New to CAS / Henry Big Boy Questions

[Brian5271]

Hello All,

 

This is my first post here although I have been searching through the forums for a week or two trying to find the answers I am seeking.

 

I am getting ready to buy a new lever action rifle that I can eventually use in Western 3 Gun and other CAS events. The rifle that I have been eye balling a lot is the Henry Big Boy in 357/38. I really like the look of this gun and it being made in the USA is a huge deal for me. I am not at all concerned about it not being an authentic cowboy design.

 

I have read many of the reviews here and elsewhere and it seems that the HBB is not well thought of for CAS. From what I have read, many here think they are good rifles, just not suited to this sport because they are “slow”.

 

Before asking my questions, let me tell you a bit about my goals and experience. Although I am new to the CAS world and lever guns in general, I am not new to shooting or competitions. When shooting competitions I generally finish middle of the pack, although I have won my division a couple of times in action pistol. I am a not very fast (in fact I am kinda slow) but usually fairly accurate. I do competitions because they are fun and I don’t try to compete against the gamers who are really into speed.

 

So with that in mind, I have a few questions I am hoping you all can help me out with. When you talk about the HBB being slow, what exactly are you talking about? I understand that a heavier gun will be slow to swing and will tend to over swing the target. That doesn’t concern me too much too much as I am not super worried about the clock; what does concern me is jamming while trying to run it fast. Is this a real issue? I don’t mind being slow because I am a slow poke, but I do mind being slow because my equipment is malfunctioning. I want my equipment to be faster than me.

 

If the problem is jamming, here are some follow up question; does it jam because people tend to short stroke it and not run through the full motion of the lever? Or is it just a design that is not effective at cycling fast?

 

I have read it is more finicky with 38’s then it is with 357’s, is this correct? Also, does the 45 have the same issues?

 

And the big question, when talking about it not being fast enough to be competitive, just how fast are you talking about? One round a second, two rounds a second, three, four? What is the magic number?

 

Thanks in advance for the advice.

 

Brian

 

PS – Still trying to pick an alias. I have it narrowed down to Creekside Owens or Sierra Sidewinder. Both are a tribute to my favorite camping / fishing spot.

[Boulder Canyon Bob# 32052L]

Welcome, you're gonna have more fun than you can stand. Most every new cowboy shooter shooter asks similar questions. The BEST advice everybody gives is go to a couple of matches BEFORE you buy any guns. Ask lots of questions, cowboy shooters will fall all over themselves letting you handle and shoot their guns . You'll save lots of time, money and frustration doing that, plus you'll meet some really nice people and make a few new friends. In my opinion HBB are great rifles and the fact that they're made in the USA is a big deal, but as you've noted very few shooters use them in competition. I'm not a gun smith, but I've watched a shooter in our local club use one and it's slow. I know there are a few shooters who use them, but for my money I'd go with something else. Loading them can be cumbersome.

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

So, after all that reading, you still are convinced that most CAS shooters don't understand what makes a good rifle for the sport?

 

Then let success speak. Out of 800 top shooters at say, the National Championships in Phoenix last February, there might have been 10 HBB rifles on the property. There were probably 400 73's, 100 66's and 200 Marlin 1894s. And a handful of 92s and 50 or so Lightnings.

 

They are a low cost, but very hard to run fast, gun. Sorta like driving a Fiesta at a NASCAR race. No speed parts. No top line gunsmiths willing to work on them. Load slow, shoot slow, heavy and clunky.

 

Made in USA is your goal? Then get a Marlin rifle.

 

GO to some local matches, watch and ask. We'd like you to spend what money you do spend getting started in cowboy shooting so that you end up happy and fulfilled. Not frustrated and upset that you wasted your hard earned funds.

 

Good luck, welcome to the game! Watching some folks run rings around what you think cowboy guns can do, might be the most fun you could have right now!

 

GJ

[Anvil Al #59168]

"but I do mind being slow because my equipment is malfunctioning"

 

 

Then you don't want the Big Boy.

