Ol Number4 Posted December 1, 2015 Share Posted December 1, 2015 Just recently, I had a customer ask about the advantages and/or benefits of using the .45 Cowboy Special ammo in revolvers and '73's. I know that there are modifications required to the carrier to make it work in the '73. Being that it is a rimmed case, it is a non-issue as far as fitting in the cylinders. If one converts a carrier on a '73 to the .45 Cowboy Special, are you then locked in to using that caliber only? If he is is un-prepared, and runs out of ammo, can he use a Schofield or regular .45 Colt ammo interchagably? I suspect not. Another issue, in the long term, in a revolver, using the shorter .45 Cowboy, being that it is so much shorter than a .45 Colt, like a .38 vs. .357, is there going to be a carbon build-up in the chamber that, after time, would prevent the chambering of the longer .45 Schofield or.45 Colt Round? Oh, and by the way, it's a .45 Colt, NOT a .45 "Long" Colt. (If you are talking about a .45 "Long" Colt, I can only assume you are talking about a mythical .45 Schofield 1-1/4 "Express" ). I did search on MidwayUSA for the .45 Cowboy brass and did find it readily available. Is this cartridge a viable option for those cowboy shooters who want to spend dollars to save pennies in regards to amount of powder used? While the cartridge sounds good on the surface like the old .41 Action Express, is the cost of conversion inversely proportional to the amount saved in powder used? In the end, is there really a competetive advantage justifying the added expense? Ol' #4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 Posted December 1, 2015 Share Posted December 1, 2015 I am very enthusiastic about Cowboy .45 Spl in revolvers. I am not sold using it in rifles. Especially now that: 1 - brass is hard to replace (and you get a lot of lost brass with rifle) 2 - the carrier mod on the 73 is kinda a no-turning-back proposition. You CAN take the flipper and spring out and go back to running .45 Colt, or fit a second carrier, however. So all is not lost if you do convert a rifle to it. But, the recoil reduction benefits the handgun SO much more than the rifle, that I just don't even think about converting a 73 rifle to use "lil stubby." But I love it in revolvers. I sure wish the vendor who got the rights to the cartridge would wise up and sell brass hand over fist. But I'm not optimistic that they will. I did search on MidwayUSA for the .45 Cowboy brass and did find it readily available. Ummm, nope. Not available on Midway. Not available anywhere that I know of right now. Vendor (American Cowboy Ammo) is only selling loaded rounds at almost a buck per, last I heard. Also checked Selway Armory and TargetSports, both of which are carrying American Cowboy's .45 Colt ammo. Nope, those folks are not carrying Cowboy 45 Special loaded ammo either. Trying to get places to stock this specialty cartridge, loaded, is indeed a rough entry into business, it seems. Good luck, GJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lefty Dude, SASS # 51223 Posted December 1, 2015 Share Posted December 1, 2015 If you can wait till WR, I'll give ya some to play with. They are kinda hard to find, and those that have them are kinda selfish. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boothill Bandit, SASS# 48598 Posted December 1, 2015 Share Posted December 1, 2015 I am very enthusiastic about Cowboy .45 Spl in revolvers. I am not sold using it in rifles. Especially now that: 1 - brass is hard to replace (and you get a lot of lost brass with rifle) 2 - the carrier mod on the 73 is kinda a no-turning-back proposition. You CAN take the flipper and spring out and go back to running .45 Colt, or fit a second carrier, however. So all is not lost if you do convert a rifle to it. But, the recoil reduction benefits the handgun SO much more than the rifle, that I just don't even think about converting a 73 rifle to use "lil stubby." But I love it in revolvers. I sure wish the vendor who got the rights to the cartridge would wise up and sell brass hand over fist. But I'm not optimistic that they will. Ummm, nope. Not available on Midway. Not available anywhere that I know of right now. Vendor (American Cowboy Ammo) is only selling loaded rounds at almost a buck per, last I heard. Also checked Selway Armory and TargetSports, both of which are carrying American Cowboy's .45 Colt ammo. Nope, those folks are not carrying Cowboy 45 Special loaded ammo either. Trying to get places to stock this specialty cartridge, loaded, is indeed a rough entry into business, it seems. Good luck, GJ Garrison Joe, as always, you provide insightful, well thought-out input. Thank you. Boothill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Henry Quick Posted December 1, 2015 Share Posted December 1, 2015 Can you use a case trimmer and take .45 Colt down to .45 Cowboy? I'm sure it would be a lot of work (assuming it's feasible), but for the determined .45 Cowboy shooter, it might solve the supply issues a bit...? