Henry 1860 being banned at club level, questions

[Bart Solo]

The question isn't whether SASS can't ban the Henry, if can if it is found to be an unsafe design. If memory serves SASS banned the 1893 Winchester (the predecessor of the 1897) because it is believed to be unsafe. The question is whether the Henry is unsafe. The original design, which was for a rim fire cartridge, had one glaring weakness, the magazine. The big improvement between the 1860 Henry and the 1866 Yellow Boy was the addition of a magazine loading gate which eliminated the design feature users at the time considered a major flaw.

 

I am not clear as to exactly what happened in each instance, but the magazine design seems to be a contributing factor in both cited events. There is also talk of the involvement of high primers. This topic is not brand new. I have seen articles in other venues that talk about the potential for chain fire incidents related to the 1860's magazine design especially when one of the rounds has a high primer. A risk analysis would ask a lot of important questions including just how frequently does the magazine design contribute to a chain fire event and is a simple fix possible. I don't think a wire thread will substitute for that kind of risk assessment.

[Nickel City Dude]

Wonder if you could put one of those sticky sided felt circles on the magazine tab, if that would have enough cushion to relieve an accidental discharge. Would be a cheap and easy fix.... If it worked.

My Henry already has a rubber pad on the follower and if you tried to put any more on it, the top portion would not be able swivel to open the magazine. Good thought though.

[Gold Canyon Kid #43974]

Has anyone besides the gun owner been injured in each case? If so, then action should be considered by the SASS owners.

[Deuce Stevens SASS#55996]

Gentleman, lets not start a new crusade to ban a rifle that has been legal in our game FOREVER and has been used to fire thousands upon thousands of rounds safely downrange. I have witnessed 3 people shoot the loading table with their revolvers over the years, what do we do about that. I have seen many severe out of battery discharges from 66's and 73's with lever safeties removed, what do we do about that. Please please please lets not let the PC BS of society today creep into our game (to late in some areas of our game). This should be handled on a club to club basis based on their experiences and shooters.

[Pit Bull Tex]

+1.Very well said Deuce.

[Assassin]

I've seen and heard several single action pistols blow up, pieces of cylinder and top strap turned into schrapnel. Saw a 73 magazine blow with several rounds in the tube. Three 97's blow when the flag didn't come up and outside extractor hit the primer and slammed the bolt back into the receiver. I know a person that blew up the same 1860 Henry twice, one would think he would have learned the first time. Many chain fires in cap guns. Never seen anyone have a problem with a Big Boy, no different than loading most tube fed 22 rifles. It's all part of our game. If the same person continues to blow up guns it's the shooter that should be banned not the firearm.

[H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619]

"Catastrophic" problems at an individual club that have forced them to do things for insurance reasons or compliance with the will of the owner are one thing and we really can't do anything about them. But for a game that has such a high emphasis on safety, there is no reason why these concerns can't be addressed without resorting to the need to ban certain guns.

 

I mean, if we get rid of the Henry for a *perceived* safety issue, what's next? The Spencer? That loads very similarly to the Henry. Sure, it's through the butt and not the muzzle, and you drop 'em nose first, not base first, but you would still be dropping them one on top of the other if you do it at a steep angle. That could lead to an inadvertent discharge, theoretically.

 

How about the Lightning? You load that with the action open, and then close it. This has confused some loading table operators. They might tell someone to cycle the action, and thus cause a live round to be chambered.

 

What about the '66? It has been pointed out that most of them don't have a lever safety, which could lead to an out of battery discharge. (Mine has a lever safety, so I don't worry about it.)

 

What about the Evans? Rare, but very strange, and you have to do things with the action to load it. What if somebody messes up and chambers a live round?

 

Where does it end?

 

The next thing you know, the only SASS legal rifle will be modern made 92 with some sort of a safety.

 

Think it can't happen? Of the four pre-1900 pump action shotgun designs, how many are SASS Legal?

 

As Driftwood said, all of these concerns can be addressed at the Safety Meeting. While talking about the specific range rules, the 170, "the twist" for crossdraws, etc, etc, it would be so easy to add, "Anybody using a Henry? Be mindful of proper loading procedures and watch the tab once your done." Other comments can be added, if deemed necessary.

