Sandhills Writer #35598 Posted December 22, 2015 Share Posted December 22, 2015 I have a 1860 Pietta Colt 44 cal. open top, I am putting a 45 LC R&D cylinder in it. Is a .452 hard cast bullet okay to use, or should I use a soft lead bullet? The groove diameter is .451. Wondering if the open top design can take the pressures of a hard cast cowboy load. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goody, SASS #26190 Posted December 22, 2015 Share Posted December 22, 2015 Be fine a Cowboy levels. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 Posted December 22, 2015 Share Posted December 22, 2015 The limited pressures that an open top can take, calls for light loads. Light loads in .45 Colt might only make 6,000 PSI (chamber pressure). Hard slugs (92% lead, 6% antimony, 2% tin is common for commercially cast bullets) need at least 12,000 psi to expand (obturate, as BD stated). So, you won't get best accuracy and run a strong risk of heavy leading in the barrel using commercially hard alloy bullets. And, the open tops have a barrel that was designed for soft lead ball. Shallow rifling. Damage? Not necessarily right away. Depends much more upon how heavy your loads are. The alloy used in the cast bullet in a 45 Colt CARTRIDGE load will make very little difference in PRESSURE - almost all that comes from the powder. Unless you are using a slug way oversize, like .455" If you are set on using hard cast bullets in .45 Colt cartridges out of the conversion cylinder in the open top, do it. It is your gun, after all. An aside - OP - Kinda considered poor style to ask the same question an hour later on the same forum and fish for different answers...... You can find on almost any forum someone who will tell you jumping off the Empire State building will be OK, too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nate Kiowa Jones #6765 Posted December 23, 2015 Share Posted December 23, 2015 Slightly oversize in the .001/.002 is not a problem for most of the CB pistols. But, in your case you are courting disaster. First off the 1860 does not have a top strap closed or "O" frame design say like the Remington. So it is not as strong. So, the hard cast & oversize projectile will stress the arbor to frame connection. Plus, the rack and pinion style rammer of the 1860 may not hold up seating those projectiles. That said, I shoot remington 58's. Have been for a long time. I even used one for a local BP handgun silhouette game. That gun was extremely accurate using a .470 soft lead ball. Ramming these sear off a large lead ring and left a longer flat on the side of the ball that gripped the rifling really well. I would never consider that size ball in an 1860 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brooklyn Slim Posted December 23, 2015 Share Posted December 23, 2015 I attempted to load a .452 hard cast bullet using the Tower of Power into an 1860 cylinder and a 1858 cylinder (stainless). Did not work. First problem was keeping the bullet squared up, tended to tilt to one side. Second, applying too much pressure, and shouldn't be that hard. I read in one of the myriad of internet articles that the face of the cylinder should be beveled so the bullet would be squeezed (swagged ?) into the cylinder. I believe the string I posted on paper cartridges had a video showing the use of bullets in the paper cartridges. Didn't think that was a good idea, Like NKJ suggests, I'll stick with soft lead, and try oversized balls. B Slim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boggus Deal #64218 Posted December 23, 2015 Share Posted December 23, 2015 Slightly oversize in the .001/.002 is not a problem for most of the CB pistols. But, in your case you are courting disaster. I attempted to load a .452 hard cast bullet using the Tower of Power into an 1860 cylinder and a 1858 cylinder (stainless). Like NKJ suggests, I'll stick with soft lead, and try oversized balls. B Slim Gentlemen, he is talking about loading them in 45 Colt cartridges in a conversion cylinder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prairie Dawg, SASS #50329 Posted December 23, 2015 Share Posted December 23, 2015 Round Balls loaded in cartridges work very well for what we do, are easy on the gun, and inexpensive to load. You can use smokeless, black, APP, doesn't matter. My 1860s will hit the rifle targets every time with these round ball loads. And, like I said, they do not stress the gun any more than shooting RB out of the percussion cylinder --Dawg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ol Number4 Posted December 24, 2015 Share Posted December 24, 2015 Sandhills, Like Kiowa said, it may introduce some significant stress over a softer alloy. But as the Dawg says the soft round balls would work well. Me, I'd stay with soft on those open top frames. Ol' #4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nate Kiowa Jones #6765 Posted December 24, 2015 Share Posted December 24, 2015 Gentlemen, he is talking about loading them in 45 Colt cartridges in a conversion cylinder. Yep, missed that part. However, knowing the limitations of the open top design, over the long haul soft .451's would be better Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boggus Deal #64218 Posted December 24, 2015 Share Posted December 24, 2015 Yep, missed that part. However, knowing the limitations of the open top design, over the long haul soft .451's would be better I certainly agree! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colorado Coffinmaker Posted December 24, 2015 Share Posted December 24, 2015 I shoot three different pair of Pietta 1860 frame guns with R&D - R&D type cylinders. I shoot three different projectiles. No. 1 is an out of production 130Gr HBWC sized 451/2, No. 2 is a standard cast 160Gr RNFP, sized 452 and No. 3 is a 452 Round Ball. I DO NOT shoot any of them with 45 Colt cases with standard 45 Colt loads. I shoot ALL of them with Cowboy 45 Special cases. Smokeless loaded light (cowboy load) and APP, full case. After about 20 years as a CAS Gunsmith, I do not recommend shooting full SAMMI level 45 Colt ammunition thru a cylinder converted Cap and Ball frame. There is a single attachment point for the barrel assembly. The Arbor and it's wedge. The gun is going to shoot loose very quickly. The cylinder is made and proof'd for SAMMI 45 Colt. The gun itself is not. Loaded light, OK. Loaded to 45 Colt SAMMI with heavy bullets ..... not a real good idea. Coffinmaker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pee Wee #15785 Posted December 24, 2015 Share Posted December 24, 2015 Prairie Dawg My 1860s will hit the rifle targets every time with these round ball loads. Prairie Dawg when I shot with you I don't remember you 60's even hitting the pistol targets every time :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandhills Writer #35598 Posted December 24, 2015 Author Share Posted December 24, 2015 I decided to use a dead soft lead bullet. 255 gr. rnfp, and 6.5 grains of Universal Clays in a 45 LC case. This is the lowest load that Hodgen has in their cowboy loading manuel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prairie Dawg, SASS #50329 Posted December 25, 2015 Share Posted December 25, 2015 Pee Wee...........................Now you know that the terms "Prairie Dawg" & "Clean" are rarely used in the same sentence Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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