MTC- a new bone to chew on

[Most Wanted]

I know this is history but I think you got gyped big time. I believe the penalty for that single bullet stops after it struck the first no-shoot (horn), a 10second for hitting a no shoot (do not add a miss on top of that nor anything else it hit because of ricochet). Your's would make a good WTC discussion.

Glad you are back.

A perfect example why ricochets have no useful purpose in a shooting Competition. Live by the sword you die by the sword.

 

Some people are in favor of a bullet that ricochets off the ground and hitting the proper target is a hit ( unwritten rule ). Do you think those same people would take a P if it ricocheted into the wrong target or would they then argue for the miss. After all I'm sure Cowboys were killed by friendly fire ricochets too.

 

I submit since it's not in the rule book it would be very easy to get Rid of it. Thanks. MW

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

Pale Wolf, that sounds like a fun stage! Except, maybe, for the no shoot targets. Did ya'll use 2 rifles or reload?

That was at one of the Umpqua Regulators "original" True Grit matches...IIRC, we were reloading all firearms (at least once) back then.

After one match where a couple of posses were still shooting as the sun went down at dinner time, we've since changed the format to use two rifles, four revolvers (all preloaded at the LT) and at least 10 SG rounds per stage. Minimum of 50 shots for each of 10 stages.

it IS fun!!

 

I know this is history but I think you got gyped big time. I believe the penalty for that single bullet stops after it struck the first no-shoot (horn), a 10second for hitting a no shoot (do not add a miss on top of that nor anything else it hit because of ricochet). Your's would make a good WTC discussion.

Glad you are back.

 

Thanks...the surgeries went well yesterday (although NOT the hoped for transplant)

 

The rules for the True Grit matches are very CLEAR regarding any hits on no-shoot targets; same as at EoT when we're using a stationary "no-shoot" behind a swinger or other moving "distractor"...all HITS count (either for or against the shooter).

In that "Rustler" scenario, the premise was that the Regulator's pay would be docked for every steer wounded or killed...thus the multiple penalties, regardless of HOW they were incurred.

We sometimes also have stages where, theoretically, there are NO MISSES, as long as the shooter brings enough reloads (as necessary) to end up hitting every target required.

 

Pale (Cow Killer) Wolf

[Blastmaster]

That was at one of the Umpqua Regulators "original" True Grit matches...IIRC, we were reloading all firearms (at least once) back then.

After one match where a couple of posses were still shooting as the sun went down at dinner time, we've since changed the format to use two rifles, four revolvers (all preloaded at the LT) and at least 10 SG rounds per stage. Minimum of 50 shots for each of 10 stages.

it IS fun!!

 

 

Thanks...the surgeries went well yesterday (although NOT the hoped for transplant)

 

The rules for the True Grit matches are very CLEAR regarding any hits on no-shoot targets; same as at EoT when we're using a stationary "no-shoot" behind a swinger or other moving "distractor"...all HITS count (either for or against the shooter).

In that "Rustler" scenario, the premise was that the Regulator's pay would be docked for every steer wounded or killed...thus the multiple penalties, regardless of HOW they were incurred.

We sometimes also have stages where, theoretically, there are NO MISSES, as long as the shooter brings enough reloads (as necessary) to end up hitting every target required.

 

Pale (Cow Killer) Wolf

In that case, it was spelled out and rewards & penalties were distributed correctly.

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

In that case, it was spelled out and rewards & penalties were distributed correctly.

 

Absolutely.

Anytime a stage includes a scenario, prop, or target that has the potential for "issues", the instructions should include a preemptive "ruling" to head off any arguments...IMO.

e.g. reactive targets with flying birds as "must engage" no-miss "bonus" targets as the last rounds of the stage.

[Blastmaster]

 

Absolutely.

Anytime a stage includes a scenario, prop, or target that has the potential for "issues", the instructions should include a preemptive "ruling" to head off any arguments...IMO.

e.g. reactive targets with flying birds as "must engage" no-miss "bonus" targets as the last rounds of the stage.

that would be called 'Good Stage Writing' Inform the posse in writing, what the intent is and whatever limits or freedoms you want to impose.

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

 

Absolutely.