 

Let's just leave it at that.

[Driftwood Johnson, SASS #38283]

 

Gentleman, lets not start a new crusade to ban a rifle that has been legal in our game FOREVER and has been used to fire thousands upon thousands of rounds safely downrange. I have witnessed 3 people shoot the loading table with their revolvers over the years, what do we do about that. I have seen many severe out of battery discharges from 66's and 73's with lever safeties removed, what do we do about that. Please please please lets not let the PC BS of society today creep into our game (to late in some areas of our game). This should be handled on a club to club basis based on their experiences and shooters.

 

Thank you Deuce for being a voice of reason.

 

By the way, the Marlin pump gun was banned by SASS because Marlin themselves said it was dangerous and SASS did not want the liability of sanctioning a firearm that the manufacturer themselves said was unsafe. Uberti has not said anything at all about the Henry being unsafe.

 

 

The original design, which was for a rim fire cartridge, had one glaring weakness, the magazine. The big improvement between the 1860 Henry and the 1866 Yellow Boy was the addition of a magazine loading gate which eliminated the design feature users at the time considered a major flaw.

 

The flaw in the open slot design of the Henry magazine was that it allowed mud and dirt to enter the magazine, potentially disabling the rifle. The other flaw was that the shooter had stand the rifle up to reload, dropping rounds straight down the magazine. Not exactly recommended if the shooter was in the midst of a battle. The third flaw in the Henry magazine was that the barrel and magazine were forged from one solid bar of steel, making the rifle heavy and expensive to manufacture. Adding the loading gate to the Model 1866 and all subsequent Winchesters made the rifle lighter, one could load from a seated or prone position, and most important, it made the rifle cheaper to manufacture because adding a hollow tube below the barrel is much cheaper than all the operations required to shape the magazine of the Henry, and the material cost was less too. This last reason is why all Henry production ceased when the Model 1866 became available. The 1866 was cheaper to produce and it was lighter.

 

None of these factors had anything to do with the inherent safety of the firearm.

 

 

 

 

Henry rifles made by Uberti already come with a small rubber disk set into a hollow in the follower. In my not so humble opinion, it is useless. Far too thin to act as a reliable cushion if the follower gets away from the shooter. An adhesive felt pad would be just as useless. Anything thicker than what Uberti already puts in there would not allow the muzzle end to swivel to open the magazine.

 

 

 

 

 

I mentioned earlier that I believe my spacer stick adds a level of safety at the loading table. The purpose of the spacer stick is so the follower tab never reaches my left hand and I don't have to do the 'Henry Hop'. The stick is approximately 4 1/2" long and it takes up almost all of the empty space in the magazine when 10 rounds are loaded. Accidental discharges at the loading table are due in part to the fact that if the follower slips from the operator's hand, the spring has four inches to accelerate the follower. This means the follower will smack the column of rounds in the magazine very hard. Once my Henry is loaded and the stick is in place, if I were to lose control of the follower as I lowered it, it would only move about 3/8" before it hit the stick, which would in turn strike the cartridges in the magazine. The spring does not accelerate the follower very much in that 3/8", and I doubt there would be any danger of accidental discharge. This also means that if I am careless removing the rifle from the loading table and snag the follower on the table edge, the follower will probably not accelerate enough for an accidental discharge.

 

 

 

 

Guys, as I said before, all of these issues can be addressed at the Safety Meeting. It can simply be pointed out that Henry shooters need to be careful loading their rifles. And there should be an alternative to unsafely staging the Henry.

 

And let's not forget, we are all safety officers. If we see somebody being unsafe with their firearms, we all have a duty to say something. When I first started shooting CAS, there was an older gentleman who was shooting a Henry. He was loading it by standing it vertically and dropping the rounds down the magazine. Now it is probably a very rare instance that a round should accidentally discharge this way, it ain't going to happen the first and every time you do it. But clearly this gent had not heard about not dropping rounds down the magazine. If I saw this happening today you can be sure I would speak up. As it was, this gent kept sweeping shooters with his muzzle and he was eventually told to go home.

 

Let's not get hysterical about a firearm that is perfectly safe when handled properly.

[travelin kid #51083]

Sorry I brought this up, the mess I didn't want to see get started, did....

