Henry 1860 being banned at club level, questions

[travelin kid #51083]

I don't want to start a huge brouhaha over this topic, but I was wanting to ask nation wide if any of your clubs have banned the Henry 1860, or have considered banning it, and why you might have done so.

 

The reason I am asking is that there have two "accidents" involving the Henry 1860 at two separate clubs in Indiana within the last few of years, both resulting in injury to the shooter, and both of these clubs are banning the Henry 1860.

 

One the rifle was being picked up from the loading table, the tab on the magazine follower caught on the table edge, snapped back while the shooters hand was underneath the magazine opening, all but blew a hole in his hand.

 

The other one this year was the rifle being retrived from a staging horse, the tab caught on the horse, snapped back and again the shooters hand was underneath the magazine opening, again resulting in injury.

 

We are talikng about these incidents at our club for the upcoming 2016 season, I hate to ban a rifle, when technically it's not the Rifle's fault.

 

Long story as to why, but our Club cannot afford to have an accident, or we will proabably lose our home.

[Sleepy Floyd]

Sorry, I do not agree with banning the 1860 Henry. As stated the rifle is not the problem.

 

I do shoot my 1860 Henry occasionally and it is my backup rifle.

 

S. Floyd

[Bones Z]

Hmmm, something just not right about a gun club banning guns.

[Nickel City Dude]

I assume that you mean that the cartridges went off in the magazine when the tab snapped back onto the column of cartridges. I only saw this once on the line at an N-SSA shoot in VA. The guy was left handed and was holding the gun by his right hand and when he went to load some additional cartridges his hand hit the part of the barrel that was swiveled over and the fowler snapped down. He only suffered minor injuries and did not need to go to the hospital. It was later discovered that he had several high primers on some of the remaining cartridges which was, in my opinion the reason they went off.

In this area 1860 Henry’s are a rare bird for CAS and no incidents have been reported that I know of so no one has seen fit to ban them around here. The fact that they are not a legal gun in NY my also have something to say about there rare usage here.

That being said isn’t banning the gun much like the anti-gun people making gun ban laws on certain guns by blaming the gun because of something an individual did?

[Yul Lose]

Bad idea to ban the rifle because of operator error, IMHO. I shoot at a club where the TG and match director, at the time, fired a jammed Lightning at the unload table and there was talk of banning them because of that. It wasn't the rifle that was the problem. I'm thinking that nearly every firearm made is dangerous if not used correctly.

[Cheyenne Ranger, 48747L]

TRR does have them shot from time to time

 

Glad to say we haven't banned any type of firearm.

 

Understand how landowners can get worried about lawsuits and all.

 

Problem isn't the firearms, it's too many lawyers

 

cr

[Goody, SASS #26190]

While I am not for banning an object that cannot act on it's own, if the result of an accident would mean the loss of their range I can see it.

[Cowboy Rick, SASS #49739L]

Bad idea to ban the rifle because of operator error, IMHO. I shoot at a club where the TG and match director, at the time, fired a jammed Lightning at the unload table and there was talk of banning them because of that. It wasn't the rifle that was the problem. I'm thinking that nearly every firearm made is dangerous if not used correctly.

 

I guess this is the right answer, although a range owner needs to be comfortable with the allowed activities and the guns used therein. Several ranges have bans on legal firearms for various reasons. Perceived hazard or real, the landowner trumps all. I'd rather put up with this than loose a range. The point should be worth arguing.

 

CR

[Sedalia Dave]

What profile did the ammo in these rifles have? Round Nose, RNFP or TC.

 

Every so often I see shooters using round nose ammo in their tube magazine rifles. Politely point out that hazards of that but I am not sure if they get it.

[travelin kid #51083]

Well, I have heard from some that the 1860 has been banned at some ranges across the country, I want to know if this is true.....

[travelin kid #51083]

What profile did the ammo in these rifles have? Round Nose, RNFP or TC.

 

Every so often I see shooters using round nose ammo in their tube magazine rifles. Politely point out that hazards of that but I am not sure if they get it.As I understand it, RNFP

As I understand it RNFP, the first one, possibly was using high primer ammo that would not work in his pistols, not confirmed though.

 

Lawyer problems wise, if we single them out as to the possible hazards of their firearm’s design and make them aware during a shooters meeting, we are recognizing a potential problem and putting ourselves at liability risk

[Noz]

We have one shot regularly at our range. He will keep doing so.

[Hashknife Cowboy]

Don't ban it, its not the rifles fault. I use mine on occasion, bad things can happen to any firearm, how many of us shoot pistols with no transfer bar and firing pins on the hammer. Education of members and caution is in order. After 27 years in law enforcement I saw way too many accidents involving trained individuals and high quality safe weapons. You have got to pay attention, I once took a bullet fragment in the foot due to a dropped S&W revolver .357 at the range 4 shooters away. That is a very safe weapon and it hit just right and it went off. Fortunately it was a minor injury event but very real. Shoot smart, stay safe.