Anytime a stage includes a scenario, prop, or target that has the potential for "issues", the instructions should include a preemptive "ruling" to head off any arguments...IMO.

e.g. reactive targets with flying birds as "must engage" no-miss "bonus" targets as the last rounds of the stage.

 

 

that would be called 'Good Stage Writing' Inform the posse in writing, what the intent is and whatever limits or freedoms you want to impose.

 

Novel concept, eh?!

 

 

[Blastmaster]

 

 

 

Novel concept, eh?!

 

 

At small club monthlies, where there is only one posse, you don't get any better stage writing,,, BUT... through question and answers section, after stage is read, everyone gets the intent, or what is allowed or not allowed. Everyone has heard the same thing. Or at least at the clubs I shoot at.

[Gawd Awful]

Are you sure? Under normal circumstances, hitting a shotgun target with a pistol is a P. If that's not a bullet 'creating a penalty' before hitting the correct target, than I think I don't understand what you're driving at.

Your statement is incorrect, Hitting any kind of target other than a pistol target with a pistol is not a "P", it is a miss. This is probably the most common "wrong call". And that is what PaleWolf is saying in his post.

 

Hitting the correct targets in the wrong order is a "P", hitting the correct type of target, in the correct order, from the wrong position is a "P",

 

Hitting the wrong "type of target" for the firearm is simply a "Miss"

 

The example always given is:

 

If a shooter makes a mistake and engages the pistol targets with his

Rifle, then engages the rifle targets with his pistol to "make up for it", the correct call is 20 misses.

[Jabez Cowboy,SASS # 50129]

No Call ... Next shooter

 

 

Jabez Cowboy

[Creeker, SASS #43022]

This is very easy to clarify.

When (as in this case) every bullet has a designated target - the question is simply "Did the bullet designated for that target - strike that target?"

What else that bullet may have done before or after striking the CORRECT designated target (excepting safety issues or designated no hit props) is of ZERO consequence or matter.

 

Lets just say the bullet had struck target one and THEN hit target two, I'm pretty sure no one would be arguing for a Procedural because the shooters second shot again struck target two.

And if anyone did argue that, we would dismiss it with the response "The correct bullet hit the correct target - nothing else the bullet does matters"

 

Why is the OP example any different - one bullet fired - correct target struck.

 

Next shooter.

[Gold Canyon Kid #43974]

This is very easy to clarify.

When (as in this case) every bullet has a designated target - the question is simply "Did the bullet designated for that target - strike that target?"

What else that bullet may have done before or after striking the CORRECT designated target (excepting safety issues or designated no hit props) is of ZERO consequence or matter.

 

Lets just say the bullet had struck target one and THEN hit target two, I'm pretty sure no one would be arguing for a Procedural because the shooters second shot again struck target two.

And if anyone did argue that, we would dismiss it with the response "The correct bullet hit the correct target - nothing else the bullet does matters"

 

Why is the OP example any different - one bullet fired - correct target struck.

 

Next shooter.

++++++111111

[Gawd Awful]

This is very easy to clarify.

When (as in this case) every bullet has a designated target - the question is simply "Did the bullet designated for that target - strike that target?"

What else that bullet may have done before or after striking the CORRECT designated target (excepting safety issues or designated no hit props) is of ZERO consequence or matter.

 

Lets just say the bullet had struck target one and THEN hit target two, I'm pretty sure no one would be arguing for a Procedural because the shooters second shot again struck target two.

And if anyone did argue that, we would dismiss it with the response "The correct bullet hit the correct target - nothing else the bullet does matters"

 

Why is the OP example any different - one bullet fired - correct target struck.

 

Next shooter.

Well said

[Most Wanted]

So if ricochets have something positive happen it's rewarded but if something negative happens it's ignored. Sounds more like a child's game than a shooting competition. JMO

[Blastmaster]

Don't get ricochets off varmits and bad guys or even good guys.. ^_^Try shooting the middle bad guy and see if the left/right bad guys falls.

 

How about assessing where the bullet made first impact? would fit with miss chart diagram

 

Majority of skipped (ricochet shot) into target comes with SG targets,, and really, there usually are some bb's that actually hit the KD w/o skipping off ground.