 

I've had several tell me that other clubs have banned them from matches, that was my question at the start if this if any of you had heard of any other clubs putting restrictions on this firearm.

 

I own one myself, I do understand that the incidents I cited were ultimately the shooters responsibility

 

Didn't mean for is to turn into what it did, thank you for your input and opinions

[travelin kid #51083]

"Guys, as I said before, all of these issues can be addressed at the Safety Meeting. It can simply be pointed out that Henry shooters need to be careful loading their rifles. And there should be an alternative to unsafely staging the Henry."

 

 

Our concern there is if you bring attention to a specific firearm and its possible issues, that you are recognizing that there is an issue, and if something happens the club allowed it to happen, knowing that issues exist.....

[Rio Brazos Kid]

Just an observation, but it would seem these instances of rounds firing in the magazine tube, are the result of high primers, which is a totally preventable condition, and possibly the use of improper bullet types in the reloads used in those rifles.

 

This is not a problem with the Rifle, it's simply carelessness and inattention by the re-loader. For instance, I work the loading table at several clubs around the area, and I see High primers showing up at every shoot. Sometimes a LOT of high primers. This is simply careless reloading. Way too much speed, and little checking, or quality control. There's absolutely no excuse for showing up at the loading table with high primers or loads that won't chamber. Yet it happens with regularity.

 

Like Deuce said, it's not the rifles fault that these occurrences happen. Shooters cause the problem. Banning the Rifles because of inept shooters is just silly, and strict adherence to proper load procedures will certainly fix the existing problem.

 

The use of properly seated primers, and flat nose bullets will eliminate any possibility of magazine explosions.

 

RBK

[Snakebite]

"Long story as to why, but our Club cannot afford to have an accident, or we will probably lose our home." This was the OPs concern in his post.

 

It would be impossible to introduce controlling measures that would remove any possible source of an accident with out simply closing down operations. Nothing can assure an accident free zone other than vacating that zone. Our best option is to continue to stress safety, promote awareness of the 1860 Henry's shortcomings and effectively enforce our safety rules.

 

Off Hand, the ONLY situation that I can think of that would cause me to Ban the use of a 1860 Henry rifle would be in the very unlikely event that it was specifically singled out for prohibition by those who control the access to our facility.

 

Deuce is right... lets not start a crusade against this gun.

 

Just as a side note, this issue does NOT parallel the 1893 Winchester Shotgun ban.... that was a totally different safety situation based upon the guns not being proofed for Smokeless ammo. They were recalled by Winchester for this fact.

[Griff]

"Guys, as I said before, all of these issues can be addressed at the Safety Meeting. It can simply be pointed out that Henry shooters need to be careful loading their rifles. And there should be an alternative to unsafely staging the Henry."

 

 

Our concern there is if you bring attention to a specific firearm and its possible issues, that you are recognizing that there is an issue, and if something happens the club allowed it to happen, knowing that issues exist.....

Not much different from the situation with cap 'n ball revolvers... the SASS Shooter's Handbook and RO Manuals go so far as to point out it's dangers and the need for caution.

 

Why I got my Henry... to better fit the time period of C&B revolvers. Still have to relieve the carrier so I can actually shoot a whole stage. And yes, the Marlin shotgun was banned because of a letter from Marlin stating the gun was unsafe, (biggest disservice from a gunmaker since S&W), and the 1893 was outlawed due to being recalled by Winchester.

 

While I'd certainly get tired of being asked if I understood the dangers associated with using centerfire ammo in the Henry, I'd certainly welcome that instead of banning every 1860 rifle user instead of the few that have had a problem. (As long as every user of any rifle that loaded from the muzzle end was given the same admonishment).

[Russ T. Sites]

Thank you Deuce for being a voice of reason.

 

By the way, the Marlin pump gun was banned by SASS because Marlin themselves said it was dangerous and SASS did not want the liability of sanctioning a firearm that the manufacturer themselves said was unsafe. Uberti has not said anything at all about the Henry being unsafe.

