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New to CAS / Henry Big Boy Questions


Brian5271

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Thank you all for the replies. I will go to a match for sure and will not make a buying decision until I fire a few different rifles. With that being said, I am still intrigued by the HBB as I will be using it for a lot more than just CAS stuff.

 

I am leaning towards the HBB (although less so now after reading all of your comments) in spite of its slowness because it seems to be particularly well suited for activities outside of CAS. My line of thinking is that if I really get into CAS and do a lot of events, then I will eventually want to get a dedicated rifle just for competition. By that time I would know more about what class or division I would want to shoot. If this is the case, the HBB would not go to waste as I would still use it for other things.

 

It seems to be unanimously agreed that the HBB is slower than others, I am just trying to gauge how slow. Does anyone know how fast they can be run?

 

Is it capable (providing the shooter does his job) of doing a 10 shot string in 5 seconds? 6 seconds? 7 seconds? Anyone with firsthand experience regarding this?

 

So ... Am I crazy thinking about the HBB knowing everything that has been said about it?

 

Some folks have touched on this but, expecting to be competitive with any out-of-the-box stock gun is not likely to happen. I've said this many times. You can take the family sedan to the track once or twice and run hell out of it, but if you do it on a regular basis, you gonna look up and see you crankshaft in the rear-view mirror. Race cars have to be tuned to race, so do guns that are raced.

 

The Big Boy is basically a Marlin 336/1895 style action less the loading gate. It can be made to run well but it generally requires more than just springs. Sadly no one offers aftermarket parts for it. A once piece firing pin and widder style mods to the carrier would go along way toward a race ready HBB

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Brain,

 

That is a great group of people at Wes Thompson's. I've shot W3G, CAS, and Wild Bunch (side matches) there. If you haven't already, you should talk to Lefty Longridge. He will get you on the right track! He also gives lessons.

 

Best wishes for some fun times.

 

Regards,

 

Allie

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I had the opportunity today to look at a steel Big Boy.

 

It is noticeably lighter than its predecessor. The bolt now has a deepened slot at the point just before it engages the empty shell. This should improve ejection reliability even though ejection still requires a full forward stroke of the lever.

 

I look forward to working on one in the near future.

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ACE,

 

I have a new HBB Steel in my safe that will become a winter project between me and Doc Fill 'Em. WE will be doing some minor mods to it and making notes to determine if these particular rifles can be improved to a noticeable degree.

 

Improvements to 'what degree' is subjective but we are hoping it can be improved enough to feel reliable using in SASS/CAS competition.

 

In his generosity, DOC donated the new HBB Steel.

 

 

..........Widder

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ACE,

 

I have a new HBB Steel in my safe that will become a winter project between me and Doc Fill 'Em. WE will be doing some minor mods to it and making notes to determine if these particular rifles can be improved to a noticeable degree.

 

Improvements to 'what degree' is subjective but we are hoping it can be improved enough to feel reliable using in SASS/CAS competition.

 

In his generosity, DOC donated the new HBB Steel.

 

 

..........Widder

I will be looking forward to the results.

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Interesting..

 

Asked a simple yes/no question.

 

Only four posters could follow the stage description of:::: stating a Yes or No answer. The rest rambled on about something else . I will be nice and stop here.

Probably because your original question was based on the false premise that "if you could only afford a Henry" you couldn't also afford other rifles in the same price range, like marlin and the cheaper Rossi.

 

You state it as a choice between the Henry and not shooting, but the cheapest Henry at my local shop is $637 (Big Boy Steel in .45 Colt).

 

I can get a Rossi 92 $200 cheaper ($444) or a new Marlin .44 Mag, like I use, for $572. A while back, another local shop had a Uberti 66 .38 for $650 used or $750 new.

 

In other words - "afford a Henry or don't shoot" isn't really the choice. If you can afford a Henry, you can afford several rifles that have a loading gate in the receiver and other CAS advantages.

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In 1866 Winchester introduced the King patent loading gate to the "improved henry" this set the standard for all big bore levers since then. In their great wisdom, Henry decided to not only take a long and clunky action and put it into a very heavy brass frame, but they decided that they don't need no stinking loading gates... What a bunch of clowns, King and Winchester got it right 150 years ago and these guys think they can make it better by going back.... Do yourself a favor and get something that is more authentic to the period, you wont regret it. (better yet, get one of each ;))

 

Now if only Henry could build an 1860 or a 66 that could compete with Uberti in quality and PRICE, then they would sell thousands of them.