There is a reason you don't see people using them.

And I think GJ was generous to say there was 10 out of 800 shooting BB's.

I would say there was not even that many. I did not see one. And have not seen one

at a match in a long time.

 

There is a reason for that.

[Tom Bullweed]

You have two options if you want American-made. The Marlin 1894 in a cowboy version is the faster, more available option that is has a proven record of being in the hands of mighty good shooters. For most shooters, it is a tad slower than a Uberti 1873 or 1866, but not by much. Ecpect to spend $1000 for the gun and $200 to make it match ready. The second option (my favorite) is to shoot original Winchester 1873s and 1892s. You must reload this ammo because the factories don't load alot of .32, .38 and .44 WCF rounds. You will also want to tame the velocity on the rounds to preserve the rifle. Expect to spend $1000 for a shooter grade 92 or $1500 for a 73. Parts are expensive on these guns, but they are well made and will last a long time of not mistreated.

You asked about times. This varies greatly by shooter. For me, a very average shooter, q0 rounds go through a tuned Uberti 73 in about 5 seconds, an original 73 in 6.5, an untuned Marlin in 6.5 and a tuned original 92 in 7.5.

I believe the HBB to be the most expensive gun on the market. It may have a lower price point but going to a match and doing poorly because of equipment is expensive and having an unsellable gun not matched to the sport is expensive.

[Widder, SASS #59054]

Howdy Brain..... and WELCOME to the Wire and hopefully, a great life in SASS/CAS with the rest of us.

 

If you don't mind my asking, where are you from. Somebody on here might live close to you and can help direct you to some local matches, etc.....

 

First of all, "gamers" are in it for fun also. And like you, everyone wants their equipment to be faster than they are. None of us want to be hindered by equipment that can hinder our performance whether it be slow, fast or super fast.

 

I don't have any personal experience with the HBB. But in my 10 years of active SASS/CAS, I have seen a handful. And of those I've witness, the owner seemed to always have to use a methodical, almost robotic, movement of the lever to ensure the rifle functioned o.k. Yes, I have seen 1 or 2 that worked during the whole match without any jam problems, but the shooter was working the actions in a slow method.

 

Would those same rifles be efficient at high speeds? I don't know.

 

HBB are a hard, if not impossible, item to resale to other Cowboys. Not so with some 73's, 66's and JM brand Marlins. The 92's also have a reasonably good resale value.

 

As for myself, I am not aware of any gunsmiths who work on the HBB. I'm sure there might be some, but I don't hear of any.

 

Your choice of caliber is a good choice. But there is so much variances as to why a lot of us shoot the calibers we prefer that it would be impossible to say one caliber has much virtues over another. For myself, I shoot the .32 rifle and .45 pistols.

 

As for actual speed, your top shooters can run their 10 shots in 2 seconds. Some less, some little more.

 

Your good to mid pack rifle shooters are in the 3 second range. And your average shooters are probably 4-5 seconds. Thats just an estimate on my 'guess'. These times are obtainable with properly tuned 66's, 73's, and Marlins. And lets not overlook a properly tuned 92 can run faster than most folks realize. Deuce Stevens has a short video shooting 10 shots from a 92 and it is smoking fast.

 

You ask about 'jamming' and working/cycling the action completely. Well, from my view, WE ALL can encounter that situation when we don't function our rifles correctly.

 

Hope some of this info helps.

 

 

..........Widder

[Lone Dog, SASS #20401]

You have two options. The first is to ignore those of us who have been at this for years and go ahead and buy a BB. Your hopes that it can be campaigned competitively in CAS will then be dashed on the big hard rocks of Truth and Reality. The BB is the worst of all possible choices for this game. Next worst -- the Winchester 94 is light years ahead of the BB. In the past decade I have seen a dozen or so newbies and a few not so new shooters show up with that BB thingie and come to grief. Only one stubborn old phart brought one back for a second match and even he did not try it a third time It is an abominable clunky jammamatic. Some people like them I guess but they are hunters or plinkers or hang it over the firepace admirers None are cowboy action shooters.

