"Old school" CAS/SASS shooting

[Lead Friend, SASS #53635]

I started with a small and far club, also on the Front Range. So small and far, in fact, that I had to know which consecutive pistol was on which hip so I could adjust them each to hit the targets. Action jobs by Bob Munden were totally pointless. It took me two years to shoot a clean match, and I shot every month and have always shot pretty dang good when there ain't a clock on my shoulder. Average stage time for me was forty-five seconds plus as a mid-pack shooter when things went well, and most often they didn't. The game we played at the time was not "The Game", and over time I got bored with it. I came to believe through indoctrination that our club was authentic and nobody else was but still boredom set in. After a five-plus year break and a new focus I really like close and fast. I'm still a mid-pack shooter but now my average stage might be thirty-two seconds, and I'm getting faster at every shoot, and I can improve that through my own effort. I will never be the fastest person at a shoot unless there is a flu epidemic but the more I practice the faster I get and I enjoy that yardstick. When you take the clock out of the equation with small and far you can't get any better than clean and slow and clean and slow can be achieved at the range alone. Close and fast is immediately interactive and has been more fun for me. I have reached that conclusion having invested in them both.

 

Having said that I would never diminish anyone's collective memory here about the way things were. The older I get the more I enjoy the concept of the way things used to be. I enjoy in principle shooting with a small and far club but time and money being what it is I shoot where I experience the most joy and there is plenty of fast and close nearby to take up my limited resources and free time. We vote with our feet and our wallets. I just want to take that limited window of free time on a weekend and have fun, and this is how I currently measure fun.

 

Clearly, your mileage may vary.

[Griff]

That sounds like fun. I might have to take a trip down to Fresno one of these days and try out your shoot. I'd love to see that charging buffalo.

Go, you will have fun.

[Lou Graham, # 26112]

My memory tallies with Snakebite. Crawl under the fence. Draw a card to determine the first target to shoot. Throw the knife. Climb on the horse. Climb out of the bathtub. Take the saddlebags with you from this position to the next to the next. Flip the table in the bar over and shoot from behind it. All on the clock. Yes, some targets were big and some were small, some close and some far.

 

The change is that there was an element of luck as well as the need for non-shooting abilities. A lucky roll of the dice and a little extra agility on and off the horse could make a middle of the road shooter the winner. Not making a good or bad evaluation but it did change the "character" of the game. That's just a fact.

 

If you show up expecting a standard match and it's a retro match, you might be unhappy. If you stepped out of shooting for a significant amount of time and have just come back, you might be unhappy. There should be room for both, just make sure the prospective participants know what to expect and it should all be fine.

[McCandless]

And that's a shame, everything these days is about money, money, money!

 

Bought a gun for $1300 and not fast enough... have someone slick it up for another $300 or $400! Still not fast enough.... take some lessons, there are plenty out there holding classes and seminars on speed shooting. Still not fast enough... hire a shooting coach! All of this so you can shoot steel targets the "cowboy way" .......... or has the "cowboy way" faded along with the spirit of the game as well?

 

The more I'm around SASS, the more I realize it's loosing it's old west flavor and will soon just be another speed shooting event like so many other clubs with the only difference being the weapons being used and the odd participant wearing a cowboy hat!

 

Sadly, nothing can stop the downward spiral as too many folks making money from slicking up guns or selling speed gadgets and brainwashing everyone into thinking it's more FUN to shoot at a 4'x8' target 5' in front of you instead of actually knowing what the sights on a pistol are there for!

 

Probably the only reason the targets aren't 4'x8' sheets yet is that they would be too heavy to carry and set up!

 

For pure fun and challenge, shoot Frontiersman... hammers still have to be stiff enough to reliably fire the caps. There's the element of luck involved because the breeze could die for you while helping your competition. Did the sun shine bright for you and cause a "white out"? Did a cloud help someone else? Did a percussion cap fail to fire?

Yep, I remember the days when a stage scenario was read before the shooting instructions, and we did stuff on the clock that didn't have to do with shooting and we rode stick ponies or shot from mechanical horses bobbing up and down... lovede it all.

Now sometimes the morning sun comes over the berm on a bright summer day and completely obliterates the stage after the first shot! (87 second stage!!) It's my way of having fun. I'm never going to be blazing fast, so relax and enjoy, cuss out the smoke, cap, sun, breeze, whatever! It's just a game!!

I happily shoot whatever the match is... and happily grumble over misses and penalties over something wet, with friends afterwards.

 

Beats having to go to work and take care of them folks what got beat, stabbed, shot, wrapped around a tree, or just got busted up!

