38 Short Colt Brass (Small Pistol primer)

[Fordyce Beals]

In .357 chambered revolvers used with black powder substitute powder (FFG 777) can the 38 Short Colt case (Starline) be an advantage like the .45 Colt/ .45 Cowboy (ACP length)? Wouldn't it be just like using the .38 Special in .357 chamber but shorter, less case capacity, less powder for a full case, less recoil, less velocity, same chamber deposit ring?

 

And my main reason: Wouldn't the ejector rod push the case completely out of the chamber at the unloading table?

 

Fordyce Beals

[Warden Callaway]

Mary shoots the 38 Short Colt in her Cattleman revolvers and the ejector rod will kick them completely out.

[Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933]

The .38 Short Colt works fine in .38/.357 revolvers. However for BP you can't get anywhere near 1cc of powder in it. Even with 777 you might not make the smoke standard.

[Fordyce Beals]

The .38 Short Colt works fine in .38/.357 revolvers. However for BP you can't get anywhere near 1cc of powder in it. Even with 777 you might not make the smoke standard.

That would be an issue. How much powder fills the case?

Fordyce

[Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933]

I haven't measured it for a while but 1cc spills over the top of the case. You should not compress 777 so by the time you leave room to seat the bullet there isn't much room left for powder. I shot several hundred rounds of .38 Short Colt with 777 at a few matches and finally gave up rather than risk being challenged for smoke at a big match. I still have 1000 .38 Short Colt cases. If I find them and have some time I might throw a few charges and see how much powder fits under the seated bullet.

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

Shooters wishing to use what is commonly considered "pocket pistol" ammo in their main match firearms (in either smokeless or BP categories) might find it beneficial to run their reloads over a chronograph to verify compliance with SASS PF/MinVel minimums. BP shooters would be wise to compare the "smoke factor" to ensure the same for those categories requiring it.

Use of BP in a "smokeless" category requires that the ammunition meet the power factor & minimum velocity standards, rather than the smoke factor.

This might save the embarrassment of an ammunition challenge & inspection at a major match; along with the attendant penalties if the ammo fails the test(s).

 

Just an FYI.

 

PWB

[Fordyce Beals]

Shooters wishing to use what is commonly considered "pocket pistol" ammo in their main match firearms ...

 

 

Just an FYI.

 

PWB

PWB

 

Please forgive me for even considering "pocket pistol" cases. Its hard enough explaining to every ones question why I am using cartridge guns when all they have ever seen me shoot was cap guns.

 

Fordyce Beals

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

PWB

 

Please forgive me for even considering "pocket pistol" cases. Its hard enough explaining to every ones question why I am using cartridge guns when all they have ever seen me shoot was cap guns.

 

Fordyce Beals

 

NO offense or disparagement intended.

 

I recall EoT one year where, on one end of the range, two of the Range Masters were investigating reports of a shooter using .38 (may even have been a .32) "short" Colt/S&W in a BP category...on the other end another RM was waiting to "pull ammo" at the LT from a shooter suspected of using .32 S&W loads that were hardly capable of making power factor in a smokeless category.

 

The suggestion was a reminder to make certain that one's ammunition complies with the standards required for competition to avoid any problems/penalties.

[Sedalia Dave]

A 38 special case holds about 1cc of BP with no compression. I shoot FFFg APP in my 38s and find the recoil virtually identical to my TrailBoss loads using the same 125 gr bullets. Recoil is very manageable. I have not chronographed the APP loads but they take down plate racks as long as I hit above the center line of the larger plates. IIRC my 38s loaded with TrailBoss and 125 gr bullets chronographed about 725 fps

 

If you are looking for even lighter loads I suggest you try FFg and/or a powder other than 777 rather than smaller cases. 777 is significantly hotter than any of the other BP subs.

[Fordyce Beals]

A 38 special case holds about 1cc of BP with no compression.

 

S Dave

 

You have the definition of smoke standard correct. I was very surprised that the .357 Ruger Beasley Vaqueros old models I was shooting would not eject clear of the cylinder the lesser .38 specials let alone the longer .357 case. The idea was that shorter cases would eject, which was said above.