 

 

 

The flaw in the open slot design of the Henry magazine was that it allowed mud and dirt to enter the magazine, potentially disabling the rifle. The other flaw was that the shooter had stand the rifle up to reload, dropping rounds straight down the magazine. Not exactly recommended if the shooter was in the midst of a battle. The third flaw in the Henry magazine was that the barrel and magazine were forged from one solid bar of steel, making the rifle heavy and expensive to manufacture. Adding the loading gate to the Model 1866 and all subsequent Winchesters made the rifle lighter, one could load from a seated or prone position, and most important, it made the rifle cheaper to manufacture because adding a hollow tube below the barrel is much cheaper than all the operations required to shape the magazine of the Henry, and the material cost was less too. This last reason is why all Henry production ceased when the Model 1866 became available. The 1866 was cheaper to produce and it was lighter.

 

None of these factors had anything to do with the inherent safety of the firearm.

 

 

 

 

Henry rifles made by Uberti already come with a small rubber disk set into a hollow in the follower. In my not so humble opinion, it is useless. Far too thin to act as a reliable cushion if the follower gets away from the shooter. An adhesive felt pad would be just as useless. Anything thicker than what Uberti already puts in there would not allow the muzzle end to swivel to open the magazine.

 

 

 

 

 

I mentioned earlier that I believe my spacer stick adds a level of safety at the loading table. The purpose of the spacer stick is so the follower tab never reaches my left hand and I don't have to do the 'Henry Hop'. The stick is approximately 4 1/2" long and it takes up almost all of the empty space in the magazine when 10 rounds are loaded. Accidental discharges at the loading table are due in part to the fact that if the follower slips from the operator's hand, the spring has four inches to accelerate the follower. This means the follower will smack the column of rounds in the magazine very hard. Once my Henry is loaded and the stick is in place, if I were to lose control of the follower as I lowered it, it would only move about 3/8" before it hit the stick, which would in turn strike the cartridges in the magazine. The spring does not accelerate the follower very much in that 3/8", and I doubt there would be any danger of accidental discharge. This also means that if I am careless removing the rifle from the loading table and snag the follower on the table edge, the follower will probably not accelerate enough for an accidental discharge.

 

 

 

 

Guys, as I said before, all of these issues can be addressed at the Safety Meeting. It can simply be pointed out that Henry shooters need to be careful loading their rifles. And there should be an alternative to unsafely staging the Henry.

 

And let's not forget, we are all safety officers. If we see somebody being unsafe with their firearms, we all have a duty to say something. When I first started shooting CAS, there was an older gentleman who was shooting a Henry. He was loading it by standing it vertically and dropping the rounds down the magazine. Now it is probably a very rare instance that a round should accidentally discharge this way, it ain't going to happen the first and every time you do it. But clearly this gent had not heard about not dropping rounds down the magazine. If I saw this happening today you can be sure I would speak up. As it was, this gent kept sweeping shooters with his muzzle and he was eventually told to go home.

 

Let's not get hysterical about a firearm that is perfectly safe when handled properly.

+1. We are all saftey officers , just a reminder to go slow at the reloading table and to pay attention. Sometimes we get to talking and lose focus.

 

A good loading table officer will make sure a shooter with a Henry will have enough room and give reminders.

 

This is a good thread so we don't get complacent at the loading table with any firearm

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

Making staging tables and platforms large enough that the Henry can be staged with the follower tab on the flat instead of hanging off the front would go a long way to making these guns safer to shoot quickly.

 

As for the loading table - watch and if needed TEACH your fellow pards how to load safely with them.

 

And, it's always a good topic for a pre-match safety meeting!

 

Good luck, GJ

[LostVaquero]

The spacer stick is a neat idea. Should work with the Henry Henry.

I use a steel BB and yep best to just enough slope to let the rounds slide.

 

While the range owner has ultimate authority, as mentioned what if one blows up sayb a Vaquero? A 1897 pump? The list goes on the pretty soon we can all stand there pointing fingers and saying bang.

 

For any one concerned I think if there is a question on the operation and the ammo for a firearm check the ammo and have the shooter demonstrate they know proper operation.

[Boggus Deal #64218]

As I read this thread, I find it interesting that some of the same folks who want to keep the dropped round rule with absolutely no instances of a problem, want to support a rifle with actual incidences. I am NOT saying ban it, at all, by the way!