[Lunger]

Years ago, I was at an old school annual. Another shooter and I were really close in the stage times, but he was out shooting me by a little. Last stage we threw a dull knife on the clock, at a rock hard stump, and I can't remember anyone getting it to stick for a 10 sec bonus. He tried the knife, and it fell to the ground, but he shot the stage well. I flung the knife out of my way at the stump, and just focused on shooting. By chance, the knife stuck in the stump, and I was delared the top shooter for the match. Bingo is a game of chance, and a shooting competition shouldn't be.

[Matthew Duncan]

... Bingo is a game of chance, and a shooting competition shouldn't be.

Think you nailed why SASS has changed

 

SASS didn't start out as a shooting competition. Just a bunch of friends getting together to relive their childhood using real guns.

[Yusta B.]

Really - if there's enough shooters to support either format, then there's nothing wrong with either one. Jist pick the one(s) you like & GO SHOOT !

[VICIOUS, SASS#8014]

HOWDY; As being in the game for 25 years, I believe you got it. It was a game of chance where sometime anyone could win if they had a lucky day. The fastest and best shooter lost many match's and that ticked them some. So here we are today at a shooting contest.

[Deadeye George]

HOWDY; As being in the game for 25 years, I believe you got it. It was a game of chance where sometime anyone could win if they had a lucky day. The fastest and best shooter lost many match's and that ticked them some. So here we are today at a shooting contest.

 

So here we are today at a shooting speed contest, nothing more. In my mind a shooting contest implies marksmanship not just who can pull a trigger fastest.

 

I also think having a "lucky day" is a bit overplayed here, I'm sure that most of the time the more accurate shooters would prevail over pure dumb luck.

[Litl Red]

Anything can become boring.

 

No law requires all stages to be fast or all to be slow. But when they're only one way all the time...

[Griff]

Think you nailed why SASS has changed

 

SASS didn't start out as a shooting competition. Just a bunch of friends getting together to relive their childhood using real guns.

Nope, SASS came along well after it became a shooting contest masquerading as a costume contest. A few mental & physical gymnastics were considered part of it. Practice for the winners involved more than just shooting 50,000 rnds/yr!

[Snakebite]

No doubt in my mind that a good mix is best. I do agree that it can be a little over the top thowing the hawk or whatnot while on the clock.... but it can be done off the clock for a bonus. The point is..

PLAY THE GAME. If a pure shooting experience is all you are after, then there are shooting sports that do it better than CAS. Our game is best when it is PLAYED.
Snakebite

[Widder, SASS #59054]

I always find it humorous when one of the shooters of the "old school" starts to brag about how great it use to be when targets were smaller and set further out.

 

I don't hear it often, but it does happen.

 

Then I ask that shooter what kinda of guns he is shooting. He loves his new 73 with the 3rd or 5th generation short stroke. And he loves his new short stroked Rugers. And he loves his new SKB thats been finely tuned and honed. They allow him to shoot faster. Then he discovered that close targets also allowed him to shoot faster and have more hits.

 

He remembers those good ole days because he was younger and was more energetic. He wouldn't dare try to skip around on a stick pony now. And his eyes allowed him to see a little better back in those good old days.

 

In my opinion, the game changed out of necessity. Mr Cowboy wanted to get MS Cowgirl involved and travel with him. And then they wanted their children OR grand children to enjoy shooting those fine guns of yesteryear.

And in order to accomplish those goals, it was discovered that its more fun to hit targets than it is to throw a knife, rope a wood horse or ride a stick pony.

 

SPEED just happens. We're a competitive people. We hunger for competition. Its in our blood.

 

Our 'good ole days' just didn't happen with SASS. For some of us, we couldn't wait till every Friday/Saturday night to meet in large groups at the 1/4 mile long FLAT strip of road on the west side of town. Because we loved to compete with our cars, special motors, tires, and even bring a beautiful cheerleader with us to enjoy our quest for SPEED.

 

We LOVE our westerns more when there is always a Fast Gun in the show. Whether it be Matt Dillon, Wyatt Earp, or Johnny Ringo. We love the speed stuff. Clint Eastwood is just as popular as The Man With No Name as he is as Dirty Harry Callahan with a mighty .44

 

The trend for bigger and closer targets in SASS might not be the best thing for everyone, but it has been accommodating to help grow memberships and participation over the past few years. I won't travel 5-10 hours and stay in a motel for 3 nights just to shoot at targets that are small and distant. But I will travel and spend good money to attend a match where competition is allowed to be at its best.

 

Well, for whats its worth, those are my thoughts.