 

I guess I could dink around with the ejector profile and the cylinder pin to get more travel for the .38 specials. Is this some thing that everyone lives with?

 

Fordyce Beals

[Blastmaster]

Shooters wishing to use what is commonly considered "pocket pistol" ammo in their main match firearms (in either smokeless or BP categories) might find it beneficial to run their reloads over a chronograph to verify compliance with SASS PF/MinVel minimums. BP shooters would be wise to compare the "smoke factor" to ensure the same for those categories requiring it.

Use of BP in a "smokeless" category requires that the ammunition meet the power factor & minimum velocity standards, rather than the smoke factor.

This might save the embarrassment of an ammunition challenge & inspection at a major match; along with the attendant penalties if the ammo fails the test(s).

 

Just an FYI.

 

PWB

speaking of smokeless loads only.

 

good advice and should be extended to those shooting the 90 grainers in any of the 38cal cases and the 78 grainers in any of the 32 caliber cases.

 

Yes, you can easily get the SASS PF/FPS with the light bullets in the smallest of cases, but you can easily dip below the PF in your pursue to the minimum.

 

38 Short Colt is about like a 9mm case with a rim and we know 9mm commonly use a 124g bullet. Look up the velocity range for a 124g lead 9mm.

[Blastmaster]

S Dave

 

 

 

I guess I could dink around with the ejector profile and the cylinder pin to get more travel for the .38 specials. Is this some thing that everyone lives with?

 

Fordyce Beals

 

If you are shooting Rugers, the base pin that has the three groves that stick out under the barrel can be trimmed a groove or two, thus giving the ejector rod more travel to kick the empties out

[Sedalia Dave]

I would check with a gunsmith or two and see if you have the correct ejector rods for your pistols. BTW what length barrels do you have??

[Silver Sam, SASS #34718L]

FYI....

38 long colt makes the smoke minimum w/ ease,

is short enuf for the ejector rod to push them clear of the cylinder w/ unloading

and they're not pocket pistol ammo.............

[Lead Ringer]

FYI....

38 long colt makes the smoke minimum w/ ease,

is short enuf for the ejector rod to push them clear of the cylinder w/ unloading

and they're not pocket pistol ammo.............

You are correct. I just happen to be reading this post, while sitting at my loading bench. Just happen to have a 38 long colt case and some fff BP. 1.0 cc fills it up perfect to seat a bullet with slight compression.

Now if I can find a 38 short?

Regards,

Ringer

[Lead Ringer]

Found a 38 short colt (Starline) it basically holds 1.0cc of the fff BP, but it's heaping over the top. No room for a bullet.

 

I've also just tried triple seven and pyrodex "P" fff.

 

7 grains of 777 seam to fill it where a 105gr bullet would seat just at the top of the powder. That may make the powder factor??? Haven't shot it in years, but recall it smoked a lot and was snappy.

 

The Pyrodex "P" will hold 7.3gr and seat a 105gr bullet. And 6.5gr to seat a 125gr bullet. I'd have to ask a pyrodex shooter it those quantity's will make factor? But I doubt it would.

 

Regards,

Ringer

[H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619]

I'll offer some thoughts, coming from a slightly different direction. In one of my main match revolvers, I run .38 S&W, and I get plenty of smoke. Now, the dimensions of .38 Short Colt and .38 S&W are not identical, but they are very close. But, here is the kicker, I use a hollow based bullet whose crimp groove is slightly lower on the bullet than the bullets I use when I load smokeless in this caliber. This allows for a very slight increase in powder. I also was able to come across a good supply of balloon head cases. (Which were interestingly enough factory loaded with smokeless) This again allows for a little bit more powder. If you are concerned with not getting enough powder into the .38 Short Colt case, try looking for different bullets, and if possible, some balloon head cases.

 

If you STILL think you don't have enough smoke, there is no rule that says you can't use these loads in a "non-black powder" category and just have fun with them.

[Beartrap SASS#57175]

Hello, Fordyce!
+1 what they said about the .38 LONG Colt. Use 3F APP and you will make the SF (not sure about the "easily" part!)

They'll put you on par or better then them pesky 32H&Rs and pop out just fine.

[Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933]

S Dave

 

You have the definition of smoke standard correct. I was very surprised that the .357 Ruger Beasley Vaqueros old models I was shooting would not eject clear of the cylinder the lesser .38 specials let alone the longer .357 case. The idea was that shorter cases would eject, which was said above.

 

I guess I could dink around with the ejector profile and the cylinder pin to get more travel for the .38 specials. Is this some thing that everyone lives with?

 

Fordyce Beals

Something isn't right. Any standard barrel length Ruger (i.e., guns with barrels longer than 4 5/8") will easily clear .38s. The .357s almost clear and because there is so little of the case left in the chamber they fall out from gravity. The only Rugers that have problems with ejecting .38s are the 3 3/4" Sheriff's, Montados, Birdsheads, etc.

[Randy Saint Eagle, SASS # 64903]

In .357 chambered revolvers used with black powder substitute powder (FFG 777) can the 38 Short Colt case (Starline) be an advantage like the .45 Colt/ .45 Cowboy (ACP length)? Wouldn't it be just like using the .38 Special in .357 chamber but shorter, less case capacity, less powder for a full case, less recoil, less velocity, same chamber deposit ring?

 

And my main reason: Wouldn't the ejector rod push the case completely out of the chamber at the unloading table?

 

Fordyce Beals

I trimmed down some .38 cases to .925 and with 777 they make plenty of smoke and less recoil than full cases (less bullet room) of .38 special. They were a lot of fun to shoot at Possum Trott.

 

Randy

[Blastmaster]

Just miked a Starline 38 Short Colt case.

 

0.752 in OAL

0.053 in base

0.70in interior length (rounded)

0.358 in ID (not resized) ..use 0.356 inch

 

1 cubic inch = 16.3871 cubic centimeters (CC)

 

do the math and you could only seat the bullet in 0.10 inch to maintain a 1cc case volume (loose) for the BP

 

Edit: Now if you compressed the BP to ??? you could get the bullet to seat further in. How much, I don't know.

 

 

[C0ckr0ach, SASS #26100]

I use .38 short colts. I use a heaver bullet than most with a smokeless powder. Well above the Minimums for velocity and power factor. But lower velocity and power factor than .38 special in my rifle. Loads are tested with a chronometer

[Goody, SASS #26190]

There is no requirement that you put 1cc of BP in your case. Only that you make smoke equivalent to. There is no guarantee that if you put 1cc, or 2 cc or any load you wish that you will not be challenged, and you could lose that challenge. It is all up to the subjective eye of the beholder. The subs produce substantially more smoke with a lesser amount of powder used. Whether or not you could shoot a 38 short colt loaded with your favorite sub or BP and make the SF is all left to the whims of the person judging you.

 

That said I feel it is foolish to try and push the envelope. I think I know who PWB was referring to in his mention of EOT. If it is the same person he was shooting baby Vaqueros with 32 s&w. He showed me before he went the amount of smoke that he was producing and asked if I thought it was enough. I told him that I felt like it would not matter how much smoke he made. This being the first year of the smoke factor that I felt like he would be challenged as they would be looking for anyone pushing the envelope. He chose to do it anyway, got called, got told he was not producing enough smoke, got mad and did not shoot the rest of the match.

 

I guess my point in all of this is to ask why? Why would someone do something that may or may not get by? The smoke standard was instituted because it was needed. Anyone shooting before can tell you that there were some very questionable loads being fired. To the point that loads with Unique were making more smoke that some guys BP loads. Because there was no standard, nothing to judge these folks on. They were not cheating, as there was no rule to break. And I am not accusing you of looking to cheat, or to gain an advantage. I am merely pointing out that whatever we say here, whatever knowledge you gain here, is of little difference. At the end of the day it will fall on the MD to judge if you smoke enough. Why ruin your day by shooting for the floor?

[Beartrap SASS#57175]

Well said, Goody!

[Blastmaster]

There is no requirement that you put 1cc of BP in your case. Only that you make smoke equivalent to. There is no guarantee that if you put 1cc, or 2 cc or any load you wish that you will not be challenged, and you could lose that challenge. It is all up to the subjective eye of the beholder. The subs produce substantially more smoke with a lesser amount of powder used. Whether or not you could shoot a 38 short colt loaded with your favorite sub or BP and make the SF is all left to the whims of the person judging you.