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Null N. Void Posted December 1, 2015 Share Posted December 1, 2015 I had asked this a couple of months back, and was told it was fine. I don't have a case trimmer, but used a tubing cutter to cut down a bunch of 45 Colt brass that I had to the 45 ACP length. I then used my 45 ACP dies and 45 Colt shellholder plate to load on a Dillon SDB. I use 160 grain RNFP. It's a taper crimp and works fine for me. YMMV Null N. Void Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Sage, SASS #49891 Life Posted December 1, 2015 Share Posted December 1, 2015 Been using the CS Special in my NM Vaqueros (SS) for about 7 or 8 years. I only use CS in my revs, never in my 73. I only shoot BP & subs and I have never had any problem with any buildup that makes regular .45s hard to insert into the cylinders. I suspect its because all my cowboy guns get cleaned after every shoot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cowboy Rick, SASS #49739L Posted December 1, 2015 Share Posted December 1, 2015 I am good for now with my current supply of CS brass. My wife has two Spur Marlin short strokes that require the CS ammo. I can put the original carrier back in, but then you lose the short stroke. Since the Marlin is a "direct drive" action, shortening the lever throw also shortens the bolt travel. This means shorter ammo. No real problem with buildup in the chambers in her SS Rugers. Would like to find a source so that I can keep her happy. CR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PECOS PETE, SASS#16437 Posted December 1, 2015 Share Posted December 1, 2015 I can't speak to any BP use, but I have shot Schofield's since 2000. Noting the many acp cylinders, I cut down some and could not tell the difference. I have loaded randomly and had other people shoot them. No one ever reliably guessed right. YMMV, but I doubt it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barkeep Casey Posted December 1, 2015 Share Posted December 1, 2015 I purchased a new 45CS carrier for my rifle from a reputable gunsmith, and can swap back to the original carrier for 45lc if needed (but don't really see that happening). I cut my brass down using a forster trimmer with a drill attachment and can cut about 100 rds in an hour. Since I am shooting 45CS in my rifle and pistols I did switch to a Roll crimp die instead of a taper crimp die. But otherwise load as listed above. To answer your original Op, it is only cost effective if you are trying to down load your 45's and/or not use filler if you are a BP shooter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cusz M. Dutch SASS Life 55326 Posted December 1, 2015 Share Posted December 1, 2015 Take the 45 Schofield and seat the bullet a little past flush with the case. Not the same but really cuts down the space. Works great with BP in my Rugers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boggus Deal #64218 Posted December 1, 2015 Share Posted December 1, 2015 Take the 45 Schofield and seat the bullet a little past flush with the case. Not the same but really cuts down the space. Works great with BP in my Rugers. Do you mean recessed? As in below the mouth of the case? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rio Brazos Kid Posted December 1, 2015 Share Posted December 1, 2015 Take the 45 Schofield and seat the bullet a little past flush with the case. Not the same but really cuts down the space. Works great with BP in my Rugers. Seating a bullet below the case mouth is ILLEGAL in SASS. Doing so is a violation of SASS rules. RBK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 Posted December 1, 2015 Share Posted December 1, 2015 In the end, is there really a competitive advantage justifying the added expense? Just about the same question as "does a 105 grain 38 special load have competitive advantage over a 140 or 158 grain load?" C45S with a light bullet (maybe 160 or 175 grain) at 650 FPS versus .45 Colt with a 160 or even 200 grain bullet at 700-750 FPS? You could try (as many folks have before) to get a .45 Colt case to burn powder efficiently with the