[Hoss]

I have one, usually just shoot it on our 5th Saturday matches, shoot BP with it. I take extra precautions with the follower. I would hate to see them banned as I'm afraid 66s would be next, given they have no lever safety, and are more likely than the 73 to have an OOB discharge.

[Goody, SASS #26190]

The potential for a negligent discharge exists in any firearm. I guess if the club can't handle the insurance then no ND is to be allowed, hence no firearms. I don't see singling out one as any more or less dangerous.

[Tex Jones, SASS 2263]

If the rounds are properly constructed, i.e. the primers are seated below flush, snapping back the follower will not result in a discharge of cartridges in the magazine. If that were the case, dropping a '73 with rounds in the magazine would set them off.

 

Having said that, it's your range/property, so do what you think best, for you.

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

So 'they' ban the 1860 because of a careless operator.

Once again, it's easier to blame the 'gun', over the person holding/loading it.

This 'ban' is the very highest level of STUPID

BTW: The reason they 'went-off' was due to high primers. So what are those clubs gonna do next?

Ban reloads.

OLG

[Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933]

Before everyone gets to excited about "a gun club banning guns" remember that SASS has banned Marlin Shotguns. Lots of ranges have banned the .50 BMG because of its extreme long range capabilities. The 1860 does have known loading issues. Some have gone off by just dropping rounds down the tube because the operator didn't hold the rifle at an angle. Yes, all of these things are "operator" error. However, some machines are simply more prone to such errors than others. The most important thing is not to lose the range because of an accident causing loss of insurance coverage. That is up to the club to decide.

[Snakebite]

I totally agree with Larsen. If everything is done correctly, the chances of a round going off in the magazine is very small. That being said, even though I have been loading ammo and guns for a very long time, I had the spring lever slip out from under my thumb while Properly loading a Henry rifle (barrel was at only a slight angle above parrallel) . It blew a very large hole in my hand that required a rush to the emergency room and 24 stitches. Another very experienced shooter at a neighboring range had it happen. Seven rounds went off, and he had a belly and chest full of shrapnel. He was also rushed to the ER via ambulance. The Union Army had reservations on using it due to many mishaps during the loading process. All that being said, I have NOT banned them from our club... However, if I thought that I would/might lose our range if it happened again, I would not hesitate to ban them. It is easy for someone to say Hell No, it's the shooter's fault, not the gun, but that person has nothing to loose. If you shoot one, you really need to pay attention to what you are doing. I thought that I was being very careful when it happened to me, but it just slipped, and then BANG!

 

Snakebite

[Forty Rod SASS 3935]

Hmmm, something just not right about a gun club banning guns.

It's right if it endangers the club because of liability, increased insurance rates, or loss of their venue because the landlord is being cautious.

 

Most clubs can't afford the financial costs, the bad publicity, and the expense (or impossibility) of finding a new home.

[Cliff Hanger #3720LR]

This happens about as often as the 97 shotgun having a round go off in the receiver when the slide is closed while the round is not completely in the receiver and the extractor hits the primer.

 

I have heard nothing about banning the 97 pump shotgun due to round going off out of battery.

---------------------

I have a 1960.

I place my right hand near the front end of the magazine tube.

If the barrel end happens to rotate and the slide follower is released in to the magazine, it will hit my hand at about 2" from the front end.

"It leaves scares!"

I also leave the rifle flat on the loading table until I have pushed all rounds in to the magazine.

Then I release the follower on to my hand and slide my hand back on the barrel until it rests on the rounds.

 

Loading on the clock is usually single fed through the top.

If it's more the an 4, I will hold the rifle flat while loading and releasing slide follower.

I have been next to a Henry that had 7 rounds go off in the tube.

The shooter who had this happen loaded with the magazine slot laying away from him and down range at a 45 degree angle.

No one was injured other than maybe a few soiled clothing items.

 

All guns can produce an Accidental Discharge if conditions are right.

 

I have seen while scoring, an unfired shotgun round ejected from a shogun, land on the ground, primer side down, which was covered with asphalt (kind of rough surface) and go off.

The theory was the primer was struck by a protruding rock in the asphalt.

 

These things can and do happen.

 

Band cars from the range property.

Some could get run over. <GGGG>

[Cat Brules]

Before everyone gets to excited about "a gun club banning guns" remember that SASS has banned Marlin Shotguns.............

I totally agree with Larsen. If everything is done correctly, the chances of a round going off in the magazine is very small. That being said, even though I have been...............Snakebite

Read both these replies, above.

