Actions must be open in a gun cart?

[Dead_Head]

On another thread people were listing examples of rules that are frequently misinterpreted, etc.

 

Rolan Kraps listed, "Actions must be open in a gun cart".

 

I have always wondered about that as sometimes my rifle lever will close when I am sitting back against the guns on my cart or it is windy and dusty and I close the actions and put the rifle and double in gun sleeves. I have also heard from a top gunsmith that it is best to keep double barrel shotguns closed and the springs released whenever possible. I admit that I can not remember seeing it in the rulebooks.

 

I have been yelled at for not having them open at different times in the past and usually I do keep them open, but is it actually in the SASS rulebooks somewhere or just one of those rules many people assume is true?

 

I have a normal upright gun cart.

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

Good practice to keep them open in carts, if unsleeved. If in a sleeve or cover, then they can be closed. Don't believe there is a firm rule or a penalty either about the condition of carry in carts. Just avoid sweeping folks with them, and manage muzzle direction carefully.

 

Good luck, GJ

[Goody, SASS #26190]

Page 27 of the SHB, under Safety,

 

"12. Safe firearm handling is the shooter‘s responsibility. The 170-degree safety rule is in effect. Muzzle direction is important between, before, during, and after shooting a stage. A muzzle must not be allowed to ―sweep‖ the other participants at any time. Long guns shall have their actions open with chambers and magazines empty and muzzles pointed in a safe direction when transported at a match. A holstered revolver (loaded or empty) with the hammer fully down on an empty chamber or expended case is considered safe and may not be interpreted as sweeping another shooter while safely secured in the holster. Failure to manage safe muzzle direction is grounds for disqualification from the stage, and for repeated offenses, from the match."

[Coalman]

I was told no they can be closed in cart

[Coalman]

Page 27 of the SHB, under Safety,

 

"12. Safe firearm handling is the shooter‘s responsibility. The 170-degree safety rule is in effect. Muzzle direction is important between, before, during, and after shooting a stage. A muzzle must not be allowed to ―sweep‖ the other participants at any time. Long guns shall have their actions open with chambers and magazines empty and muzzles pointed in a safe direction when transported at a match. A holstered revolver (loaded or empty) with the hammer fully down on an empty chamber or expended case is considered safe and may not be interpreted as sweeping another shooter while safely secured in the holster. Failure to manage safe muzzle direction is grounds for disqualification from the stage, and for repeated offenses, from the match."

If that's the case how can anybody have there guns in a vertical cart and tip it to push it? The person pushing it and everybody behind him gets swept with muzzle

[Rolan Kraps, SASS # 24084 Life]

Replies to this thread illustrate my point.

[Blastmaster]

If that's the case how can anybody have there guns in a vertical cart and tip it to push it? The person pushing it and everybody behind him gets swept with muzzle

folk lore from long past Wire post on this topic.

 

That has been discussed numerous times in the past and like reholstering, you can not sweep yourself with muzzle of your own vertical staged LG in cart while pushing your cart. For others in the area, well, be careful, mindful and respectful.

 

Horizontal staged LG in cart is different, must be cased and muzzle pointed in a safe direction when uncasing.

 

. If LG is cased (a dust cover qualifies), then muzzle direction and or condition of action is not important.

 

Not so for sure about uncased LG with action closed and hammer cocked or uncocked in vertical cart.

 

I personally don't have a problem if shooter reopens an uncased LG in vertical cart when he becomes aware of it.

 

Blaze away, none of this is documented that I know of.

 

Rolan, What is your point? (ok, found your point, I think)

[Driftwood Johnson, SASS #38283]

 

If that's the case how can anybody have there guns in a vertical cart and tip it to push it? The person pushing it and everybody behind him gets swept with muzzle

Howdy

 

If you are tipping your cart so much that others are swept by your vertical muzzles, that is a problem. I have been at this for a long, long time, and the only person who gets swept by my muzzles when I tip the cart is me. The cart never gets angled enough to sweep anybody else.

 

Yes, they are pointing right at my head, but has been already pointed out, there is no rule against sweeping yourself. That is why the actions must be open, so even if you somehow left a live round in the chamber, the action would be open and the firearm could not discharge the live round.

 

Some folks have a problem looking down the muzzles of their own firearms, and I can certainly understand that. For myself, I have gotten used to it, particularly since the chamber is empty and the action is open. Some folks go to the extent of placing a long rod in the barrel which is long enough to pop up a noticeable amount if there is a live round in the chamber.

 

I'm with my old pard Dead Head on this. Sometimes if I am sitting on my cart and I lean back the levers close on my rifles. I just try to remember to open them again. Nobody has ever yelled at me about this, as far as I can recall.