[Guest Cinch, SASS#29433]

[size=5

 

Just as a side note, this issue does NOT parallel the 1893 Winchester Shotgun ban.... that was a totally different safety situation based upon the guns not being proofed for Smokeless ammo. They were recalled by Winchester for this fact.

The biggest concern with the 93 is the lack of a firing pin block mechanism and maintenance. With the little kid loads used in CAS I doubt that smokeless proofing is great reasoning now days. As far as a 60 goes it is a firearm with certain idiosyncrasies that have to be reckoned with. Ever heard of an M1 thumb? Ever seen some one discover that the slide on a 1911 will peel their hide? How about a Walther?

 

I have seen blood streaming at shoots from gun stuff, a ricochet, and a screw driver. Just think what could happen with all of those Bowie knives if someone tripped and fell... Best just go shoot.

[Bart Solo]

I don't think the Henry should be banned. I was just trying to point out that SASS has banned period correct guns before for safety concerns and the wire is not the place to do a risk assessment.

 

I agree with Driftwood, high primer chain fires had nothing to do with the move to a loading gate in the 1866. The 1866 used the same 41 caliber rim fire cartridge. No high primers in either as they came from the factory.

[Rye Miles #13621]

I've seen accidents happen (no injuries) with cap and ball revolvers, SAA's and 73's and Marlins also! I've never seen anything happen with a Henry! I think Henry shooters are quite aware of what COULD happen and they're very diligent about their handling of them. Just my take on this!

[Hoss]

One good thing from this thread is I learned something! I occasionally shoot my 1860, and am very careful when loading, slight angle, don't drop follower etc. I will now use my right hand around barrel and magazine as I rotate and slide follower down, so just in case it slips it will hit my hand instead of the cartridges. Gonna make a stick too!

[Blackwater 53393]

I, for one, would likely discontinue shooting in S.A.S.S. matches if the Henry were banned.

 

The Marlin Company never actually said that the Model 1898 models produced subsequent to the original '98 were in fact dangerous. The letter from Marlin, which I have read repeatedly, only states that they will not be responsible for damages incurred because they cannot be certain of the quality of materials and the metallurgy of those shotguns.

 

I shot Marlin Models 24, 42, 49, and 19s and 19g shotguns in competition right up until they were banned by S.A.S.S. without the first incident. That's 1,000s of rounds of straight out of the box AA and STS shells. I still have and shoot three Marlin shotguns of that design. I also have seen more '97 blown up than Marlins, (never seen a Marlin blown up, but I know it has happened) and many more horror stories about them blowing up!!

 

Enough is more than enough!!

 

 

 

 

 

 

EDIT: I won't shoot at a club that bans the Henry if I know about it. I also shoot '66s and '73s as well, but I will still not attend and will go back home if I'm confronted with that situation.

[Rye Miles #13621]

74's?????

[Cat Brules]

The biggest concern with the 93 is the lack of a firing pin block mechanism and maintenance. With the little kid loads used in CAS I doubt that smokeless proofing is great reasoning now days. As far as a 60 goes it is a firearm with certain idiosyncrasies that have to be reckoned with. Ever heard of an M1 thumb? Ever seen some one discover that the slide on a 1911 will peel their hide? How about a Walther?

I have seen blood streaming at shoots from gun stuff, a ricochet, and a screw driver. Just think what could happen with all of those Bowie knives if someone tripped and fell... Best just go shoot.

There is a difference in the "pressure curve" between smokeless powder and black powder, which remains fact and cannot be overcome by using light or minimum loads of smokeless powder. But, that's just for your information. There's more out there.

[Snakebite]

....

The Marlin Company never actually said that the Model 1898 models produced subsequent to the original '98 were in fact dangerous. The letter from Marlin, which I have read repeatedly, only states that they will not be responsible for damages incurred because they cannot be certain of the quality of materials and the metallurgy of those shotguns.

According to Shotgun World, "During 1998, Marlin issued a service bulletin recommending that slide action exposed hammer Models 1898, 16, 17, 19. 19S, 19G. 19N, 21,24, 26, 30, 42, 49 and 49N, in addition to hammerless Models 28,31, 43, 44, 53 and 63 should not be fired as many of these guns are 70 to 100 years old and system failures can and do happen."