 

These replies make a lot of sense and I would be careful of using the hot-button term "banned," other than to urge others to realize and be careful of using the term when discussing the legitimacy of clubs prohibiting the use of certain pieces of equipment because of real safety issues. Larsen should be able to speak to the liability issues a club might face when responding to an injury claim containing phrases such as, "knew, or should have known."

 

While the terms mean the same, there are subtle social perceptions and differences in how, why and when the terms are used. We all must be aware of such.

 

- Cat Brules -

[Chance Ramsay]

Well I have shot a 1860 for several years and have no problems all you have to is pay attention I have seen two 73s fire in battery no one said to ban them just my thoughts

[John Boy]

In this area 1860 Henry’s are a rare bird for CAS and no incidents have been reported that I know of so no one has seen fit to ban them around here. The fact that they are not a legal gun in NY my also have something to say about there rare usage here.

 

Dude, the Winchester 1860 IS NOT A SEMIAUTOMATIC RIFLE and accordingly is not banned because the magazine holds more than 10 rounds of ammunition!

The New York Secure Ammunition and Firearms Enforcement Act of 2013: Effective Effective Dates

Redefinition and Ban of Assault Weapon Sale /Transfer: EFFECTIVE IMMEDIATELY

- This new law redefines the term “assault weapon” using a one feature test, and bans the sale of those weapons falling under the new definition.

- The term “assault weapon” includes: (1) any semiautomatic rifle or pistol with a detachable magazine and one of the military-style features listed in the law, or (2) any semiautomatic shotgun with one of the military style features listed in the law

 

Restrictions on Magazines—Ban on 10+ Round Magazines: MUST DISPOSE OF, MODIFY, OR SELL BY JANUARY 15, 2014

- The new law also bans the possession of certain a high capacity feeding devices. Under this law any magazine that has the capacity to accept more than 10 rounds will be illegal to possess. A person who currently own such a magazine must either permanently modify it so that it holds no more that 10 rounds, responsibly dispose of it, or sell it to a dealer or out of state purchaser authorized to possess such a magazine.

 

 

[Nickel City Dude]

John Boy

 

This issue has already been debated on the SASS wire in length. You might want to check out the thread and also check with the NY state agencies listed in the thread. http://sassnet.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=244136

 

NCD

 

[Driftwood Johnson, SASS #38283]

Howdy

 

Since my 1860 Henry is my Main Match rifle, and I shoot it at almost every match, I have a dog in this fight.

 

First off, I absolutely refuse to stage my Henry in a scabbard, because the follower tab might get caught coming out of the scabbard. I have politely declined to stage my Henry in a scabbard even at the State Match level, being perfectly content to take whatever penalty was accessed. Once I explained my reasoning, an accommodation was made for me. Nobody wanted to force me to do something that I considered unsafe. I hardly ever see a scabbard at matches anymore, whether it is because of my concern I do not know. However stage writers should be aware of the problem associated with staging a Henry in a scabbard. If they aren't, someone should tell them. Accommodations can be made.

 

I too use the technique Cliff Hanger uses, wrapping my left hand around the barrel and magazine just below the opening of the magazine while loading. If the front end of the magazine should somehow accidentally rotate so that the follower is free to spring down, the follower tab will strike my hand before it reaches the column of cartridges. Yes, it will hurt like the dickens, but that is better than an accidental discharge.

 

I NEVER drop rounds straight down the magazine. I ALWAYS lay the gun on the loading table at a slight angle and allow the rounds to trickle down the tube. Laying the rifle on the table this way I require a bit more space at the table than somebody loading through a loading gate. I am not bashful about explaining why I need a little bit more space. My concern is that somebody may accidentally nudge the buttstock while I am loading, in the worst case causing the end of the magazine to swing closed. No one has every complained, at least not to my face.

 

I always try to be extra careful when removing the rifle from the loading table, and throughout the stage to be sure that the follower tab does not snag on anything. It really is not a problem when I am shooting the stage, because I am slow as molasses in January, and running around with a Henry is just not my style.

 

And I have always felt that my spacer stick between the column of cartridges and the follower may even add an extra element of safety. Something to help absorb the blow if the follower should get loose.

 

When a reload is called for, no matter how many rounds, I simply load through the top. I would not dream of attempting to load from the front of the magazine on a stage.

 

There is nothing about shooting and loading a Henry that cannot be addressed at the Safety Meeting. Nobody is shy about warning cross draw shooters not to break the 170, whether it is needed or not. Why can't the concerns about loading and shooting a Henry be addressed at the Safety Meeting too?

 

Nobody, at least nobody that I am aware of, shoots a Henry and expects to walk home with the Cadillac. It's like shooting Black Powder. We shoot the Henry because it is different, and requires a bit more attention to detail than a loading gated gun. Borrowing a phrase from JFK, 'we do these things not because they are easy but because they are hard'. Once that is understood, and the concerns are properly addressed, the problems will go away without Draconian measures.