 

Or you can listen to us and get a good rifle and not waste your money and it is a big waste as the resale to any of us value is zero

[Abe E.S. Corpus SASS #87667]

I don't own a Henry Big Boy, and I would not recommend them as a competition rifle, but I will say that I have seen them function OK in a match. I read lots of reports on the Wire to the effect that they don't work at all. In my experience that is an overstatement.

 

Here is a video of a stage at this year's SC State Match of a shooter using a HBB. He's not particularly fast but the rifle functioned: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lyQtA4AF0_I

 

I notice that HRA now has a "Big Boy Steel" version out with a blued receiver and round barrel. It is a little lighter than the original. I expect the action would function the same.

 

In my opinion what we need is for Marlin to "get back in the game" and resume making the 1894 rifles in quantity, and making them well. I did get my hands on a recent production 1894c .357 and it fed cowboy .38 ammo just fine.

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

Have you fired a HBB yet? They be heavy.

PLEASE attend a couple of shoots BEFORE you buy anydangthing.

You just might find some killer deals on good used gear.

OLG

[Blastmaster]

I know a Pard that shoots a HBB in 44 mag with pretty stout reloads in both his rifle and 44mag pistols. He is not fast & not slow either, but pretty accurate. He has fun and has been doing it for the last couple yes. There other ways to have fun than going at break neck speed with your guns

[Jailhouse Jim, SASS #13104]

I have a friend who has used a HBB for years and is happy with it for what it is, a rifle to get him to matches. He is on a budget, slow and not so smooth but the rifle works for him with decent black powder loads. He also shoots Navy '51's and an '87 clone.

 

I started CAS with a Winchester Trails End 94 in 45LC with a John Wayne loop (another of the so called bad rifles) twenty years ago. I used that rifle for 5-6 years and still bring it out for B-Western sometimes. It's smooth, reliable, and feeds black powder loads well but is slow to work because of the long action required. Nate Kiowa Jones can even make it run almost as fast as a 92.

 

Then, I went with an original 73 and liked it alot but being born in 1892, I didn't want to keep beating it up so I bought a Chaparral 73 (don't get the wire started on that one) and had it smoothed up. When I got it back, I had to "fix" the gunsmith's work because he had never worked on a Chappy and didn't know how to set it up. Other than no short stroke kit, the rifle runs like wind after a little more tweaking.

 

I bought a Rossi 92 that had been worked over by Nate Kiowa Jones and really like that rifle. Smooth and fast for a non-short stroked rifle. It's an import but is a great rifle for someone on a budget and will give years of service. ($500.00)

 

The last rifle I bought was a Chaparral 73 carbine length in 45LC as a project because the owner couldn't get it to run. That rifle was quite a challenge to get running right. After some grinding, smoothing, and massaging, I have it running pretty well. Being a 45LC, there is a lot of blow back even with heavy BP loads so the lifter gets grimy and starts to get sticky. Lube the lifter every third stage and it runs decent. Smokeless ammo would work better. There are no parts sources for the Chappy but many of the original Winchester parts will fit with a little file work.

 

All that being said, if you want to run with the big boys, yer gonna have to get a rifle that can be run hard and fast. There are a lot of choices as noted by previous posters. If yer going to a match now and then for fun, the HBB can work once you get the know the peculiarities of the rig. 38/357 is a good choice for caliber. If for nothing else, it's a real purty gun in brass to hang on the wall :-)

[Griff]

Take the following with a grain of salt: I've advocated the following course of action in regards to outfitting oneself for CAS for nigh onto 30 years. "Carry your carcass out to the nearest match. Locate the Match Director, tell him/her you're interested in getting started and could he point out a helpful cowboy/girl or two who'd be willing to advise a newbie." Understand that they'll be busy, the person they direct you to will be interested in getting themselves ready for the match... be patient, and, yes, listen to what they say.