ultra-light 160 grain bullet (or so), but as Adirondak Jack and folks found 5 years ago, it's pretty hard to get down there without getting inconsistent, dirty, and questionable accuracy. Getting the 45 Colt chambered revolver to shoot about like a service-loaded 38 special revolver was the goal, and C45S is about the easiest way to get to that goal. So, say the brass costs twice as much .45 Colt cases, and uses 2/3 the powder load you would need in .45 Colt. And, say you can cut pistol string times by 0.5 seconds for ten shots by switching from low-end .45 Colt to C45S loads (which was my experience). Where's the competitive advantage? Saving 6 seconds on revolver time in my 12-stage matches is where the competitive advantage lies. And if I pay a little more for C45S brass or I spend time (money) shortening .45 Colt cases, the time savings are worth it to me. And the very small probable time savings that I would expect on a 73 rifle string makes it not a competitive advantage that I want to chase. Because I've timed strings when I drop my rifle ammo PF from 160 to 120 in .45 Colt, and I don't get much time savings at all. And powder gas blow-by starts getting real serious in that lower end area with .45 Colt. So I just don't go there with a rifle. Good luck, GJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rio Brazos Kid Posted December 1, 2015 Share Posted December 1, 2015 After pursuing the best and most efficient way of shortening 45LC cases to make C45S cases, I found that making a jig that would hold the 45LC cases at a consistent length, and allowing the cases to be shortened to very near C45S case length with a good quality tubing cutter, was the way to go for the initial shortening. Then using my powered Forester case trimmer, the cases were trimmed to exact and perfectly uniform case length. Quality of the finished cases was/is as good as the new brass from Starline. So, at least until the C45S brass again becomes available, (and at a reasonable price), those Cowboys who use the short 45 brass can make all they need or desire, and since little to no brass is lost when using it in pistols, it won't be hard to keep up with their needs. RBK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abilene, SASS # 27489 Posted December 2, 2015 Share Posted December 2, 2015 ...Vendor (American Cowboy Ammo) is only selling loaded rounds at almost a buck per, last I heard. Also checked Selway Armory and TargetSports, both of which are carrying American Cowboy's .45 Colt ammo. Nope, those folks are not carrying Cowboy 45 Special loaded ammo either. Trying to get places to stock this specialty cartridge, loaded, is indeed a rough entry into business, it seems. Good luck, GJ I just talked to Joe Neumann (A.D.Texaz) from Cimarron and they have the loaded C45S ammo in stock. He will be at the convention if anyone wants to talk to him about it. I know lots of folks here are into rolling their own, but you'd be surprised how many people will pay the high $$ for loaded ammo. Cimarron sells quite a bit of Black Hills ammo which is similarly priced. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ol Number4 Posted December 2, 2015 Author Share Posted December 2, 2015 Folks, you have all added quite a bit to his thinking. I appreciate all the comments, Garrison Joe, you really hit his funny bone with the "cost analysis" factor. He isn't going to need the .05 seconds the way he is shooting right now. Just wanted to get some views for him to look at. He has been trying to research some unique gear just because he has some time. I have suggested he consider the 45's and use Schofield cases for the pistols but leave the rifle as a well tuned 45 Colt '73. Two sets of dies, changing out for each, sorting brass, non-reversable mods for the '73 all add to more time and $$$. After reading these comments, I am sure he will just stay with plain 45 all the way through. Thanks!! Ol' #4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cusz M. Dutch SASS Life 55326 Posted December 2, 2015 Share Posted December 2, 2015 Do you mean recessed? As in below the mouth of the case? A little bit of the bullet sticking out of the case to make it legal. Sorry I was not clear enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boggus Deal #64218 Posted December 2, 2015 Share Posted December 2, 2015 Ol #4, My 3 tuned 45 Colt rifles run Schofields like poop through a goose. I load a 200 grain in the crimp groove and they feed great! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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