 

DD what shoots Classic Cowboy

 

PS I despise Rugers and low hung holsters too. :D

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I'd still like to have Henry's "Original Henry" but I probably wouldn't use it for CAS.

 

Same as I'd like to have Winchester '73 with Winchester on the barrel, even though Uberti is probably better and neither is US made.

I highly doubt anyone that has felt and used both would say that the Uberti is better than the new Winchester. And I have a 73 with Winchester on the barrel that is indeed American made.

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ACE,

 

I have a new HBB Steel in my safe that will become a winter project between me and Doc Fill 'Em. WE will be doing some minor mods to it and making notes to determine if these particular rifles can be improved to a noticeable degree.

 

Improvements to 'what degree' is subjective but we are hoping it can be improved enough to feel reliable using in SASS/CAS competition.

 

In his generosity, DOC donated the new HBB Steel.

 

 

..........Widder

I changed the main spring out for an adjustable Marlin Main Spring.

I reduced the length of the magazine tube spring.

I polished the breach block that locks into the bottom of the bolt.

I polished the bearing surfaces on the lever where it contacts the receiver. (Around screw hole)

I relieved and polished the upper portion of the chamber where the nose of the bullet contacts it on being chambered.

I relieved and polished the upper portion of the rear of the magazine to make it easier for the nose of bullet to slide by.

I polished the front face of the carrier.

I polished the face of the hammer and mating portion of the bolt.

On older models I put in a much stronger extractor spring and polished the hole that the pin slid in.

 

All of the above was done on Henry Big Boys. These made the gun reliable and as smooth as could be.

I considered making a one piece firing pin, but just don't have the time with all the stocks I am making.

 

I look forward to here how the above transfers to the steel version.

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ACE, thanks for all that info.

 

I followed all your steps of improvements and confirm those would be things I would have done..... but I plan to look real close at the Extractor spring and maybe experiment (modify) with it, particularly working with it on the lighter side of tensions.

 

I will probably consider some carrier mods also.

 

BUT, I really have yet to open it up and start any work on it. I got about a dozen high priority Marlins to fix first.

 

I plan to share any positive modifications and probably have a video to view to help show details and results.....assuming everything turns out well.

 

Stay tuned!

 

Best regards,

 

 

..........Widder

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I bought a HBB before I knew what SASS was. Then, when I started CAS 3 years ago this month, I decided to use it in my 1st match. It jammed right away with 8 in the rifle. I would have been clean at my 1st match (assuming those 8 bullets found steel). Pretty much everyone told me the HBB was a beautiful rifle, but couldn't take any speed at all. Great for deer hunting, but not for CAS. So, I bought an 1873 Uberti short rifle, got it slicked, & was off to the races.

 

Also, didn't care for the tube reload on the HBB.

 

The HBB is still in the safe, & is still beatiful, but I don't shoot it.

 

I also bought an 1866 later & had it slicked, but lots of reasons caused me to sell it & stick with the '73.

 

Welcome to CAS! Most fun you can have that I know about.

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Interesting..

 

Asked a simple yes/no question.

 

Only four posters could follow the stage description of:::: stating a Yes or No answer. The rest rambled on about something else . I will be nice and stop here.

Yep, absolutely horrible how people insist on speaking without your permission, isn't it.

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Yep, absolutely horrible how people insist on speaking without your permission, isn't it.

 

And, yep, most folks who want a specific answer to a question start their own topic, rather than hiding their follow-on question in a long string of answers to another Original Poster's question, thus avoiding the irritation of not getting their own special question answered to their satisfaction.

 

:lol:

 

Good luck, GJ

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Rare that a thread stays on topic from start to finish,,, as can be seen in this tread.

The op asked about 8 questions. The thread stayed on topic and people explained why they felt the way they do and explained other options.

THEN YOU jump in with your own problem riddled question and complain about a thread getting off track. You have got to be joking.

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I thought I would answer your post before I read the mass amount of opinion about the big Boy Henry. First off I like you was attracted to the Big Boy for similar reasons as you. (All valid reasons) So here is my experience. I purchased a new Henry about 10 years ago. Be careful that the Henry is allowed in your potential shooting categories.

 

Caliber; I shoot Classic Cowboy so 45 long colt was my choice, I also shoot Wild bunch (requires 45 also). Big Boy not allowed in either!