[Cheyenne Culpepper 32827]

but what did the richocet hit first,,, ground,,, then target,, I have no problem with that,,, a ric into the bad guy still gets him,,,

 

if it comes to play with targets,,, which one was hit first is all that's important.. imnoho!

[Blastmaster]

I don;'t have a problem with ricochet off ground, rocks, horse trough full of water, plow blade, corner of building, into proper target (pretend bad guy)..

 

No ricochet off pretend bone & flesh of bad guy standing near bad guy being engaged. Thus, the bullet stopped there as far as game goes.

[Cheyenne Culpepper 32827]

I don;'t have a problem with ricochet off ground, rocks, horse trough full of water, plow blade, corner of building, into proper target (pretend bad guy)..

 

No ricochet off pretend bone & flesh of bad guy standing near bad guy being engaged. Thus, the bullet stopped there as far as game goes.

ha!! we agree, imagine that!!! Merry Christmas!

[Blastmaster]

ha!! we agree, imagine that!!! Merry Christmas!

And a very Merry Christmas to you and your loved ones.

[Ramblin Gambler]

Don't get ricochets off varmits and bad guys or even good guys.. ^_^Try shooting the middle bad guy and see if the left/right bad guys falls.

 

Well if you're going to bring Real Life into it, bullets do not always stop after hitting a person. Ever hear of Lee Harvey Oswald and his magic bullet? Sometimes them suckers can make 3 or 4 turns in mid air!

[Possum Skinner, SASS#60697]

CAS ain't billiards. First target struck should be the only one that counts.

[Griff]

Maybe you should take it up with SASS owners.

I have... many, many years ago... and been squashed each & every time... but that doesn't mean I don't have an opinion, nor the right to voice it. I don't care how many rocks, trees, target stands or other impediments to the target it may hit... but once it hits a target, it's counted; no matter how many more it may hit. What? You agree with every rule SASS has? Surely you jest!

[Blastmaster]

Well if you're going to bring Real Life into it, bullets do not always stop after hitting a person. Ever hear of Lee Harvey Oswald and his magic bullet? Sometimes them suckers can make 3 or 4 turns in mid air!

Fairly common to get 3-4 Praire Dogs with one bullet. They got to be lined up, front to back and NOT side to side.

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

Here is a fresh bone,

 

 

Stage directions says,

 

At beep, Sweep the five pistol targets twice, same direction. Sweep the five rifle targets twice, same direction. engage four SG targets till down.

 

What happened: First pistol, first shot,,,, edged pistol target #2 and hit pistol target #1,,, second shot hit target #2 and the rest of the stage was shot correctly. Everyone was sure about shot #1.

 

Question,,, The first shot hit target #2 first, then ricochetted into Target #1,,, what is the call?

 

 

The call was..... Clean.

 

Following the Miss Flow Chart (RO1 p.27):

Did the shooter hit all the correct type of targets with legally-acquired ammunition?

YES ->

Assess No Misses ->

Did the shooter engage the targets in the correct order?

(shooter in the OP "engaged" and HIT target #2 out of order)

NO ->

Assess Procedural

 

The following Q&As were presented to the ROC for opinion & adjudication:

 

Summary (with variations):

Shot P1 is designated for target P1 by stage instructions (e.g. Sweep 1-5 from L>R)

1) Shot P1 edges target P2; then hits target P1 (this is the OP question).

PROCEDURAL

2) Shot P1 edges target P1; then hits target R6 (designated for a different type of firearm...the second question)

HIT

3) Shot P1 hits the dirt in front of target P1; then bounces/ricochets up, hitting target P1

MISS

 

There was additional comment regarding SG KD targets that fall to an apparent impact in front of the target:

With a SG firing multiple projectiles, one would be hard pressed to determine whether it was a hit with shot or a ricocheted rock that knocked down the steel.

[Blastmaster]

 

Following the Miss Flow Chart (RO1 p.27):

Did the shooter hit all the correct type of targets with legally-acquired ammunition?

YES ->

Assess No Misses ->

Did the shooter engage the targets in the correct order?