 

That said I feel it is foolish to try and push the envelope. I think I know who PWB was referring to in his mention of EOT. If it is the same person he was shooting baby Vaqueros with 32 s&w. He showed me before he went the amount of smoke that he was producing and asked if I thought it was enough. I told him that I felt like it would not matter how much smoke he made. This being the first year of the smoke factor that I felt like he would be challenged as they would be looking for anyone pushing the envelope. He chose to do it anyway, got called, got told he was not producing enough smoke, got mad and did not shoot the rest of the match.

 

I guess my point in all of this is to ask why? Why would someone do something that may or may not get by? The smoke standard was instituted because it was needed. Anyone shooting before can tell you that there were some very questionable loads being fired. To the point that loads with Unique were making more smoke that some guys BP loads. Because there was no standard, nothing to judge these folks on. They were not cheating, as there was no rule to break. And I am not accusing you of looking to cheat, or to gain an advantage. I am merely pointing out that whatever we say here, whatever knowledge you gain here, is of little difference. At the end of the day it will fall on the MD to judge if you smoke enough. Why ruin your day by shooting for the floor?

I suppose no one has an idea of what amount of Sub is approximate equivalent to 1cc of BP as far as making smoke? Even if so, it isn't in the SASS rule book, thus meaningless.

 

What a Willy Nille set of standards that might as well not exist. Of course, one could say the same thing about PF & velocity standards being unchecked.

 

Thanks for the heads up.

 

 

No, I do not shoot BP, thought the 1cc of whatever was the limit, learned something, so I haven't got a dog in this fight.

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

I suppose no one has an idea of what amount of Sub is approximate equivalent to 1cc of BP as far as making smoke? Even if so, it isn't in the SASS rule book, thus meaningless.

 

What a Willy Nille set of standards that might as well not exist. Of course, one could say the same thing about PF & velocity standards being unchecked.

 

Thanks for the heads up.

 

 

No, I do not shoot BP, thought the 1cc of whatever was the limit, learned something, so I haven't got a dog in this fight.

 

The best way to get a close approximation of whether one's BP (or sub) loads comply with the "smoke standard" is to compare them side-by-side with rounds loaded according to the rulebook "test load"...in the same firearms being used for a match.

REF: RO2 pp. 9-10

 

Anyone loading to the absolute minimum required risks being tested at a major match.

Penalty for "failure to adhere to category guidelines" is the progressive P/SDQ/MDQ.

 

BTDT (the testing part, that is)

 

IMO...the only "filler" I use in my BP ammo is more BP.

[Blastmaster]

 

The best way to get a close approximation of whether one's BP (or sub) loads comply with the "smoke standard" is to compare them side-by-side with rounds loaded according to the rulebook "test load"...in the same firearms being used for a match.

REF: RO2 pp. 9-10

 

Anyone loading to the absolute minimum required risks being tested at a major match.

Penalty for "failure to adhere to category guidelines" is the progressive P/SDQ/MDQ.

 

BTDT (the testing part, that is)

 

IMO...the only "filler" I use in my BP ammo is more BP.

Thanks PWB

 

When I posted equivalent, I was thinking more scientific quantitatively (volume measurable) comparison.

 

It would have been so much simpler if the rules just said 1cc by volume of BP or Sub. You could have smoked out some of the violators just by looking at which shell case they were using.

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

Thanks PWB

 

When I posted equivalent, I was thinking more scientific quantitatively (volume measurable) comparison.

 

It would have been so much simpler if the rules just said 1cc by volume of BP or Sub. You could have smoked out some of the violators just by looking at which shell case they were using.

 

Testing might still involve pulling & weighing the bullet, as well as measuring the powder charge.

FWIW - BP smoke standard and PF/MinVel testing are the most intrusive & distracting procedures in the game.

Best advice is to not even attempt to run ammo at either minimum level to ensure that it is never challenged.

[Blastmaster]

 

Testing might still involve pulling & weighing the bullet, as well as measuring the powder charge.

FWIW - BP smoke standard and PF/MinVel testing are the most intrusive & distracting procedures in the game.

