Deadeye George Posted January 20, 2016 Share Posted January 20, 2016 I recently purchased a couple of "Old Model" Vaquero revolvers in 45 Colt. I started out with the "mouse fart" loads but the more I shoot them, the more I want more of a bang so I have been slowly inching up towards "Real" loads still staying within SASS power levels. The Hornady reloading manual has two sections for 45 Colt. Hornady says the second or stouter loads are for the T/Contender and Ruger Blackhawk guns ONLY and not to use the loads in the older revolvers or their "replicas". I called Hornady and was told NOT to load the stouter loads in the Vaquero revolvers since they are not built for it and that's fine but..... I have an 1873 "replica" rifle from Uberti chambered in .357 and am now looking at buying the same rifle in 45 Colt. I would really like to shoot full factory 45 Colt loads through the rifle in non-SASS shooting but if it too is considered a replica I'm wondering if the Uberti rifles are not built strong enough to stand full factory loads. Any thoughts, does anyone shoot "factory" 45 Colt loads through their Uberti rifles or as far as that goes does anyone shoot factory loads through their 357 magnum rifles? I would think that if the rifles are stamped 45 Colt or .357, that they should be able to shoot any factory ammo you feed them, replica or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carolina Gunslinger Posted January 20, 2016 Share Posted January 20, 2016 Old models are the same frame as the blackhawks...they will take a big boy load. The new models aren't as tough they say... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Driftwood Johnson, SASS #38283 Posted January 20, 2016 Share Posted January 20, 2016 Howdy Hornady misinformed you.Perhaps they misunderstood you. As long as you have the 'original model' Vaqueros, not the smaller New Vaquero built on a smaller frame, you can shoot the so called 'Ruger Only' loads in them. The 'original model' Vaqueros were built on the same large frame as the Ruger Blackhawks that Hornady is telling you their loads are safe for. Just be sure you really have the large 'original model' Vaqueros and not the smaller New Vaquero. What ever the situation, you most certainly can shoot SAAMI max pressure 45 Colt loads in both your Vaqueros and your 1873 rifle. Your 1873 rifle was proofed in Italy with loads developing about 1/3 more pressure than standard loads. SAAMI max pressure is 14,000 PSI. You should not go over that with your rifle, but most any factory 45 Colt load will be OK. You do not have to restrict your loads to 'Cowboy' loads. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Desert Pete SASS #42168 Posted January 20, 2016 Share Posted January 20, 2016 I have a pair of 45 Colt OMVs from around the year 2000. My brother has a pair from the same era in 44 magnum. They are essentially the same guns. From time to time I have shot 300 grain bullets out of them without incident. I generally carry one with this load when I bow hunt. And, no I will not share load data. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blastmaster Posted January 20, 2016 Share Posted January 20, 2016 A full case of FF BP or sub in 45 Colt case with 255g bullet will get you to the Big Boy load for sure. If you want more than that, wellllll, OK! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 Posted January 20, 2016 Share Posted January 20, 2016 Perhaps a simple table would be useful, as there are several terms and models being tossed out by the OP that it seems are not well understood. ================================================================================================= A "factory", "standard", "SAAMI pressure", "Colt revolver" .45 Colt load will produce less than 14,000 PSI pressure. It would be safe in any revolver or rifle that was factory stamped .45 Colt. That would include New Model Vaqueros, Uberti toggle link rifles like the Henry, 66 or 73. Colt Single Action Army and all the clone single action revolvers. Etc. And, any amount of BP in a .45 Colt case will very easily stay under this pressure level. A previous post in this thread is not correct that such a load would exceed the SAAMI pressure levels. ============================================================================================= A "T/C or Blackhawk only" or "+P" .45 Colt load really has no pressure limit set by the industry standards group, SAAMI. Hornady has in their loading manuals decided on a pressure level (which they don't state) that through their testing is safe in at least the following guns: A Thompson Contender break open pistol or rifle, or a Ruger Blackhawk. ============================================================================================== Now, it is very likely that you can stretch the limits to just these two guns to more designs, since higher-strength .45 Colt guns continue to be developed. (As DJ stated above) an original model Ruger Vaquero is also on the Blackhawk frame, so the original Vaquero revolver will handle these loads. Colt Anaconda, BFR and Freedom Arms revolvers are