When they were banned, it was for the safety reason. Marlin put advertisements/notifications in the SASS Chronicle. It would have been a nightmare if something had happened, and SASS's own publication showed announcements from the manufacturer that the gun should NOT BE FIRED. Additional data from Marlin addressed the issue that many of them were ONLY proofed for Black Powder use. Although it is also true of the early Winchesters, they were chambered for 2 1/2" shells.... further increasing pressures. I've read you post of 22 December, 2013, nothing has changed The fact is/was, they told us it was unsafe... if we continued to allow it and something happened, it could really bite us in the backside. The same was true for the 93 Winchester. Right or wrong, Winchester did not indicate that the 97 was unsafe for use.

[Guest Cinch, SASS#29433]

There is a difference in the "pressure curve" between smokeless powder and black powder, which remains fact and cannot be overcome by using light or minimum loads of smokeless powder. But, that's just for your information. There's more out there.

Okay thanks!!

[travelin kid #51083]

Guys, this took an awful turn sideways from the original post,

 

First of all I'm not trying to start a crusade on banning a gun nation wide, or have SASS ban it.

 

Second of all I now know of three Indiana clubs that have banned the rifle because of incidents.

 

Third of all I just was trying to find out if any other clubs had magazine issues at a match and decided to ban them.

 

I made it clear that it was known that it's not a gun fault, but a carelessness fault.

 

I'm not going to go into why, but our cowboy club cannot afford to have an issue at the home club.

 

I also made it clear that we were told that we cannot "single out" a particular firearm during the shooters meeting, as per home club's council, it would be acknowledging that we are aware of that firearm's possible issues if mishandled.

(I know, all firearms can be dangerous or mishandled)

 

I own an 1860 and would love to shoot it at our matches and others around the state.

[Dantankerous]

Never had a problem using mine. A friend also used to shoot an 1860 and as far as I know he never had any issues.

 

As with ANY firearm, take care when using it. As with ANY tool or machine, take care when using it.

[Scarlett]

Interesting original post. I wasn't familiar with the tab loading 1860 and looked it up. Here's a good video that clearly addresses the safety of loading this type of rifle. I work the LT a lot and have never seen one. Now I will know what to look for.

 

https://youtu.be/NbfXjqDzago

 

Happy & Safe Shooting!

 

Scarlett

[John Boy]

I was wanting to ask nation wide if any of your clubs have banned the Henry 1860, or have considered banning it, and why you might have done so.

 

No clubs on the East Coast ...if any of your clubs have banned the Henry 1860

No clubs on the East Coast ... have considered banning it

For those clubs that banned the 1860 Winchester, there is a strong position that the user of the rifle should have been banned from using for it at matches

[Deadeye Drake Wilson]

74's?????

They are one better than the '73's.

[Blackwater 53393]

74's?????

Yeah! I was mad and missed a keystroke!! STILL MAD!!!

 

 

Don't push it!! It's Thanksgiving and I ain't in the mood to argue!!

[rustyfinger 22618]

As always the thread got pulled on the wrong direction

This is a local club deal

If a local club feels that there is chance of a problem they must act as they seem appropriate

This is the question for each club

[Rancho Roy]

Lots of folks shooting 1860 rifles in CAS use a 4" +/- spacer tube inserted into the magazine after loading so the follower tab doesn't hit their hand as detailed above.

 

If this was a tube rather than a solid rod, and was made of lightweight aluminum, with a spring inserted to absorb the energy of an errant follower, wouldn't this mitigate the issue we are discussing?

 

I'm going to make one for my 1860 Iron Frame and see how it works.

 

 

[Deuce Stevens SASS#55996]

Lots of folks shooting 1860 rifles in CAS use a 4" +/- spacer tube inserted into the magazine after loading so the follower tab doesn't hit their hand as detailed above.

 

If this was a tube rather than a solid rod, and was made of lightweight aluminum, with a spring inserted to absorb the energy of an errant follower, wouldn't this mitigate the issue we are discussing?

 

I'm going to make one for my 1860 Iron Frame and see how it works.

 

 

Before putting a bunch of time and energy into the project keep in mind that any external modifications made that are not specifically listed in the shooters handbook as allowed are NOT legal. Just a heads up.