Best advice is to not even attempt to run ammo at either minimum level to ensure that it is never challenged.

Some more good advices,

 

Don't go to a match/gun_fight with a broken gun. i.e. a 97 that doesn't feed from the magazine.

 

Hit the targets dead center and don't count on edger calls.

 

Don't attempt to recover a dropped round.

[Sedalia Dave]

I suppose no one has an idea of what amount of Sub is approximate equivalent to 1cc of BP as far as making smoke? Even if so, it isn't in the SASS rule book, thus meaningless.

 

What a Willy Nille set of standards that might as well not exist. Of course, one could say the same thing about PF & velocity standards being unchecked.

 

Thanks for the heads up.

 

 

No, I do not shoot BP, thought the 1cc of whatever was the limit, learned something, so I haven't got a dog in this fight.

It depends on the sub and against which manufacturers blend of BP you are comparing it too.

 

Every makers blend of BP makes a different amount of smoke. Same goes for all the subs. Some make more smoke than others.

[Snakebite]

I suppose no one has an idea of what amount of Sub is approximate equivalent to 1cc of BP as far as making smoke? Even if so, it isn't in the SASS rule book, thus meaningless.

 

What a Willy Nille set of standards that might as well not exist. Of course, one could say the same thing about PF & velocity standards being unchecked.

 

Thanks for the heads up.

 

 

No, I do not shoot BP, thought the 1cc of whatever was the limit, learned something, so I haven't got a dog in this fight.

 

Well the standard may be "Willy Nille", but nobody was able to come up with anything that would work better and be easily applied on the spot, at the range during the match. The bottom line was that the shooter in a BP category was suppose to be producing "enough" smoke. If the shooter was in question, and three judges compared the shooter's ammo against the standard and judged his/her ammo to be producing less smoke than the "Standard" ammo, then that was considered to be a good enough test. Depending upon the weather the amount of smoke produced varies... that is why the ammo in question must always be compared against a "standard" round. This was not a haphazard system that was thrown together overnight. It took a long time, a lot of work, and was tested from one end of the country to the other by some of the best BP shooters in the game. Before this standard was instituted there was NO REQUIREMENT for BP shooters to even produce smoke at all! The standard accomplished what it was designed to do and provided a means to challenge shooters in the BP category who were NOT producing smoke or producing very little smoke.

 

Most BPs and Subs were tested in virtually every cartridge that is/was used in this game. All were tested with .5cc, .7cc and 1cc of each powder. Some cartridges would meet the standard with less than 1cc of any given powder. All cartridges would meet the standard if loaded PROPERLY with 1cc of powder. I say properly because it is possible to load 1cc of a certain powder and produce little smoke. (that is what brought all of this about in the first place) Bottom line is this.... you can load .5cc or 2cc, it does not matter... what matters is that you must produce as much smoke as the standard.... yep, it is subjective, and the judges might very well have a hard time determining if your load is short of the standard... IMO, if it is not readily determinable, then it passes. Loading a 38 short with BP/Sub might work for you in a high humidity situation where everything smokes so much that it's hard to tell the difference... however, it might very well come up short of the standard in a low humidity situation.

 

Very few BP shooters try to get under the wire. Once in a while I see someone moving into a BP category for what they believe is a "Easy Win", who try to do it by not producing much smoke. It often works for them at the local level, but when they get to a big match, the REAL BP shooters will challenge them............ and win!

 

Snakebite

[Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933]

I can never understand why anyone that does not like smoke wants to shoot in the BP categories.

[El Hombre Sin Nombre]

I can never understand why anyone that does not like smoke wants to shoot in the BP categories.

Right? I am always looking for ways to make even more smoke, not less. If anyone has any ideas on that, let me know.

[Snakebite]

Right? I am always looking for ways to make even more smoke, not less. If anyone has any ideas on that, let me know.

Eat the Green Burrito the night before the match... it might not make it smoke more, but it will burn their eyes more!

[Blastmaster]

Question please

 

Since it isn't listed anywhere,,, what gun, with which cartridge, with which bullet, and with which flavor of BP (FF or FFF) is the 1cc smoke standard based upon? Since people say all things change the amount of smoke?