 

 

..........Widder

[Snakebite]

Widder, I agree with of some of what you say, but not all. A faster slicked up rifle, handgun and shotgun have nothing to do with target size, it just makes the tool better, and has been done since the very beginning. It took a little time before the Short Stroked guns came into play. At first NOBODY wanted to shoot a 73 rifle because they were so slow. This game has always been judged by the speed at which the participant played the game. It's still about speed. But it's changed. Kinda like lowering the basketball hoops so more players can dunk the ball. Yeah... if that's what they want, then that is what they will get, and I'll be right there with them. I don't recall hearing anyone BRAG about how great it use to be, some, like myself, fondly remember how much fun the game use to be... and it still is fun..... but of course only those guys that were playing the game back then would know. Anyone that thinks the game use to be just small far targets never played the game back then.

 

Snakebite

[El Hombre Sin Nombre]

I don't know if this counts as old school, but I shot off the buggy seat of a stage coach yesterday. That was a first for me and was really different in how I had to handle and shoot the guns. But it sure was fun.

[Blastmaster]

RK,

 

Old school😊

[Blastmaster]

Dt

[Snakebite]

+1, that's a good start.

[Griff]

I don't know if this counts as old school, but I shot off the buggy seat of a stage coach yesterday. That was a first for me and was really different in how I had to handle and shoot the guns. But it sure was fun.

No. Now if there'd been a big ol' boy back behind ya makin' the seat rock WHILE you were shootin', That'd been OL' SCHOOL!

 

Anyone that thinks the game use(d) to be just small far targets never played the game back then.

 

Snakebite

Lookin' at old videos can be misleading as perspective will make the sizes & distances appear smaller and father than they actually were. Were some places using smaller targets and longer distances... yes, yet there were many others that were constrained by their physical locations, and targets were just as close as they are today. Many cowboy clubs when starting up, used the targets they had on hand, from matches like formatted like steel challenge, speed plates, etc., and gradually built up their own, unique targets, which tended to be bigger... as, even back in the "old school" days, we liked actually hitting the steel! Targets were often more spread out, using the entire width of a bay, instead of one little corner for all the rifle targets... and in the days before short stroke kits, that actually helped the guys/gals using '73s, as the shorter, quicker actions of the 1892 & 1894 would take just as long to swing from one side to the other, negating their quicker, shorter strokes. Same is true today, just in reverse!

[Snakebite]

+1 Griff

 

I liked the horse on the rail that your pards would push you down range while shooting left and right. I always tried to get guys that would push you faster.

 

Snakebite

[Deadeye George]

Just curious since size of targets seems to be dividing the "good ole days" and now. What are most of you calling "small" targets and "far away"?

 

I recently bought some steel targets to take out practicing with. There is a set of four 8" round targets swinging from chains held by an 8' rod so they are about a foot apart and there are six 6" targets on a "dueling tree". I set both up at 30' and shoot my rifle and pistols at them. The 8" targets aren't a problem,requiring a bit of aiming to hit close to the centers, they can easily be hit "anywhere" with some faster shooting. The 6" round targets on the dueling tree at 30' are a challenge for sure so I move them up to 20'.

 

So, in my opinion, 20' to 30' would make for a nice distance and would surely be fun shooting at without too many disappointing misses.

 

Practicing with this size targets is definitely making me a better shot and I enjoy every minute of the time shooting them so I guess I don't really understand why others couldn't have just as much fun even with larger 12" targets.

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

Just curious since size of targets seems to be dividing the "good ole days" and now. What are most of you calling "small" targets and "far away"?

 

I recently bought some steel targets to take out practicing with. There is a set of four 8" round targets swinging from chains held by an 8' rod so they are about a foot apart and there are six 6" targets on a "dueling tree". I set both up at 30' and shoot my rifle and pistols at them. The 8" targets aren't a problem,requiring a bit of aiming to hit close to the centers, they can easily be hit "anywhere" with some faster shooting. The 6" round targets on the dueling tree at 30' are a challenge for sure so I move them up to 20'.

 

So, in my opinion, 20' to 30' would make for a nice distance and would surely be fun shooting at without too many disappointing misses.

 

Practicing with this size targets is definitely making me a better shot and I enjoy every minute of the time shooting them so I guess I don't really understand why others couldn't have just as much fun even with larger 12" targets.

I think you need to go out and shoot some matches at as many clubs as you can...talk to different types of people...with different levels of experience and age...physical differences.

 

Then remember that we have a timer ticking...

 

That's the best way to answer your question. Myself and others can "Tell" ya the answer, but you won't like it and/or not believe it.