good with most of these pressures, too. Henry Arms with their Big Boy rifle has been rumored to have stated that their rifle will also handle this pressure level. Most folks believe that Winchester 92s and 94s and Marlin 94s will handle these pressures, also. But, the shooter must know what he is doing to apply any particular load to any particular gun listed here! A New Model Vaquero is a smaller frame gun and will NOT handle these high-pressure loads. For other guns, you would need to check with the manufacturer if you really wanted to run the "T/C and Blackhawk" level ammo, for the manufacturer's recommendation! Most manufacturers will not be willing to give you the OK to shoot that high-pressure ammo, as there is NO INDUSTRY STANDARD for how high that pressure can go! There are some brands of speciality .45 Colt ammo that is loaded to pressure levels falling in the High Pressure region, such as some Buffalo Bore, Grizzly Ammunition, Cor-Bon, Doubletap, and other hunting ammo. You MUST be smart enough to read the box to find out if you are buying such high pressure ammo, and be safe with it. I would think that if the rifles are stamped 45 Colt or .357, that they should be able to shoot any factory ammo you feed them, replica or not. You are generally correct. Except if you try to shoot "factory" ammo loaded to pressures over the SAAMI pressure levels, like some stuff that gets labeled "+P" or even "+P+". Then you had really better know what you are doing. I don't like manufacturers (or shooters) calling specialty ammo which exceeds the SAAMI pressure limit - "Factory" ammo. That confuses folks! There is no substitute for paying attention to the details! Good luck, GJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sedalia Dave Posted January 20, 2016 Share Posted January 20, 2016 The loads listed as Contender/Ruger only listed in reloading manuals exceeded SAAMI 45 Colt pressures by a significant amount. In some cases these loads are more than twice SAAMI 45 colt pressures. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Driftwood Johnson, SASS #38283 Posted January 20, 2016 Share Posted January 20, 2016 The loads listed as Contender/Ruger only listed in reloading manuals exceeded SAAMI 45 Colt pressures by a significant amount. In some cases these loads are more than twice SAAMI 45 colt pressures. Would you care to document that? The only reference I have to a 45 Colt Ruger and Contender Only load is in my 13th edition of the Speer manual. The pressure quoted is 'up to 25,000 CUP'. That is not more than twice SAAMI 45 Colt pressure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cusz M. Dutch SASS Life 55326 Posted January 20, 2016 Share Posted January 20, 2016 google Paco Kelly if you want some real Big Boy loads for your OMV Rugers. They work great in 92 rifles for 45 Colt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yusta B. Posted January 20, 2016 Share Posted January 20, 2016 Just don't run any Corbon or Buffalo Bore stuff in the '73. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Driftwood Johnson, SASS #38283 Posted January 20, 2016 Share Posted January 20, 2016 Just don't run any Corbon or Buffalo Bore stuff in the '73. Sigh......I wish I had a dollar for every time I have said this. Some of the stuff Buffalo Bore makes is perfectly fine to run in any firearm chambered for SAAMI spec ammo. If you go to their website they have very specific warnings about which of their loads can be fired safely in specific firearms. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Bullweed Posted January 20, 2016 Share Posted January 20, 2016 Omvs are tanks, but lots of heavy loads will increase the wear on any gun. There is also safety concerns since we shoot steel targets at relatively close ranges. Have fun. Be safe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
irish ike, SASS #43615 Posted January 20, 2016 Share Posted January 20, 2016 An even better limit is.......what is the maximum allowable FPS defined by SASS for pistols. We all know the low but! We've had shooters show up with full nuclear loads in 45 and 44 mag. It is not pleasent to be near them and it raises hell on steel targets.Especialy those set at SASS, recommended, minimum distances. We usually take them aside and say...'do you know that,,,,,," Ike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sedalia Dave Posted January 21, 2016 Share Posted January 21, 2016 Would you care to document that? The only reference I have to a 45 Colt Ruger and Contender Only load is in my 13th edition of the Speer manual. The pressure quoted is 'up to 25,000 CUP'. That is not more than twice SAAMI 45 Colt pressure. Hodgdon's online reloading data. When I get to a real PC I can post the actual published pressures. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Desert Pete SASS #42168 Posted January 21, 2016 Share Posted January 21, 2016 Would you care to document that? The only reference I have to a 45 Colt Ruger and Contender Only load is in my 13th edition of the Speer manual. The pressure quoted is 'up to 25,000 CUP'. That is not more than twice SAAMI 45 Colt pressure. Max pressure from the Hodgon's online data is 30,100. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sedalia Dave Posted January 21, 2016 Share Posted January 21, 2016 Max pressure from the Hodgon's online data is 30,100. That is actually higher than SAAMI pressures for factory 45-70 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mud Marine,SASS#54686 Life Posted January 21, 2016 Share Posted January 21, 2016 Dump the smokeless and simply fill your cartridge cases with BP, compress it and go wild. Lots of boom, flames and smoke plus recoil and you won't blowup your revolvers and rifle while having a great time. Cowboy Fast Draw Association limits to 1000fps. Why would anyone need lore to shoot steel targets at 7+ yards? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J.D. Daily Posted January 21, 2016 Share Posted January 21, 2016 Dump the smokeless and simply fill your cartridge cases with BP, compress it and go wild. Lots of boom, flames and smoke plus recoil and you won't blowup your revolvers and rifle while having a great time. Cowboy Fast Draw Association limits to 1000fps. Why would anyone need lore to shoot steel targets at 7+ yards? I don't know why CFDA would have a velocity limit when at competitions the ammo (45LC case with loose 209 primer pocket, 209 primer and wax filled plastic cup) is furnished by the event. This may not apply at monthly club matches? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Driftwood Johnson, SASS #38283 Posted January 21, 2016 Share Posted January 21, 2016 Max pressure from the Hodgon's online data is 30,100. Thanks! I went to Hodgdon's sight and I actually see one load that has a max pressure of 30.400 PSI. Of course the velocity is 1383 fps, way over our 1000 fps limit out of a revolver. Most of the loads in that section are over our Max velocity requirement. Sure won't be trying any of those loads any time soon in my Colts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noz Posted January 21, 2016 Share Posted January 21, 2016 I have a pair of 45 Colt OMVs from around the year 2000. My brother has a pair from the same era in 44 magnum. They are essentially the same guns. From time to time I have shot 300 grain bullets out of them without incident. I generally carry one with this load when I bow hunt. And, no I will not share load data. 310 gr gas checked bullet and quite a bit of W296. Gets exciting on both ends. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Boy Posted January 21, 2016 Share Posted January 21, 2016 George - pick a lead bullet loading data that suits you ... http://reloadammo.com/45cload.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Badlands Beady Posted January 21, 2016 Share Posted January 21, 2016 George - pick a lead bullet loading data that suits you ... http://reloadammo.com/45cload.htm 404 Not Found Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blastmaster Posted January 22, 2016 Share Posted January 22, 2016 404 Not Found try this. http://reloadammo.com/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mud Marine,SASS#54686 Life Posted January 22, 2016 Share Posted January 22, 2016 CFDA;s limit is for all matches.Big matches require a certified loader. Of course they have a rule. I really don't get your point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hashknife Cowboy Posted January 22, 2016 Share Posted January 22, 2016 I shoot standard spec loads for .45 with either smokeless or BP sub (777). Whether 205 gr or 250 gr, I like big bullets. I shoot them out of OMV, NMV and SAA. Never a problem, join the club Pard! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirty Dan Dawkins Posted January 22, 2016 Share Posted January 22, 2016 I would hang out in the Cast Boolits Forum....lots more info over there. http://castboolits.gunloads.com/forum.php?s=466800117b61bf66c1eda8b496763921 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cpt Dan Blodgett, SASS #75655 Posted January 25, 2016 Share Posted January 25, 2016 If ruger offers a 44 magnum in the model it is built to take 44 magnum pressures with the 44 magnum cylinder. The frame is built to take 44 mag pressure but if one bores out the cylinder to 45 colt even if it was ruger the cylinder is no longer as strong as the 44 mag cylinder. The new model vaquero is built much closer to 1873 piecemaker dimendion. The smaller cylinder and lighter frame not being strong enough to handle 44 mag pressures lead ruger not to chamber them in 44 mag. Think the bottom line is the safest way to get a gun to have 44 magnum performance is to start with a 44 magnum and not to overload a 45 colt. Yes the old model vaquero is essentially a cowboy sighted super black hawk with a much larger cylinder than either a new vaquero or piecemaker and it's Italian clones but I for one have never seen ruger publish a pressure limit on the 45 colt model. We know by virtue of factory chambering the 44 mag is safe to shoot at 44 mag pressures. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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