 

In the 30 years I've played, I watched at least hundred, and heard of many hundreds that have ignored this advice, and spent far more than necessary to get themselves outfitted with guns... and not a few, just quit in frustration... I also know of one person that kept saying, "I'll come out when I get all my stuff together... a good costume and all the guns... unfortunately, he passed away before that happened... and the first time we talked, he had "adequate" guns... and could have been having fun for at least a year before he passed.

 

I started out with a mdl 94 Winchester in .30-30, but upon arrival, found that they'd changed the rules earlier that year to outlaw that caliber, (too many folks seemed to not understand what "downloading" meant). A fellar there loaned me a mdl 92 Rossi in .357/.38Spl., and I shot that for nearly 18 mos., before a friend sold me his 1873 Uberti rifle. Still shooting that same rifle to this day... but, have added another 1873, an 1860 Henry and an 1894 Marlin, in addition to 2 more 1892 Rossis. And use them depending on what else I'm shooting, what my costume is, and, most improbably, my mood! Amongst the slowest of the slow is that 1860 Henry, with it's exposed follower, requiring a little forehand manipulation to not impede its progress, is still faster than the HBB. I couldn't begin to tell you why... the geometry of the gun is good, it doesn't have a loading gate (King's Patent) in the side of the receiver to impeded rounds transferring from the magazine to the carrier, yet... they still seem to have a hitch in their get-a-long.

 

My rifles have all had some action work done of them, (no short strokes tho'), and while I don't try to run fast, I want to be smooth, I can and have shot into the high 20s for a 24 shot stage, but... it's been so long, that most of the folks are taken aback when I shoot a stage in the high 30s! I actually strive to shoot my stages of that same number of shots in exactly 60 seconds... every stage, time and time again. I do this by trying to shoot a spot on each target where no one else has shot... if it's a buffalo silhouette, I'll shoot to put a lead smear where the eye should be... if it's a cowboy torso, I'll shoot for the hat... if the cowboy has feet, I'll shoot for the feet, if hands, I'll shoot for the hands... all places where there's seldom any other marks from other's shots! But, if put in the hands of a top shooter, I want my equipment to run just as well as theirs does.

 

So, given that I'm trying to avoid going fast... why ain't I using a Henry Big Boy, you might ask... Well, it's like I said above, I want to be smooth. and if I find myself falling off my pace a little, I want to be able to speed up if I have to... I can do that with my 1873s, 1892s & 1894. I've shot a HBB, and I can't with them. Good guns, well made, with an excellent warranty and sterling customer service... but... just not suited to CAS.

 

By the way, be advised that lever action rifles, similarly to an auto feed pistol are OAL and nose shape sensitive. SWCs and any shape with a nice square leading band will not feed well until the rifle has been ramped specifically for them... Same with very wide meplats on the Marlin or 1892 Winchester... The bottleneck 32-20, 38-40 & 44-40 are best suited for them. Straight walled cases, not so much. Myself and many, many others have used .38Spl/.357, 44Spl/Mag or 45Colts to good effect, but, one must pick one's bullet & load to a viable COAL with care.

 

Of my 2 1892 Rossis in 38/357, I've got them tuned to use the same COAL, but it took some finessing of the guides to do so. Others have simply gone with using .357 cases and tuned their loads to 38spl ballistics. You'll see some shooters with "puff-tink" loads, these are unnecessary, unless you're really recoil sensitive, some positive feedback is a good thing. With the handguns, the recoil helps put the hammer closer to your thumb to cock for subsequent shots, especially important when shooting one-handed. Most folks like their handgun and rifle ammo to be of the same cartridge, even if they use a different bullet... for a variety of reasons... feeding in the rifle, accuracy or... just "wantin' to!"

 

One thing I can assure you of... you'll suffer for no lack of advice... good, bad or indifferent, if you only make it known you're looking for some. (I will add, that you'll get very little of the "bad" variety... but take that "bad" to mean, maybe "not the best" for you... but remember, maybe it was for them what're givin' it)!