(shooter in the OP "engaged" and HIT target #2 out of order)

NO ->

Assess Procedural

 

The following Q&As were presented to the ROC for opinion & adjudication:

 

Summary (with variations):

Shot P1 is designated for target P1 by stage instructions (e.g. Sweep 1-5 from L>R)

1) Shot P1 edges target P2; then hits target P1 (this is the OP question).

PROCEDURAL

2) Shot P1 edges target P1; then hits target R6 (designated for a different type of firearm...the second question)

HIT

3) Shot P1 hits the dirt in front of target P1; then bounces/ricochets up, hitting target P1

MISS

 

There was additional comment regarding SG KD targets that fall to an apparent impact in front of the target:

With a SG firing multiple projectiles, one would be hard pressed to determine whether it was a hit with shot or a ricocheted rock that knocked down the steel.

Outstanding!!

 

Thank you PWB & ROC for your efforts in clarifying this issue with various richochets/bounce bullet scenerios

[Most Wanted]

I'm glad to see we went one step further than the OP and also took ground ricochets Out of the equation. Thanks PWB and the ROC. Merry Christmas.

[Blastmaster]

Something else was clarified in this thread that should not be forgotten. The part about targets may be overlapped in certain shooting positions, BUT if shooter is given opportunity to move.... SEE post #67 in this thread for PWB explanation.

 

Interesting that just last weekends monthly match, a shooter was advised by TO (who read this thread) that the targets were overlapped in the shooting position the shooter was staging for but were clear at another shooting position for that firearm.... If he hit the overlapped target, it would BE ON HIM (a procedure).. Shooter took the chance and did fine.

 

Thanks all.

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

This is an interesting set of rules changes that the ROC has advised we use!

 

But, this set of examples does not by itself make it clear what the principle is that is to be used to make all future calls.

 

I will take a guess at what the principle is that they had in mind, because the principle needs to make the rule, not a small number of examples. The examples need to clearly show that the principle was being followed on every example.

 

 

From the examples given in #93,

 

Principle: A shot on target will be a hit only if the required target type and order (if specified) is the first object that the bullet hits in it's flight.

 

Results from the principle: All three examples that PWB cited which the ROC chewed over are assigned the correct results.

1 - edging wrong sequence target of correct type for firearm before hitting correct target -> Miss Corrected to Procedural

2 - edging correct sequence target, then ricocheting into wrong type of target -> Hit

3 - ricocheting off dirt or other object then into correct sequence target -> Miss

 

Some other conditions that this principle should be applied on:

4 - bullet passes directly through an expendable prop and hits correct target -> Principle makes this a Miss

5 - bullet edges wrong type of target and ricochets into correct target -> Principle makes this a Miss - But this now makes spotting considerably harder!

6 - bullet edges correct target and ricochets into non-expendable prop -> Principle does not apply any penalty for the secondary hit on expendable prop (Oops)

7 - an on-ground knockdown target is hit with a low shot where pellets hit both the ground in front of target and the target body -> Principle seems to say you have a very hard judgement call as to where to draw the line between what was hit first - ground or correct target (Oops)

8 - knockdown targets held by a rack frame are set for cartridge gun shooting. Rack frame is hit instead of the last target that was standing on the frame, and target falls. -> Principle makes this a Miss (Oops big time!)

 

What I am guessing is the underlying principle that the ROC had in mind does not work for all situations I can think of from actual matches I have been at.

 

Are we sure that we have a good principle for this new rule "change"?

 

Good luck, GJ

[Gold Canyon Kid #43974]

Many long range events are scored by a light flash to determine a hit. Sometimes it is possible to see the dirt kick up in front of the target but light flashes. In the past this is scored as a hit. I assume it will not longer be a hit??

[Hoss]

This is an interesting set of rules changes that the ROC has advised we use!

 

But, this set of examples does not by itself make it clear what the principle is that is to be used to make all future calls.

 

I will take a guess at what the principle is that they had in mind, because the principle needs to make the rule, not a small number of examples. The examples need to clearly show that the principle was being followed on every example.

 

 

From the examples given in #93,

 

Principle: A shot on target will be a hit only if the required target type and order (if specified) is the first object that the bullet hits in it's flight.

 

Results from the principle: All three examples that PWB cited which the ROC chewed over are assigned the correct results.