 

And I remember the "good old days" of motocross...soooo much better then...no...not really, but it's fun to think so.

 

Phantom

[Deadeye George]

I think you need to go out and shoot some matches at as many clubs as you can...talk to different types of people...with different levels of experience and age...physical differences.

 

Then remember that we have a timer ticking...

 

That's the best way to answer your question. Myself and others can "Tell" ya the answer, but you won't like it and/or not believe it.

 

And I remember the "good old days" of motocross...soooo much better then...no...not really, but it's fun to think so.

 

Phantom

Well, actually I didn't see an answer and my first question was.... "What are most of you calling "small" targets and "far away"?"

 

I've never actually measured them but the targets that the clubs I shoot with around here seem to average about 14" x 20" with the rifle targets being a hair larger but they are really close, the pistol targets probably 15' away. Did most clubs use much smaller targets years ago or were they placed 15 or 20 yards or farther out?

 

Since I'm new to this, I'm just trying to get a feel of what people are talking about when they talk size and distance.

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

Well, actually I didn't see an answer and my first question was.... "What are most of you calling "small" targets and "far away"?"

 

I've never actually measured them but the targets that the clubs I shoot with around here seem to average about 14" x 20" with the rifle targets being a hair larger but they are really close, the pistol targets probably 15' away. Did most clubs use much smaller targets years ago or were they placed 15 or 20 yards or farther out?

 

Since I'm new to this, I'm just trying to get a feel of what people are talking about when they talk size and distance.

Of course I didn't answer your question as I was addressing the rest of your post.

 

Small/Far varies...from the somewhat reasonable 12" at 7-8 yards (pistol) and 15-20 yards (rifle) to the Bat-poop crazy <12" at over 10 yards for the pistol and 25-50 yards for the rifle.

 

And yes, I can hit those targets... but it ain't CAS.

 

Phantom

[Smokin Gator SASS #29736]

Most posters here stick with describing target size and distance as "big and close" or "small and distant". They don't like to define sizes and distances. Phantom mentioned 12" targets, but those are pretty rare.. Even 16" targets at 7-8 yards and 15yards for rifle is considered small and distant or bullseye by most. But it sounds kind of silly to describe 16" targets at those distances as small and far, so the actual measurement isn't usually mentioned. Smoking Gator

[Big Iron Patnode SASS 60632]

There is also the exaggeration on the other end as mentioned earlier 4'×8' at 3-4 yards. I've yet to see a pistol target the size of a piece of plywood. When exaggerations like this are used as arguments, I usually tune them out. I can say I can always find a club to shoot at and enjoy.

[Jack Strong]

This is surely a dead horse topic but here's my take...........I started out about 1988 or so, shooting mostly in southern California but traveling to many out of state events. After a few years shooting bullseye the sheer variety of shooting scenarios in CAS was a major factor in my enthusiasm for the sport.

 

I moved on to other shooting sports in 2001 but after finally leaving California and settling in Arizona I got the itch to shoot the old style guns again. I sought out the local club and began to shoot their monthly match and sampled a couple of other clubs in AZ as well. After being away for over 10 years there was much that was familiar; friendly people having fun together never goes out of style. What was unfamiliar was the way the shooting has changed to the present emphasis on speed with the huge, close targets and the mind-numbing lack of variety. I also was amazed by the frequent procedural complexity of some of the stages.

 

Not being a person who lives in his past I resolved to make peace with the new style and the mentality that embraces it. For awhile it worked and I regularly attended the local match but my enthusiasm began to fade and pretty soon I realized that I had missed 4 or 5 monthly events in a row. As I type this I'm sitting at home after declining once again to take the scenic mountain drive to the local match that is going on at this moment.

 

I remain an enthusiastic gun guy, a pistolero since I was 12 years old, I get plenty of trigger time and the cowboy guns remain my favorites but I reluctantly admit to myself that I'm finished with the CAS game as played here in Arizona.

 

 

[Slowhand Bob, 24229]

Recently forthcoming information is now indicating that perhaps many of us, and more importantly SASS, were listening to a very vocal minority take on what would keep SASS happy and prosperous. It now seems that those who voted with their feet were shrugged off while those of us who did it by WIRE drowned out their silent but very effective protest! I am sure that SASS is now, well perhaps not, looking at the back numbers by year, the ones we never really got access to until the current need for cash and the great membership drop that has occurred in SASS. If the powers that be are doing their research they should already know when their period of great expansion started to turn. When the dollar is of critical importance, listen to the bigger numbers and not the bigger voices. If the paying membership has dropped as radically as what I am reading they might have listened to the wrong voices to long already!