the robber and the victim) If your gonna carry a firearm with the intent to save your life and the lives of others by killing someone; you should damn well know the laws and the repercussions for your actions.

[Utah Bob #35998]

Some of you who think you just cannot use deadly force on a fleeing felon are not exactly correct.

[Sedalia Dave]

If you reasonably expect that the fleeing person will cause imminent harm to another person.

I wouldn't bet my freedom on that one. Awfully hard to prove.

 

Also highly dependent on the jurisdiction and State/local laws

[Colt B.A. Blastn Johnson]

But get this.....A police officer can shoot and kill a suspect in a car if he uses the car as a weapon (try's to run them over/aims the car at them and other officers) Not sure if a private citizen who is armed with a legal firearm can act in the same manner, I would think that they could (life was in eminent danger)

[Colt B.A. Blastn Johnson]

Makes no difference, one mans life is gone and the other one is gonna wish his was also after all the court cases and lawyer fee's

[Smoken D]

I'm in a very bad mood right now anyway, so as a retired Homicide Detective with over 20 years expirence, I'll just let the experts take over.

[Utah Bob #35998]

I'm in a very bad mood right now anyway, so as a retired Homicide Detective with over 20 years expirence, I'll just let the experts take over.

[Blastmaster]

Some of you who think you just cannot use deadly force on a fleeing felon are not exactly correct.

educate us then.

[Tom Bullweed]

In NC, a reasonable threat of imminent death, serious bodily harm, rape or any of these to another person are the causes for lethal confrontation.

Anything thing outside of these bounds is a very slippery slope leading to thin ice.

[Marshal Mo Hare, SASS #45984]

educate us then.

Reply #8, for example.

[Blastmaster]

Reply #8, for example.

I saw that.. A good one.

 

edit: I thought this thread was more directed toward the civilian population on what they could/couldn't should/shouldn't do and LE would have more latitude.

[Henry T Harrison]

When I taught the NRA home firearm course I was shocked at the number of people that thought they could shoot someone that was breaking into their parked car.

Lesson 1 at the academy was Never shoot at a moving car, if you can shoot at it you can get your ass out of the way

[Blastmaster]

When I taught the NRA home firearm course I was shocked at the number of people that thought they could shoot someone that was breaking into their parked car.

Lesson 1 at the academy was Never shoot at a moving car, if you can shoot at it you can get your ass out of the way

Think North Hollywood Bank Shootout of 1997.

[Calvin N. Hobbes, 17218]

First, the use of deadly force/homicide is a matter of state law (with a few exceptions). I am a CCW holder. In Texas, the law is this:

 

"Texas law allows a person to use force in the protection of property to prevent or terminate another’s trespass or other unlawful interference with the possession of real or personal property. Deadly force can be used in Texas when the crime against property is classified as arson, burglary, robbery, criminal mischief at night or theft at night. Deadly force may also be used to prevent a person from fleeing with property immediately after the commission of a burglary, robbery, aggravated robbery, or theft during the nighttime if the actor believes that the property cannot be recovered by any other means or the use of force other than deadly force would expose the person to a substantial risk of death or serious bodily injury." (www.uslawshield.com)

 

In Texas, the man may be justified. I was a resident and CCW holder in Colorado, before moving to Texas, and can tell you Colorado Law is basically the same. In fact, we had a similar case in Fairplay, Colorado, where a man discovered a person breaking into his car, and fatally shooting him as he tried to flee with a stolen radio. Again, by law, he may have been justified.

 

However, justified or not, there will be a long drawn out criminal, and of course, civil trial. If smart, he will look into waiving a jury trial and possibly requesting a bench trial.

 

Use of deadly force is covered extensively in Texas CCW classes, because as you see, the standard in not that high as written. However it is heavily stressed that the ensuing legal battles will be long and expensive, whatever the circumstances. We also received instruction on what to expect if we did use our weapon, no matter what the circumstances. It was:

 

1. Expect to be arrested

2. Your weapon will be seized

3. Make no statements and contact your lawyer immediately

[Henry T Harrison]

Remember that 2 ton missile is going somewhere and you're responsible for it yes there are exceptions to every rule but darn few reasons for shooting into a moving car

[Badlands Bob #61228]

If the facts are accurate in the article, the DA would have a very difficult time prosecuting this case. The Grand Jury might not even return a true bill.

[Hardpan Curmudgeon SASS #8967]

Okay, here's a curious thought...

 

If the burglary victim was the owner of the car stolen by the burglar, would he have any liability if the bad guy did damage or injury with that car?

 

Sort of an apples to wingnuts thing, but I was just remembering a traffic court visit some 40+ years ago:

 

A number of people were present to contest parking tickets, including yours truly. While waiting my turn before the judge, a young lady was called to answer the charge of parking in a bus zone.