[Short Wagon]

As one of the foolish people who use a Henry Big Boy, I will add my advice and that is listen to what everyone else on the wire says. We bought the Henry before going to our first match and it was not a great decision. They are very accurate right from the factory, but since we shoot at fairly close targets even if they are (IF-your milage may vary) more accurate it does not really matter. They are very heavy compared to other lever rifles and with no way to speed them up, they will not help you in any way. As soon as my wife got a 73 I got her hand-me-down HBB and am stuck with it for now. On the bright side, depending on where you live, they can make a great hunting rifle!

 

tldr- listen to what 99% of people say and avoid them.

[Cordell kid]

Hello, this is my first post as well, so Howdy to everyone! OP, I also own the HBB but in .45, although it is my go to ranch gun, it's as slow as molasses running down the side of the tree. When ever I try to push it hard, it just jams and I'm stuck tearin it apart and clearing it. The great thing about the guys here telling you to stay away from them is they have the experience to know if something is going to work in the sport. I would suggest NOT buying anything until you go and talk to some fellow CAS at the range and see if you can try their guns and compare them till you find one that works for you. Keep in mind what works well for one may do poorly for another and vice versa. Just my .02. Good luck, God bless.

[Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217]

Welcome Brian and Cordell Kid!

[Blastmaster]

Question to all readers of this thread:

 

'If' the HBB rifle was the only rifle you could afford to own AND partisapate in SASS...would you purchase it and play??? Or elect not to and find something else to do?

 

A simple Yes or No answer is all that is needed.

 

My answer...Yes

[Tyrel Cody]

@Blastmaster: Yes

[Short Wagon]

Question to all readers of this thread:

 

'If' the HBB rifle was the only rifle you could afford to own AND partisapate in SASS...would you purchase it and play??? Or elect not to and find something else to do?

 

A simple Yes or No answer is all that is needed.

 

My answer...Yes

yes, that is why I use my wifes old one (she always gets the new gear). It is better to have a Henry and shoot SASS than do anything else on a weekend!

[LostVaquero]

Okay I use a Big Boy. It is the steel version which puts right at a Marlin in weight.

Now I have a Marlin as well that has had some work but the Big Boy still feels smoother to me. Neithrr are 73 short stroked fast and I have seen plenty of those malfunction.

 

Pretty much the springs are similar enough to a Marlin you can use them. I have not tried it yet but the ejector looks the same as well.

 

Like a Marlin and other similar carrier rifles it is OAL case sensitive. I use bullets that allow me to set them at 1.53 and it has no problems. Need an extra round? Toss it in the port works just fine.

 

Inherently the rifle is basically a Marlin 336 like action

[Texas John Ringo, SASS #10138]

Question to all readers of this thread:

 

'If' the HBB rifle was the only rifle you could afford to own AND partisapate in SASS...would you purchase it and play??? Or elect not to and find something else to do?

 

A simple Yes or No answer is all that is needed.

 

My answer...Yes

NO

[Widder, SASS #59054]

Blastmaster: No.

 

 

..........Widder

[Ace_of_Hearts]

It seems like I repeat this every three months or so.

 

Most of the "Old Hands" at this shoot some kind of rifle that has had action work done on it by someone. Almost no one that shoots this sport more than six months has a rifle that is unmodified in some way. That is where the advantage comes into play.

Rifles modified to work as race guns will be faster and smoother than factory rifles. The Winchester 66 and 73 are at the top of the list for available modifications and fewest moving parts. (Less part = smoother action and higher speed)

The Henry Big Boy is at the bottom of this list. It has numerous internal moving parts and the fewest available after market speed parts. (You can replace the hammer spring and the ejector with an adjustable spring for a Marlin 94 and an Ejector for a Marlin 94).

The rest of the work is in the smoothing and polishing of the internals of the rifle so that they work in unison. (The same has to be done to every rifle if you want it to function reliably)

My Henry Big Boy functions well and shoots stages in the same time range as my Marlins.