[Gold Canyon Kid #43974]

Good practice to keep them open in carts, if unsleeved. If in a sleeve or cover, then they can be closed. Don't believe there is a firm rule or a penalty either about the condition of carry in carts. Just avoid sweeping folks with them, and manage muzzle direction carefully.

 

Good luck, GJ

I was under the impression that the RO committee ruled a few years ago on when actions could be closed in a gun cart. If your guns were in a sleeve or cover they still had to be open. If they were in a zippered case in a gun cart or other means of carrying them, for example the actions could be closed. Back then I had an actual door that closed on my long guns and was under the impression I could close the actions within this closed door arrangement.

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

I was under the impression that the RO committee ruled a few years ago on when actions could be closed in a gun cart. If your guns were in a sleeve or cover they still had to be open. If they were in a zippered case in a gun cart or other means of carrying them, for example the actions could be closed. Back then I had an actual door that closed on my long guns and was under the impression I could close the actions within this closed door arrangement.

 

If they "ruled" on this, it sure did not make it into any of the rule books that have been revised several times since.

 

And with no penalty prescribed, it's essentially a suggestion, not a rule. Just MHO

 

Around here, if your cover doesn't fit on the gun with the action open, no one complains if the gun is put into the cover with action closed. As long as muzzles are controlled.

 

Good luck, GJ

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

I was under the impression that the RO committee ruled a few years ago on when actions could be closed in a gun cart. If your guns were in a sleeve or cover they still had to be open. If they were in a zippered case in a gun cart or other means of carrying them, for example the actions could be closed. Back then I had an actual door that closed on my long guns and was under the impression I could close the actions within this closed door arrangement.

 

 

 

If they "ruled" on this, it sure did not make it into any of the rule books that have been revised several times since.

 

And with no penalty prescribed, it's essentially a suggestion, not a rule. Just MHO

 

Good luck, GJ

 

There is an UNWRITTEN Match Director's option to allow "actions closed" while being carried in a case or scabbard. Most have expanded that to include enclosed gun carts.

The ROC has never made any rulings contrary to the SHB rule as quoted in post #3.

The "MD Exception" was instituted at the very FIRST TG Summit meeting.

The "PTB" have ordered that exception NOT be codified in the rulebooks.

 

Many clubs (e.g. the entire PNW Region) made a 'blanket ruling' post-Summit that the exception would be recognized by every local club and some have it written into their club Range Rules.

Other MDs/matches/Regions do NOT recognize that exception and require that actions be OPEN at all times per the rules.

I suppose that the applicable penalty might be "unsafe firearm handling" if one wanted to press the issue.

Again...that would be up to the Match Director or club officers at a given venue.

[Warden Callaway]

A guy at our matches has a cart that has the guns placed at about 30 degrees from horizontal. The guns ride butt down and muzzles pointing up at the operating end of the cart. When pushed along, the guns are pretty much horizontal.

 

Another pard closes his guns and slips a sock over them.

[Rolan Kraps, SASS # 24084 Life]

Rolan, What is your point? (ok, found your point, I think)

 

It is likely on top of my head!

[Carolina Gunslinger]

You know, HDEC(Hammer Down Empty Chamber) beats action open at every turn. The hammer is down so there is no energy stored in the firing mechanisms...doesn't work for the SxS I know, but all the other guns are golden. There is less entrance way for dirt and debris with the action closed and improved stability in storage racks with streamlined firearms.

There is nothing more annoying than a breeze blowing up dust at the range and that little voice in the back of your head worrying about open actions.

 

I also believe that the abandonment rules need revision. Empty shells on carriers or under hammers have never injured anyone and all weapons must clear at the end of the stage. The weapon is safe in either case. Live ammunition... Different story.

[Cat Brules]

If it bothers you or others to such a degree as to be problematic (never has been for me), my suggestion is to stick modified (for each weapon) yellow action flags in each weapon and call it good. Assemble all your flags on lanyards, hanging from your cart, to keep them from getting lost or misplaced. With the flags installed in place, your weapons' actions should pass the test of being open, since with the flags in, the weapons will be both unable to close completely or chamber a round. (Advise others to leave your weapons alone.) Refer any serious complaints to the match director. I seriously doubt a match director will call you wrong. If he does, big deal, right?

 

As I said I've not seen this issue to be a problem.

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

You know, HDEC(Hammer Down Empty Chamber) beats action open at every turn. The hammer is down so there is no energy stored in the firing mechanisms...doesn't work for the SxS I know, but all the other guns are golden. There is less entrance way for dirt and debris with the action closed and improved stability in storage racks with streamlined firearms.

There is nothing more annoying than a breeze blowing up dust at the range and that little voice in the back of your head worrying about open actions.

That is exactly the reason (dust, rain, snow, volcanic ash, etc.) that the MD exception was originally instituted...with the caveat that it would require extreme diligence at the ULT. Apparently, some regions/states/ranges don't have that problem.

