MTC- a new bone to chew on

[Blastmaster]

Here is a fresh bone,

 

 

Stage directions says,

 

At beep, Sweep the five pistol targets twice, same direction. Sweep the five rifle targets twice, same direction. engage four SG targets till down.

 

What happened: First pistol, first shot,,,, edged pistol target #2 and hit pistol target #1,,, second shot hit target #2 and the rest of the stage was shot correctly. Everyone was sure about shot #1.

 

Question,,, The first shot hit target #2 first, then ricochetted into Target #1,,, what is the call?

 

 

The call was..... Clean.

[McCandless]

He hit pistol target #1 with pistol shot #1. I'd call him lucky and move on.

[Cheyenne Culpepper 32827]

how close were the targets? hmmm he hit #2 before he hit #1.... hmmmmmm

[Lead Hammer]

If the First shot "edged" target #2.... Then Target #2 was shot first...... Targets shot out of order = P

[Most Wanted]

I don't know how this wouldn't be a P unless there wasn't room for a clean miss . if there wasn't then I'd call it a miss .

[Yusta B.]

If the First shot "edged" target #2.... Then Target #2 was shot first...... Targets shot out of order = P

+1

[Sedalia Dave]

I don't know how this wouldn't be a P unless there wasn't room for a clean miss . if there wasn't then I'd call it a miss .

+1

[Matthew Duncan]

Was P1 missed?

[Most Wanted]

Was P1 missed?

yes . If we have to track all bullets to they're final resting point to decide what got hit last counts more than what got hit first then I would venture to say nobody is going to be clean for the day .

 

Better question . Did the targets get hit in the proper order ? No .

[irish ike, SASS #43615]

Clean.....no miss, no P.

Ike

[Most Wanted]

Clean.....no miss, no P.

Ike

How do you ignore that target two got hit with first shot .

[Gold Canyon Kid #43974]

Here is a fresh bone,

 

 

Stage directions says,

 

At beep, Sweep the five pistol targets twice, same direction. Sweep the five rifle targets twice, same direction. engage four SG targets till down.

 

What happened: First pistol, first shot,,,, edged pistol target #2 and hit pistol target #1,,, second shot hit target #2 and the rest of the stage was shot correctly. Everyone was sure about shot #1.

 

Question,,, The first shot hit target #2 first, then ricochetted into Target #1,,, what is the call?

 

 

The call was..... Clean.

Clean. If first shot ricoched off the ground, 4 targets and finally target 1 it is a hit.

[Goody, SASS #26190]

Yesterday we had a shooter who edged a pistol target (the correct target) then traveled past and hit a rifle target. For those that want to call the OP clean, was this then a P on our shooter for engaging the wrong type target with the pistol?

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

*

 

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

*

[Goody, SASS #26190]

 

Why would that be a "P" under ANY circumstances?

REF: RO1 "5-Second Penalties" p.23

I agree, it's no call. But if we follow a bullet until it's final resting place aren't you suggesting that would be the logical call? If a bullet ricochets once or more and still be counted as a hit, then you it seems to indicate that the shooter owns whatever is struck, good or bad. I reject that notion, saying that our shooter was clean, no P, and the OP shooter had one miss. I know that is not how it is interpreted, but it is how I feel it should be called. The first strike of the bullet is the only one that matters.

[Griff]

I agree, it's no call. But if we follow a bullet until it's final resting place aren't you suggesting that would be the logical call? If a bullet ricochets once or more and still be counted as a hit, then you it seems to indicate that the shooter owns whatever is struck, good or bad. I reject that notion, saying that our shooter was clean, no P, and the OP shooter had one miss. I know that is not how it is interpreted, but it is how I feel it should be called. The first strike of the bullet is the only one that matters.

I've always felt it should be the "FIRST" target that is struck that counts... not some mishmash of luck where it strikes multiple targets before hitting the correct one. Ricochets off the ground notwithstanding.

[Blastmaster]

Thank you PWB,

 

If one did not know this here unwritten interpretation, and went strictly by the Miss Flow Chart... it would be a P.

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

**

 

[Gold Canyon Kid #43974]

A few years ago at a major shoot, shooter had an AD with pistol that hit a shotgun target with first shot, bullet bounced up and hit correct pistol target, it had just been painted. He was initally given a miss, but after a long off line discussion with spotters and RO occured, miss was overturned. One non spotter, shooter went somwhat ballistic. RO and posse marshal knew it was correct call. Posse marshal told objecting shooter he was wrong. Objecting shooter said he was an RO instructor and insisted he was right, it was a miss. PM said he had Hipshot on speed dial and they could call him for a ruling which they did. Hipshot's answer was the Judge settled this when the sport started. Hipshot said this was a fantasy sport. In the movies and TV the good guys often shot at rocks or other to hit the bad guys so in this sport no matter how the bullet hits the correct target it is a hit. RO instructer then went to the Instructor Wire and raised a rucas after he got home. Ruling held up.

[Goody, SASS #26190]

**

 

Never mind.

 

I'm not getting any further into this one with those who either refuse to RTFM and/or misquote whatever I've already posted.

 

Y'all enjoy the next 3+ pages of debate.

 

I'm gone for a few days.

 

I did neither of those. I acknowledged what the official stance is. I simply stated that I don't agree with what has been decided and wish it to be different. I've never been accused of withholding my opinion. Have a good trip.