1 - edging wrong sequence target of correct type for firearm before hitting correct target -> Miss

2 - edging correct sequence target, then ricocheting into wrong type of target -> Hit

3 - ricocheting off dirt or other object then into correct sequence target -> Miss

 

Some other conditions that this principle should be applied on:

4 - bullet passes directly through an expendable prop and hits correct target -> Principle makes this a Miss

5 - bullet edges wrong type of target and ricochets into correct target -> Principle makes this a Miss - But this now makes spotting considerably harder!

6 - bullet edges correct target and ricochets into non-expendable target -> Principle does not apply any penalty for the secondary hit on expendable prop (Oops)

7 - an on-ground knockdown target is hit with a low shot where pellets hit both the ground in front of target and the target body -> Principle seems to say you have a very hard judgement call as to where to draw the line between what was hit first - ground or correct target (Oops)

8 - knockdown targets held by a rack frame are set for cartridge gun shooting. Rack frame is hit instead of the last target that was standing on the frame, and target falls. -> Principle makes this a Miss (Oops big time!)

 

What I am guessing is the underlying principle that the ROC had in mind does not work for all situations I can think off from actual matches I have been at.

 

Are we sure that we have a good principle for this new rule "change"?

 

Good luck, GJ

Was at a major match with a rack of knockdowns. somebody inadvertently hit the rack, and a plate fell. I actually heard a shooter say he might load up some heavier bullets in his first pistol, and try to hit the rack, causing plates to fall, then go to the dump target. in the end he did not do it, which is a good thing as I think it would have been a "spirit of the Game" call.

[Blastmaster]

This is an interesting set of rules changes that the ROC has advised we use!

 

But, this set of examples does not by itself make it clear what the principle is that is to be used to make all future calls.

 

I will take a guess at what the principle is that they had in mind, because the principle needs to make the rule, not a small number of examples. The examples need to clearly show that the principle was being followed on every example.

 

 

From the examples given in #93,

 

Principle: A shot on target will be a hit only if the required target type and order (if specified) is the first object that the bullet hits in it's flight.

 

Results from the principle: All three examples that PWB cited which the ROC chewed over are assigned the correct results.

1 - edging wrong sequence target of correct type for firearm before hitting correct target -> Miss Procedural

2 - edging correct sequence target, then ricocheting into wrong type of target -> Hit

3 - ricocheting off dirt or other object then into correct sequence target -> Miss

 

Some other conditions that this principle should be applied on:

4 - bullet passes directly through an expendable prop and hits correct target -> Principle makes this a Miss

Stage description could clarify expendable as a NC, if no clarification in description, then a miss. Best to ask if expendable is a NC before starting stage.

5 - bullet edges wrong type of target and ricochets into correct target -> Principle makes this a Miss - But this now makes spotting considerably harder!

Not really! Make the call as you see and believe it. In doubt? BOD goes to shooter

 

6 - bullet edges correct target and ricochets into non-expendable target -> Principle does not apply any penalty for the secondary hit on expendable prop (Oops)

I don't see a problem. Scoring stops with first bullet impact, unless stage description says otherwise.

 

7 - an on-ground knockdown target is hit with a low shot where pellets hit both the ground in front of target and the target body -> Principle seems to say you have a very hard judgement call as to where to draw the line between what was hit first - ground or correct target (Oops)

Not really. Can a spotter be for sure that all pellets hit the ground or all pellets hit the target? BOD comes into play. For single projectiles, if you see dust before target hit, it is a miss.

 

8 - knockdown targets held by a rack frame are set for cartridge gun shooting. Rack frame is hit instead of the last target that was standing on the frame, and target falls. -> Principle makes this a Miss (Oops big time!)

Last weekend, we had a plate rack. Stage description said to 'engage' KD with pistols until down. If one falls because of vibration from another falling plate, shoot where it was. You had to expend five pistol rounds on five KD plates on rack was the stage directions. Be clear with your (stage writer) intent.

We had another stage with potential overlapping SG KD's, Stage description said 4 +/- SG Rds, ,,,, engage four SG KD until down, any order. If you got two KD with one shot, good for you. Made for interesting staging of SG and how you shot the other guns

 

What I am guessing is the underlying principle that the ROC had in mind does not work for all situations I can think off from actual matches I have been at.

