Straight Arrow Hombre Posted September 28, 2015 Share Posted September 28, 2015 Never seen a barking PM get the herd of cats to bunch up, behave and advance toward the LT or relieve others of duties. Just saying. My experience also Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirty Bart No. 100006 Posted September 28, 2015 Share Posted September 28, 2015 I like to start off spotting first then shoot. Been doing it this way and works for me. I just don't like spotting for Deuce because he's so darn fast m afraid might make a mistake. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bart Solo Posted September 28, 2015 Author Share Posted September 28, 2015 Sooooo...the only reason to have a Shooting Order is to make up for a Posse Leader that doesn't want to work to keep his/her posse running efficiently. My gawd...how sad. Phantom PS: What difference does it make if folks are lined up at the loading table...or just simply standing around??? I'd rather the loading table be full then a bunch of people just hanging out doing nothing. The faster we get shooters through the stage, the faster we get relief. I don't really care if people are standing in line at the loading table. My practice, when I have a choice, is to volunteer early in a stage. I keep working until there are only a few people left. By that time I know the stage cold and have been able to figure out how I am going to shoot it. Anyway I like doing posse chores. I was just trying to point out the justification I have heard for shooting in some sort of order. They seem to think order keeps things moving. God knows the first posse to finish wins. . I can become upset when a lot of folks on a posse stand around doing nothing after they shoot. That happens occasionally. Mostly, however, shooters like to pitch in. That is especially true at the bigger matches. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Hombre Sin Nombre Posted September 28, 2015 Share Posted September 28, 2015 This is an interesting topic for me because I have never shot at a match that didn't have a shooting order. I may be new at this game, but I have shot at 7 different clubs in the last year and there's always a defined order. Now once the order is read off, changes can be and usually are made for such reasons as to allow shared guns and what not. And usually the first shooter is asked if he or she is ok shooting first. If not, someone else will usually volunteer for it. As for where in the order I prefer? Well ideally it's either the first 3 or the last 3. I don't really care how others shoot a stage because 9 times out of 10 I'm the only gunfighter so I have to shoot it differently anyway. And since I am usually the youngest person on my posse, I like to be free for the most amount of time to help out with the chores. So shooting right away or toward the end allows me to take on whatever duties are needed and not have to constantly swap out the flag or brass picker, or usually both, and then take it up again later. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Original Lumpy Gritz Posted September 28, 2015 Share Posted September 28, 2015 Most shoots the PM asks for a vote as to as you want or in order as listed... Jabez Cowboy Have never-ever heard any PM ask for that. OLG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dewey Cheatem, SASS #75620 Posted September 28, 2015 Share Posted September 28, 2015 In 8 years of shooting I've never had to shoot in a shooting order. This is a shooting sport to have fun and you shouldn't be dictated when your going to shoot. With that said I usually go in the first 5 if I'm not a PM. If I am it's usually in the last 5 because I want to get the majority of the shooters through the stage. I don't really care where I shoot as long as I get to shoot. DC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boggus Deal #64218 Posted September 28, 2015 Share Posted September 28, 2015 I like to shoot late and with an alias like Boggus Deal, Bart, I feel your pain. I run a lot of posses. I will usually ask and if the majority wants to shoot in alphabetical order, so be it. However, we WILL rotate the first shooter to the bottom for the next stage every stage. You shoot first this stage, you're last in line next stage. You won't be first every stage. But to answer your question, If I have to shoot first, I will take my time to go over the stage and to make sure my guns are loaded correctly. I will not feel rushed and I will not rush a shooter to get their guns loaded and shoot a stage. Take your time. You paid your money to be there like everyone else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Most Wanted Posted September 28, 2015 Share Posted September 28, 2015 Have never-ever heard any PM ask for that. OLG Our area is usually shooting order so some PMs have asked that question. It really seems to be an area thing. Also our area is a "lunch break" zone. Fortunately one MD has been taking a vote on that also. Have never seen taking a break win but have seen shooting order go both ways. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fast Enuff Posted September 28, 2015 Share Posted September 28, 2015 All 4 or so of the clubs that I shoot at regularly shoot in order, including ours. It isn't like match directors decide to use shooting orders to piss people off. Just the opposite the attempt is to try to keep it enjoyable for the shooters and keep the match functioning. It just depends on the shooters and the issues and what has to be done to get through the match. Nothing nefarious about it. The last few years I've only shot 2 or 3 matches per year that are when ready. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phantom, SASS #54973 Posted September 28, 2015 Share Posted September 28, 2015 All 4 or so of the clubs that I shoot at regularly shoot in order, including ours. It isn't like match directors decide to use shooting orders to piss people off. Just the opposite the attempt is to try to keep it enjoyable for the shooters and keep the match functioning. It just depends on the shooters and the issues and what has to be done to get through the match. Nothing nefarious about it. The last few years I've only shot 2 or 3 matches per year that are when ready. What does this "Shooting in Order" accomplish? List them for me...cuz I'm slow. Phantom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Hombre Sin Nombre Posted September 28, 2015 Share Posted September 28, 2015 What does this "Shooting in Order" accomplish? List them for me...cuz I'm slow. Phantom Let's me know when I should need to hit the loading table because I know who is always ahead of me. Other than that, I couldn't tell you because I have never done it any other way. But I'm easy. Just tell me which direction to shoot and I'm good to go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fast Enuff Posted September 28, 2015 Share Posted September 28, 2015 It does and has helped solve the issues of everyone knowing when to shoot and when to work. It has also solved the 6+ people at the loading table issues. It also solves the problems that not everyone can be last, and not everyone can be first. No bitterness of never getting the position you want at the table. The rotation puts everyone early, middle and late at some point in the day. Maybe that wasn't your experience in your area, but it has worked here. When you have a when ready posse and a bunch of people fighting over who is going to go first then work hard the rest of the stage that's very fortunate. It just works for us at our club, and others I've been to, and I've shot both ways and will shoot either. I don't really care in the end as long as it works smoothly. (I don't care how FAST. We absolutely hate rushing people. The shooting in order lets us relax MORE because everyone knows when they are going up to shoot.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Most Wanted Posted September 28, 2015 Share Posted September 28, 2015 If you come up in an area that uses one way when you go to a match that does it the other way it's odd. No big deal ether way. A posse can be a wreck under ether system and a PM can/should only have to say so much before it takes away from their fun. Around here it's order. When we travel it's mostly when ready. Only had one posse make me think when ready wasn't a good idea. I will usually shoot late but if my match is gone I'll start to shoot early. Soo I guess I'm in the when ready camp if there's a choice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bramble Mountain Buzzard Posted September 28, 2015 Share Posted September 28, 2015 It used to be that you shot in the order your name appeared on the sign-up sheet. Seemed like the top of the sheet and the bottom of the sheet filled first. Then the later people filled in the middle. I think as more and more clubs are going to the ACES system, people are becoming accustomed to a "when ready" system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tracker Mike SASS #38824 Posted September 28, 2015 Share Posted September 28, 2015 The SASS scoring software has a random posse assignment option that eliminates the alphabetical or sign-up sheet dependency when generating the scoring sheets. We usually generate them as random and just tell everyone to adjust as needed to fit your "style". We always seem to have plenty of volunteers for first or second anyway... The posse list order is a starting point and the posse adjusts as needed - seems to work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217 Posted September 28, 2015 Share Posted September 28, 2015 The SASS scoring software has a random posse assignment option that eliminates the alphabetical or sign-up sheet dependency when generating the scoring sheets. We usually generate them as random and just tell everyone to adjust as needed to fit your "style". We always seem to have plenty of volunteers for first or second anyway... The posse list order is a starting point and the posse adjusts as needed - seems to work. I do not like the "random posse assignment" method of making score sheets. An alphabetical list is easier for the scorekeeper, whether you go "when ready" or go "in order" (which should only be used with drop two). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phantom, SASS #54973 Posted September 28, 2015 Share Posted September 28, 2015 You mean...folks don't know when to shoot and when to work?? And if doing it in "Order" is so that the score keeper knows the shooters alias, that kinda flies out the door when shooters are not ready. Y'all sure that "Shooting in Order" is all that good??? I'm yet to see any redeeming value to shooting in a pre-defined order. Phantom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boggus Deal #64218 Posted September 28, 2015 Share Posted September 28, 2015 Phantom, I was wondering that same thing! If they don't when to shoot or when to work, they probably wouldn't like my stages. They would have to think about how to shoot it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blastmaster Posted September 28, 2015 Share Posted September 28, 2015 If you don't like to shoot in the earlier part, and your name starts with a 'M-Z', you may like the shooting order. Just saying Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phantom, SASS #54973 Posted September 28, 2015 Share Posted September 28, 2015 If you don't like to shoot in the earlier part, and your name starts with a 'M-Z', you may like the shooting order. Just saying Not if those in front of you bail out cuz they ain't ready... So...it's shooting in order...if folks are ready...maybe... oy... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blastmaster Posted September 29, 2015 Share Posted September 29, 2015 Not if those in front of you bail out cuz they ain't ready... So...it's shooting in order...if folks are ready...maybe... oy... Well ya,,,, but those at the bottom of the list have that illusion to comfort them. Another thought, the older the customer, the more fiber and structure they need in their life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Appaloosa Amy, #63949, CT Posted September 29, 2015 Share Posted September 29, 2015 If someone tried to tell me I was shooting first all match because my alias started with an A they would be Very disappointed. I had only been shooting for a few months and my hubby for only a few more than that, when we got talked into going to our State Championship. We didn't know all the rules at that point but on our first stage our scorekeeper said we were shooting in order. I had never shot first before and was so nervous I promptly got a P. We get to the next stage and the scorekeeper (who's husband was posse marshal) tells me its a State Level rule that you have to shoot in order..why would she lie... Any way, Stage 2...P # 2. Stage 3... P # 3 and by then I was in tears. Thank God the guy shooting 2nd took pity on me and insisted we rotate. The best (or worst) part of the story is when the scorekeeper had to shoot first I was watching the unloading table and she came off that stage complaining how horrible it was to shoot first and how much she hated doing it. Tears now dry I said "But it was fine when you made me shoot first on every stage". Shortly after that we got RO certified so we could run a posse the enjoyable way which includes no order. An order ends up happening on its own and everyone seems to like it. I see no reason to make folks do something they don't want to do...its supposed to be fun. AA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mad Dog Jack, SASS #77862 Posted September 29, 2015 Share Posted September 29, 2015 I have shot in order a lot, and probably as much as ready, I came to prefer as ready later in my "career" and earlier in the shooting order as well. I just paid close attention as the stage was read, and the questions asked. Earlier I used to watch how certain shooters shot the stage to get ideas, but found I could also get in trouble trying to remember to do something and forget something else. Don't remember shooting alphabetically but must have a time or two. It's all good! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boggus Deal #64218 Posted September 29, 2015 Share Posted September 29, 2015 I had only been shooting for a few months and my hubby for only a few more than that, when we got talked into going to our State Championship. We didn't know all the rules at that point but on our first stage our scorekeeper said we were shooting in order. I had never shot first before and was so nervous I promptly got a P. We get to the next stage and the scorekeeper (who's husband was posse marshal) tells me its a State Level rule that you have to shoot in order..why would she lie... Any way, Stage 2...P # 2. Stage 3... P # 3 and by then I was in tears. Thank God the guy shooting 2nd took pity on me and insisted we rotate. The best (or worst) part of the story is when the scorekeeper had to shoot first I was watching the unloading table and she came off that stage complaining how horrible it was to shoot first and how much she hated doing it. Tears now dry I said "But it was fine when you made me shoot first on every stage". Shortly after that we got RO certified so we could run a posse the enjoyable way which includes no order. An order ends up happening on its own and everyone seems to like it. I see no reason to make folks do something they don't want to do...its supposed to be fun. AA Appaloosa, I am sorry you were treated that way and glad you stuck around. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ripsaw Posted September 29, 2015 Share Posted September 29, 2015 Interesting discussion. I've shot at three different clubs, and there is always a shooting order. I like being in the middle. I can spot for a few shooters, to better understand the stage, then get my guns and go to the unloading table, passing spotter duty to one of the first couple shooters. It never occurred to me that a match would be managed with no shooting order. Then again, I'm an engineer, so I expect stuff to be structured... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ace_of_Hearts Posted September 29, 2015 Share Posted September 29, 2015 Interesting discussion. I've shot at three different clubs, and there is always a shooting order. I like being in the middle. I can spot for a few shooters, to better understand the stage, then get my guns and go to the unloading table, passing spotter duty to one of the first couple shooters. It never occurred to me that a match would be managed with no shooting order. Then again, I'm an engineer, so I expect stuff to be structured... Sometimes posses are split into an A & B group/posse. A posse works while B shoots, then B gets to work and A shoots. The order of A & B is usually reversed on the subsequent stage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lorelei Longshot, SASS #44256 Life Posted September 29, 2015 Share Posted September 29, 2015 I've always liked shooting first or second, preferably first. With old age, it is easier for me as the stage instructions have just been given, and sometimes if I wait too long, they dump from my brain's random access so I have to be coached more. I am also simple minded and if I've watched too many shooters shooting different in order to be really competitive, I get more confused. I'm never going to be fast, especially when a lot of movement is involved. I'm shooting for the fun of hitting steel and hopefully getting a clean stage and possibly a clean match. I listen to the directions and pick the easiest way to shoot for me to remember and shoot. Some shooters discuss different ways to improve their time. I try not to listen because I end up confused and mess up ending up with a procedural. Shooting first avoids hearing too many options of how to cut time. Lots of people hate to shoot first. If someone gets there before me and wants to shoot first, that's fine and I shoot second. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blastmaster Posted September 29, 2015 Share Posted September 29, 2015 Excellent post. Perfect posse would be having four people 'wanting' to be 1st,2nd,3rd & 4th. And after the reading, they immediately go to their gun cart, get their guns, pick up there 'pre-loaded' ammo strips,SG belt already filled, and immediately head to the LT. First shooter would be ready as soon as TO & 3 spotters were chosen, and then command: Shooter may stage. The rest can probably manage after that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frederick Jackson Turner Posted September 29, 2015 Share Posted September 29, 2015 Your protocol should be the same for shooting at any other time on the posse. Review the stage. Check your round count. Load. Check your firearms for proper index. Make certain that you have shotshells in your belt, and reloads for rifle and pistols. Mentally, check the shooting order and your positions while firing. Go, when called. Breath. Shoot. Never allow yourself to be hurried; from the loading table to the unloading table, be efficient, be brisk; but that time is YOURS. It is useful to have a pre-stage protocol that you follow, every stage, every match, every time. Familiarity breeds comfort, and once the buzzer sounds, you'll be wrestling with enough adrenaline to power a locomotive. That said, Shooting Order? Seriously? Please. I'm an adult. The guns are real, the ammunition is real, I paid money to be here, and I'm in it to win it. I'll let you know when I'm ready. And I'll be helping with the posse chores, until then. Cheers, FJT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blastmaster Posted September 30, 2015 Share Posted September 30, 2015 Hummm, Topgun shoot offs have a shooting order. Ya don't see the Top Guns standing around waiting to get ready, or who to shoot against. I favor, shoot when ready, and if no one is ready, then stand around and wait to see who breaks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geronimo Jim SASS # 21775 Posted September 30, 2015 Share Posted September 30, 2015 Some people may have a tough time with short term memory. Lots of chemotherapy can cause this. Old age as well. These people find it really tough to shoot at the top of the order. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boggus Deal #64218 Posted September 30, 2015 Share Posted September 30, 2015 Your protocol should be the same for shooting at any other time on the posse. Review the stage. Check your round count. Load. Check your firearms for proper index. Make certain that you have shotshells in your belt, and reloads for rifle and pistols. Mentally, check the shooting order and your positions while firing. Go, when called. Breath. Shoot. Never allow yourself to be hurried; from the loading table to the unloading table, be efficient, be brisk; but that time is YOURS. It is useful to have a pre-stage protocol that you follow, every stage, every match, every time. Familiarity breeds comfort, and once the buzzer sounds, you'll be wrestling with enough adrenaline to power a locomotive. That said, Shooting Order? Seriously? Please. I'm an adult. The guns are real, the ammunition is real, I paid money to be here, and I'm in it to win it. I'll let you know when I'm ready. And I'll be helping with the posse chores, until then. Cheers, FJT +1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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