 

When asked "how do you plea?" she replied "Not guilty, your honor!"

 

"How can you say 'not guilty' when your car was obviously parked in the bus zone?" asked the judge.

 

"Your Honor, I'd reported the car stolen days before it was found in that bus zone. I didn't leave it there, whoever stole it did!"

 

"Well, Miss [Jones], the security of your car is YOUR responsibility! And because YOU did not secure your car, it was stolen and left in that bus zone. And because it WAS in that bus zone, that bus zone couldn't be used for it's intended purpose. Pay the clerk in Room 101!"

 

Hm. Now, if the crook who had stolen the car had run over a nun herding a bunch of kindergarten kids, would the car's owner be liable? Ha! He might have saved some folk by shooting!

 

[bTW... when I read many years later her passing, I raised a glass with a "good riddance" toast to the judge.]

[Blastmaster]

First, the use of deadly force/homicide is a matter of state law (with a few exceptions). I am a CCW holder. In Texas, the law is this:

 

"Texas law allows a person to use force in the protection of property to prevent or terminate another’s trespass or other unlawful interference with the possession of real or personal property. Deadly force can be used in Texas when the crime against property is classified as arson, burglary, robbery, criminal mischief at night or theft at night. Deadly force may also be used to prevent a person from fleeing with property immediately after the commission of a burglary, robbery, aggravated robbery, or theft during the nighttime if the actor believes that the property cannot be recovered by any other means or the use of force other than deadly force would expose the person to a substantial risk of death or serious bodily injury." (www.uslawshield.com)

 

In Texas, the man may be justified. I was a resident and CCW holder in Colorado, before moving to Texas, and can tell you Colorado Law is basically the same. In fact, we had a similar case in Fairplay, Colorado, where a man discovered a person breaking into his car, and fatally shooting him as he tried to flee with a stolen radio. Again, by law, he may have been justified.

 

However, justified or not, there will be a long drawn out criminal, and of course, civil trial. If smart, he will look into waiving a jury trial and possibly requesting a bench trial.

 

Use of deadly force is covered extensively in Texas CCW classes, because as you see, the standard in not that high as written. However it is heavily stressed that the ensuing legal battles will be long and expensive, whatever the circumstances. We also received instruction on what to expect if we did use our weapon, no matter what the circumstances. It was:

 

1. Expect to be arrested

2. Your weapon will be seized

3. Make no statements and contact your lawyer immediately

Good report.

 

Say, it said,,,,"robbery, or theft during the nighttime". what happens if it was during the day?

[Calvin N. Hobbes, 17218]

"Theft at night" is a specific offense. Look at the line before listing commission of "criminal mischief at night or theft at night" as separate offense's. In other words, fleeing from a robbery can be defended against day or night with deadly force, but deadly force only used against a person fleeing theft if it is "theft at night". "Theft, "robbery", and "burglary" are all separate and specific crimes and their definitions are specific to each state.

[Capt. Billy]

The one helpful fact in the above incident is there is only the homeowner's story to be told. The perp has been permanently silenced. Let's just hope the home owner didn't shoot off his mouth, like he did his gun, without the advise of a good criminal lawyer.

[Utah Bob #35998]

Remember that 2 ton missile is going somewhere and you're responsible for it yes there are exceptions to every rule but darn few reasons for shooting into a moving car

At this point we don't know if the homeowner shot into the moving car or if the perp drove off after being shot.

The investigation, as they say, continues.

[Henry T Harrison]

Just pointing out that civilian or police officer you are as responsible for that 2 ton missile as you are for every round you fire. You are also responsible for the life of everyone in that car guilty of a crime or not

[Coyote Kincaid]

Shooting at a vehicle is a slippery slope here in Arkansas. This is a true story now. A buddy of mine got into a disagreement at his property with a guy that was intoxicated. The guy got into his truck and plowed through a fence and started doing donuts in a horse field. After scattering the horses and tearing up the field, the drunk proceeded to turn his attention to my friend. He grabbed his 30-30 out of the scabbard and fired two shots into the radiator. The truck was getting closer to him and he took aim at the front tire. The shot blew out the tire but ricocheted off the rim, through the floorplan and struck the drunk in the leg.

 

Clearly he was justified in his actions and did not want to take another person's life. The prosecuting attorney charged him with assault with a deadly weapon. Charges were reduced and he was placed on three years probation. I'm confident that it wouldn't have held up in a jury trial but he must have had his reasons for taking a plea deal.

 

We were taught in our concealed carry class to never shoot someone in the back.

[Marshal Mo Hare, SASS #45984]

 

The shot blew out the tire but ricocheted off the rim,

 

doubtful.

[Coyote Kincaid]

doubtful.

Not doubtful.

[Utah Bob #35998]

Just announced. He will not be charged.