 

 

 

 

P.S. Regarding flat nosed bullets, high primers and such in the Henry magazine. There is anecdotal evidence to show that even with sub flush primers and flat nosed bullets, a follower slamming down on the column of cartridges has been known to set one off. Don't ask me how, all I know is I have read about a couple of instances of it happening. The best advice anybody can give to the Henry shooter is to never drop rounds straight down the tube, and to always keep the follower under control. Not so different than always being aware of where the muzzle is pointing, is it?

[Ace_of_Hearts]

Similar advise should be heeded by the users of Henry Big Boy rifles about dropping round straight into the magazine. Always load at an angle so the ammo slides down the tube.

[Ozarks Ranger, SASS # 39553R]

+1 Driftwood. I too am slow. ( Knock on wood) I have never had a problem and I do the same with left hand on the tab and lay the rifle on the loading table and place the rounds in and slide them down the tube. I am retired L.E. and know about the attourneys now a days. If they ban the Henry I will have to quit shooting CAS as I can not afford a new 73. Maybe some one would make a trade :lol: BTW mine wont hold more than ten rounds. Thanks Noz for your post

[Kidd Krystin]

Interestingly this is a problem with the modern Henry used in our sport, not with the original using the ammunition it was designed for. The original Henry used a rim fire cartridge (like a modern .22) so dropping one cartridge on top of the other wouldn't have been a problem.

[Nickel City Dude]

Interestingly this is a problem with the modern Henry used in our sport, not with the original using the ammunition it was designed for. The original Henry used a rim fire cartridge (like a modern .22) so dropping one cartridge on top of the other wouldn't have been a problem.

You are correct about dropping one round on top of another but they had another problem. The cartridge box was a problem because if you just put a bunch of rim fire rounds in a box and they bounced around they could be accidentally detonated. There was a special Henry cartridge box but they were very rare. Here is a diagram of what it looked like.

[Abilene Slim SASS 81783]

Everything Driftwood said.

 

Besides me, there's only one other person I know of at my club who shoots a Henry, and Col. Luke has it under control. Gotta use your head when handling them -- just like any other firearm. All of them have quirks one needs to be aware of.

[Blackwater 53393]

I can vouch personally for the properly assembled ammo going off accidentally in a '60 Henry. I blame the incident on an extremely hot day, excessive perspiration, and fatigue. IT WAS MY FAULT!! Eight rounds of 160 gr. RNFP Were in the magazine when the follower slipped out of my sweaty fingers and set off seven of those rounds. We found all seven bullets and much of the brass still in the magazine. The magazine itself was damaged and the remaining brass shrapnel wound up in the loading table and in my hide.

 

I repaired the magazine and use the gun regularly. It is usually my main match rifle and I'm even confident of it in the woods or anywhere else. I AM more diligent now about loading and wiping my hands. This is a great rifle!! Substandard handling should NOT be a reason for precluding the use of a rifle or any gun for that matter.

[Deuce Stevens SASS#55996]

I have witnessed first hand a Henry having I believe 7 go off in the mag at the load table. RNFP bullets were being used. the rifle was laid down on the table and the follower snapped shut causing the "chain fire". I have also seen cap and ball revolvers chain fire on the line (one guy 2 stages in a row, whew that was exciting). I am torn about banning them. Knowing that some clubs have snakes that lay in wait for anything to happen so they can squash the program things like this can weigh heavy on a match directors mind. With the Henry it does not even need to be a case of gross mishandling for this to happen. Interesting topic and one that I don't really have anything of value to contribute to.

[Grizzly Dave]

I had no idea, interesting to read about, glad I haven't been around to see it first hand.

 

As to the OP, clubs have the need and right to do what they feel is best in their particular circumstances. Tough call.

 

As to the problem, is there a way to eliminate or minimize the chance of such a chain fire? A cushion on the follower to buffer an impact somewhat? I don't know, just throwing out ideas. It sure seems like a known and somewhat common issue, surely someone can come up with something!

[Major Art Tillery]

I had no idea, interesting to read about, glad I haven't been around to see it first hand.

 

As to the OP, clubs have the need and right to do what they feel is best in their particular circumstances. Tough call.

 

As to the problem, is there a way to eliminate or minimize the chance of such a chain fire? A cushion on the follower to buffer an impact somewhat? I don't know, just throwing out ideas. It sure seems like a known and somewhat common issue, surely someone can come up with something!

Wonder if you could put one of those sticky sided felt circles on the magazine tab, if that would have enough cushion to relieve an accidental discharge. Would be a cheap and easy fix.... If it worked.