 

It took me a full year of shooting most weekends to begin to appreciate the speed factor. Once I was able to improve my rifle strings into the sub 10-second range I began to appreciate the speed issue of Cowboy rifles. I would say the most important aspects of speed for me was developing a very smooth technique to lever the rifle quickly. As I started cranking harder, I noticed in videos that the rifle was rocking (rotating on the bore axis). The length of the cocking stroke and the resistance imposed by the hammer spring being the biggest factors. At this point, I began to polish all of the moving parts that were developing wear marks. Lift pivots, hammer pivots, the entire bolt. While this provided some satisfaction and confidence, there were really no measurable improvements. I determined that most of the effort was overcoming the hammer spring and the block that prevents the gun from firing without the trigger being pulled.

 

Unfortunately, no one makes tune-up parts for the Henry Big boy but, the Henry and the Marlin share similar mechanics so things that work on the Marlin are good candidates on the Henry if you can figure out how to achieve them.

 

I found that the adjustable hammer spring from a Marlin rifle is a good starting point. The spring I purchased had some plastic shims which you could insert to fine tune the hammer. After carefully removing coils, 1/4 coil at a time, I eventually got to the point that some of my Federal primers would not ignite. At that point I added back a plastic shim, now I had the spring set for reliable ignition. At this time, I began thinking that a one piece firing pin would be better for striking energy but could not find one. The next issue was reliable ejection. No matter what I did, if I didn't crank hard on the lever, full stroke, the last round would hang up on top of the carrier and not eject. (A 10-second penalty) The round was not held by the bolt, just laying on top of the carrier. If I was careful to tip the rifle to the ejection port as I placed it down the round would usually fall right out. I called Henry and they advised to send them the gun for repairs. Despite all of the polishing I'd done and the Marlin spring, they replaced all the parts I had touched and provided a newer generation bolt and cocking lever. (legendary customer service) Unfortunately, this didn't cure the problem and I see many Henry Big Boy shooters having the same experience to this day. I will say that as long as you are very deliberate about your cocking motion it doesn't happen often. Anything short of a full stroke and you are likely to have an issue.

 

So that's about the extent of the mechanical modifications.

 

So after a few years I got better than my equipment. I purchased a 1866 yellow boy from Long Hunter in 45 long colt. It was delivered with a short stroke kit, tuned springs, and full octagon barrel (I'm a big guy and like the swing weight). Very shortly afterwards my rifle strings dropped into the sub-5 second range. I noticed in videos that I was wrapping my thumb over the top of the stock unnessesarily and started practicing to part my thumb on the side of the receiver, cocking with only my middle and ring finger with very little effort. I noticed my accuracy improve as the cocking motion settled down and all the movement was only in the lever action it self. (Watch most top shooters and you will see very still guns as they work the action)

 

I would say that all of these advantages are a result of the springs and stroke. The other thing you mentioned is the 38 caliber round. If you go that way you mighty look into a magazine tube liner. Both the 38 and the 45 have the same mag. tube diameter. If you could see the rounds stacked up in the tube in a 38, you will see that they have a tendency to stack up off center of each other and some shooters experience feed problems with certain ammo.

 

At the end of the day I love this sport and have fun no matter how competitive I am. In retrospect, when i startyed I could not afford the $1,440 to buy a slicked up 1866. I paid $600 for the big boy and got started with what I could afford. I don't think there is a place in Cowboy Shooting to bad mouth or look down on anyone or their equipment.

 

If you shoot with me and are having a problem I will offer you one of my guns to shoot. If you are having a mechanical issue I will offer you parts if I have them.

 

Do I regret starting with the Big Boy,,,,Hell no!

 

 

 

 

 

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A Rossi .92 is less expensive than a Henry Big Boy...

A Rossi '92 CAN be slicked up to run reasonably fast. The Henry Big Boy can not.

The only perceived plus for the Big Boy would be... made in the USA

Heck, my used Marlin '94 (mfg'd in the 1970's) cost less than a Henry Big Boy

 

So, to answer Blastmaster... NO

 

An aside that has nothing to do with the original posters question... Although I run mostly '73s. I started with a Rossi '92 Wish I had it back it was a .45 that could take a real hot load.

Finally got a great deal on an original Winchester '92 in 38wcf. Got it for the price of a new Rossi. I'm very happy with it.

I still shoot Uberti '73s in competition. But I don't regret any of my '92 purchases. When I get to Elder Statesman, and I start selling off all my extras... what I'll hold onto will be my original Winchester '73, My Winchester '92, and my Colts.

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