 

Are we sure that we have a good principle for this new rule "change"?

 

Good luck, GJ

[Most Wanted]

I can live with the ruling. The easiest way to clear up GJs questions would be to say " ricochets don't count , first thing bullet hits is what's scored ". Thats a principal we can all understand.

[Most Wanted]

Many long range events are scored by a light flash to determine a hit. Sometimes it is possible to see the dirt kick up in front of the target but light flashes. In the past this is scored as a hit. I assume it will not longer be a hit??

Long range rules are often match to match. MDs can figure out how they wish to handle this.

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

This is an interesting set of rules changes that the ROC has advised we use!

 

But, this set of examples does not by itself make it clear what the principle is that is to be used to make all future calls.

 

I will take a guess at what the principle is that they had in mind, because the principle needs to make the rule, not a small number of examples. The examples need to clearly show that the principle was being followed on every example.

 

 

From the examples given in #93,

 

Principle: A shot on target will be a hit only if the required target type and order (if specified) is the first object that the bullet hits in it's flight.

 

Results from the principle: All three examples that PWB cited which the ROC chewed over are assigned the correct results.

1 - edging wrong sequence target of correct type for firearm before hitting correct target -> Miss PROCEDURAL

2 - edging correct sequence target, then ricocheting into wrong type of target -> Hit

3 - ricocheting off dirt or other object then into correct sequence target -> Miss

 

Some other conditions that this principle should be applied on:

4 - bullet passes directly through an expendable prop and hits correct target -> Principle makes this a Miss

5 - bullet edges wrong type of target and ricochets into correct target -> Principle makes this a Miss - But this now makes spotting considerably harder!

6 - bullet edges correct target and ricochets into non-expendable target -> Principle does not apply any penalty for the secondary hit on expendable prop (Oops)

7 - an on-ground knockdown target is hit with a low shot where pellets hit both the ground in front of target and the target body -> Principle seems to say you have a very hard judgement call as to where to draw the line between what was hit first - ground or correct target (Oops)

8 - knockdown targets held by a rack frame are set for cartridge gun shooting. Rack frame is hit instead of the last target that was standing on the frame, and target falls. -> Principle makes this a Miss (Oops big time!)

 

What I am guessing is the underlying principle that the ROC had in mind does not work for all situations I can think off from actual matches I have been at.

 

Are we sure that we have a good principle for this new rule "change"?

 

Good luck, GJ

 

It's not a rule change.

It is an application of existing "rule" as written in the MFC as to whether the TARGETS were ENGAGED in the correct order.

 

4) Expendable props will be treated the same as always...as if they are not there. "Shoot through" props don't count as HITS on anything.

5) Spotters need to WATCH for hits/misses...if they don't see it (relying on "sound hits" only), they will score it incorrectly, same as a stand "hit"...BoD to the shooter & get spotters who actually SPOT rather than just listen.

6) If there is a penalty for hitting a prop (before or after a target hit) that should be explained in the stage instructions (as with a scattering of "no shoot" targets among the target array).

7) We addressed the "ground hit" with SHOTGUN (see post #93)...if it cannot be proven that the hit (KD?) is from shot pellets rather than dirt/gravel, shooter gets the BoD for a low HIT.

8) With a "sensitive" plate rack, scoring of targets being KD'd by a rack/frame impact should also be clarified regarding scoring. (e.g. MISS until "make up" target is hit...if one is available or reload to "shoot where it was") ... same as when a heavier front/side plate falling 'jars' the rack, causing other plates to fall.

This is sometimes scored the same as a "Texas Star" spinner when a top plate takes out a bottom one...depends on how many rounds are required to be fired AT the target array and how multiple "hits" are scored. Those type of things should be foreseen and scoring procedures clarified before engagement.

 

We (the ROC) are DONE WITH THIS.

 

Y'all can agonize and "WtC?" this for the rest of the year...we'll be working on the rulebook edits to get them current with the rule changes & clarifications ASAP.

[Cheyenne Culpepper 32827]

Thanks PW!!! it is real clear,,, for me anyway,,, Merry Christmas!!!