[Gold Canyon Kid #43974]

I've always felt it should be the "FIRST" target that is struck that counts... not some mishmash of luck where it strikes multiple targets before hitting the correct one. Ricochets off the ground notwithstanding.

Maybe you should take it up with SASS owners.

[Most Wanted]

Was there a ruling on this that got erased. I checked the rules PWB referenced but did not find a reason to ignore target two was first hit. Also flow chart confirms this was a P. Ricochet is not in the glossary of terms but I do recall PWB saying if the shot hits the ground and then hits the target it's a hit. Where if it exists is there a reference to ignore targets get hit out of order or is this "just how it is ". Thanks MW

[Cat Brules]

There is nothing new with this scenario. This thread has been clouded with confusion, cryptic or coded references and guessing.

 

Read the rules. There are no legitimate "off-the-books" rules exceptions, fabricated by "the owners," omnipotent match directors, or anyone else, which somehow trump the most current, published, iteration of the rules. I suggest we not accept statements to the contrary and that we protest bad calls up the line. A bad call penalizes all shooters.

[Gold Canyon Kid #43974]

There is nothing new with this scenario. This thread has been clouded with confusion, cryptic or coded references and guessing.

 

Read the rules. There are no legitimate "off-the-books" rules exceptions, fabricated by "the owners," omnipotent match directors, or anyone else, which somehow trump the most current, published, iteration of the rules. I suggest we not accept statements to the contrary and that we protest bad calls up the line. A bad call penalizes all shooters.

Rules should be written to reflect the frequency of need. How many times does this particular issue pop up, vary rarely. As such if rules were written to cover every single low probability event like this then the rule books would be an inch thick. I know of no one that wants that kind of rule book. The RO committee rules on issues like this all the time and rarely do you ever see a formal rule change come about.

[Blastmaster]

Situations like this may become more frequent with the trend of shooting any gun any order from many position and being able to stage anywhere. Shooters options, so to speak. This was a case of shooter engaging targets from center shooting position and targets were to one side and there was some overlap when engaged at that angle, but were seperated sufficiently if shooter was using shooting position directly in front of targets.

[Most Wanted]

Rules should be written to reflect the frequency of need. How many times does this particular issue pop up, vary rarely. As such if rules were written to cover every single low probability event like this then the rule books would be an inch thick. I know of no one that wants that kind of rule book. The RO committee rules on issues like this all the time and rarely do you ever see a formal rule change come about.

I can't agree with this. If there is a standing agreement that a bullet can hit any number of things but as long as during its flight it hits the correct target all else including a p , SDQ and MDQ is forgiven then put it in writing. In the OPs case some are saying the P should be forgiven. Where's your stance on the other infractions that could have happened before the bullet hit the correct target. My guess would be that there's going to be some picking and choosing. Even more of a reason to put it in writing. OR. Forget this ricochet crap and what the bullet HITS first counts. Easy.

[Yusta B.]

Seems that this is a case where one side of the miss chart asks "Were targets HIT in correct order?"

and the other side asks "Were targets ENGAGED in correct order?" depending on whether or not there was a miss. Why would that be different wording ? Just askin .........

[Hoss]

I've looked at it and scratched my head. I guess as a debater I could argue both sides of the coin. if I had to make a call, it would be clean, no miss no P, based on this:

 

I think shooter ENGAGED targets in correct order. He may not have HIT them on correct order, but targets did not allow opportunity for a clean miss without "WITHOUT ANY ARGUEMENT" I would give shooter BOD and move on.

 

Anecdotally, I have always heard that ricochets count, but there is nothing in the rule book saying so.

 

While I understand PWB's frustration on people not reading the manual, in this particular case, I don't think it is crystal clear. I wish somebody in authority would make the correct call.

[Most Wanted]

I have also heard ricochets count but never heard penalties are overlooked.

 

But if there wasn't room for a clean miss that would only change my P to a miss.

[Noz]

Did he hit the first target? Yes

Did he hit it with the first shot? Yes

Clean! Next shooter.

[Most Wanted]

Situations like this may become more frequent with the trend of shooting any gun any order from many position and being able to stage anywhere. Shooters options, so to speak. This was a case of shooter engaging targets from center shooting position and targets were to one side and there was some overlap when engaged at that angle, but were seperated sufficiently if shooter was using shooting position directly in front of targets.

Just realized this was an answer to a question I had been looking for.

Then for the OP , one miss and not a P.

[Blastmaster]

Just realized this was an answer to a question I had been looking for.

Then for the OP , one miss and not a P.

But the shooter had opportunity to shoot targets straight on, with plenty of room for a clean miss... but elected (take a chance) to take a short cut (gamed it)

[Most Wanted]

But the shooter had opportunity to shoot targets straight on, with plenty of room for a clean miss... but elected (take a chance) to take a short cut (gamed it)

JMO but that would fall under bad stage design. If shooter is allowed to shoot at targets from different angles then ALL angles should be checked for over lap. That said still just a miss.

[irish ike, SASS #43615]

During this year's TG Summit we discussed having TG's, RO's and Match Directors for regionals and above go through some sort of re-certification on the rules to qualify to hold those positions.

I spoke to this; 'If you read the wire and also the TG'd forum it's very apparent that many people don't know the latest rules and clarifications. And when Palewolf comes on and gives them the right answer and references what or where it can be found the WTC/MTC goes on for another 3 pages. Why because people aren't up on the rules and or they don't agree with them'.

 

Just like this, the answer was given by Palewolf and yet we go on............

 

Ike