Rifles are like women. Treat them right and they can be very fast!

[El Hombre Sin Nombre]

Question to all readers of this thread:

 

'If' the HBB rifle was the only rifle you could afford to own AND partisapate in SASS...would you purchase it and play??? Or elect not to and find something else to do?

 

A simple Yes or No answer is all that is needed.

 

My answer...Yes

I'd still play this game if I had no rifle and they made me throw rocks at the rifle targets.

[Cordell kid]

Question to all readers of this thread:

 

'If' the HBB rifle was the only rifle you could afford to own AND partisapate in SASS...would you purchase it and play??? Or elect not to and find something else to do?

 

A simple Yes or No answer is all that is needed.

 

My answer...Yes

yes

[Cordell kid]

Welcome Brian and Cordell Kid!

Thank you ma'am

[Mad Hattie]

I learned this game using a Henry Big Boy. Sure weren't the easiest gun to shoot, but I'll tell you what - learning with a big ol' heavy rifle like that taught me some good habits and when I got my '73 I was surprised as heck at how easy I could run it. Kinda like the cowboy action equivalent to a baseball player practicing his swing with a weighted bat. Now, I'm fast as heck with my rifle! Course, it's the only gun I can shoot fast...

 

 

Edited to add: As a matter of fact, I'm holdin my Big Boy in my profile pic!

[Jefro, SASS#69420]

Blastmaster: No.

 

 

..........Widder

Yep, No..........but yes , I would still shoot by borrowing a rifle till I could afford one . We have shooters that have taken up to two years to get all of thier gear together. One feller used my 44/40 so much that I just let him take it home so I didn't have to clean it after each match....we both shoot real BP Good Luck

 

Jefro Relax-Enjoy

[Abilene, SASS # 27489]

Question to all readers of this thread:

 

'If' the HBB rifle was the only rifle you could afford to own AND partisapate in SASS...would you purchase it and play??? Or elect not to and find something else to do?

 

A simple Yes or No answer is all that is needed.

 

My answer...Yes

 

I would say NO because the question is based on a false assumption that HBB's are inexpensive (only compared to a new toggle-link gun). I could get a '92 for less than a Big Boy and if I was on a budget that is what I would do.

[Tyrel Cody]

I'd still play this game if I had no rifle and they made me throw rocks at the rifle targets.

 

Nah, we'll make some SMOKE bombs to throw.

[Smokestack SASS#87384]

Question to all readers of this thread:

 

'If' the HBB rifle was the only rifle you could afford to own AND partisapate in SASS...would you purchase it and play??? Or elect not to and find something else to do?

 

A simple Yes or No answer is all that is needed.

 

My answer...Yes

No, I would buy a '92 and some ammo.

[El Hombre Sin Nombre]

Nah, we'll make some SMOKE bombs to throw.

Good point. I should have said as long as I can throw rocks with BP. And shoot gunfighter of course. Even if I have to throw my BP charged rocks with each hand

[Sedalia Dave]

Question to all readers of this thread:

'If' the HBB rifle was the only rifle you could afford to own AND partisapate in SASS...would you purchase it and play??? Or elect not to and find something else to do?

A simple Yes or No answer is all that is needed.

My answer...Yes

Flawed question as there are other SASS legal rifles that cost the same or less than a HBB and are better suited for this game.

[Rye Miles #13621]

I'd suggest one of these, not made in the USA but it is a Winchester. You can get one for about $1100.00 Pretty slick right outta the box!

 

http://www.winchesterguns.com/products/catalog/category.asp?family=027C

[Chili Ron]

Howdy,

Go right for a 73 and have it tuned and you are done.

Do it once do it right.

Best

CR

[Blastmaster]

Interesting..

 

Asked a simple yes/no question.

 

Only four posters could follow the stage description of:::: stating a Yes or No answer. The rest rambled on about something else . I will be nice and stop here.