 

I also believe that the abandonment rules need revision. Empty shells on carriers or under hammers have never injured anyone and all weapons must clear at the end of the stage. The weapon is safe in either case. Live ammunition... Different story.

Good luck with that one.

[Carolina Gunslinger]

I got a smirk out of him! I figured it was water running up a rope in light of the recent revision.

[Blastmaster]

I also believe that the abandonment rules need revision. Empty shells on carriers or under hammers have never injured anyone and all weapons must clear at the end of the stage. The weapon is safe in either case. Live ammunition... Different story.

Agree, empties on/in carrier/action have never injured anyone, Neither has live ammo, until the trigger is tripped. My pistol in the night stand with one in the tube, no safety on, has never discharged either, but no one else is in the house but me.

 

However, in a public place, where some unauthorized person (gun expeditor ) could possible handle said firearm, who knows. Or in rare cases, the gun falls off prop. With the very wide degree of gun skilled shooters we have, why not error on the side of safety and leave things as they are, empty (use to be open and empty). Absolutely, you can not assure the discarded firearm will be ammo case free, but at least everyone is way more conscience of the state the firearm is in when discarded and for the infractions, the shooters gun handling skill should be improved.

 

I saw a very rare case of a shooter sitting down, leaving, picking back up, decocking and lord knows what else, a malfunctioning rifle,,,, part way through a rifle string. Shooter is experienced, but some how got disorintated with the situation.

[CodyMaverick]

I see this custom of storing the guns in the cart with the actions open as a courtesy and a comfort to everyone else present.

 

While HDEC would be the safest, who besides (hopefully) myself really knows that chamber is empty?

 

With my '73 and my pistols, when the hammer is down the firing pin will be in contact with a primer if one is there.

 

As for the dust and debris issue, I have some sleeves I got from Wooden Works West I put over them that have slits in them to allow others to see the status of the action.

 

I do get uncomfortable when I find myself standing behind one of those carts where the guns are leaning way back and the muzzles are pointing at my face. The only time I want to look down the barrel of any gun is when I'm shining my flashlight up the other end of it.

[CodyMaverick]

btw; you often can not be absolutely sure the case is empty or not unless you take it out. You may be confident your gun is safe but the rest of us would like to be able to share in that confidence.

[Carolina Gunslinger]

btw; you often can not be absolutely sure the case is empty or not unless you take it out. You may be confident your gun is safe but the rest of us would like to be able to share in that confidence.

Good enough for the revolver, but not the rifle eh? The expended rounds under the hammer share the same mystery on the line. If you're looking at your revolver in such a way as to see into the cylinder face...you're not handling the gun safely. As an RO I'm starting to say STOP when that's happening on the line on or off the clock. Which is why we have the unloading table, where the shells come out and any penalties are assessed.

[CodyMaverick]

Good enough for the revolver, but not the rifle eh? The expended rounds under the hammer share the same mystery on the line. If you're looking at your revolver in such a way as to see into the cylinder face...you're not handling the gun safely. As an RO I'm starting to say STOP when that's happening on the line on or off the clock. Which is why we have the unloading table, where the shells come out and any penalties are assessed.

 

I think I know where you're headed with that one and that would be a topic for a whole new thread. If you start one, I expect more than a few regulars here will say it's been talked to death. The only reasonable explanation I've heard for the distinction in the rules about it is: That's the rule! Learn it! Live it!

 

As far as looking at the face of the cylinder to see if there's any live rounds in it, well that's just stupid.

[Utah Bob #35998]

I hope Phantom gets well and hurries back here.

Just so he can say "Oy!"

[Blastmaster]

We can mark this topic off the 2016 Bucket List of Topics.

[Two Spurs]

 

I hope Phantom gets well and hurries back here.

Just so he can say "Oy!"

 

 

Me too- but I don't even know if he will ever be up for parole................

[Tom Bullweed]

My interpretations of the 170-rules are:

1. There are about 170 ways that the 170-rule is broken in an average monthly match.

2. Do my best to keep guns pointed downrange even during holstering, carrying to/from firing line (even though most people carry them pointed straight up) and while in my cart.

[Santa Fe River Stan,36999L]

The 170 applies on the actual firing line. There are plenty of ranges where the loading and unloading tables are uprange from the actual firing line.

 

Generally straight is a good rule to follow when away from the actual firing line.

 

Stan

[Chicken Scratch]

a lot of ranges (like ours) require guns away from the firing line must be

1. in a case, or

2. flagged, (open lever = flagged)

 

it's a blanket rule to ensure no one is walking around with loaded weapons

and the rule goes for anyone free shooting or competing in all competitions

 

Scratch

[Wild Bill Blackerby SASS # 34989]

So, in the end - it's still ok to yell at Dead Head.

 

Excellent!! Look forward to the spring...

[Dead_Head]

Thanks, you scum sucking pig ...