COLORADO JACKSON Posted August 26, 2015 Share Posted August 26, 2015 Just renewed mine online, and was happy to do it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T-Bone SASS #36388 Posted August 26, 2015 Share Posted August 26, 2015 I guess we have grown far away from a couple of friends shooting down at the creek and dressing up to play cowboy... Facts are it take lots of money to run a cowboy club and the only way to make a million dollars in cowboy shooting is to start with two million. The Bar 3 Ranch held the third largest shooting event in SASS for five years and I can tell you there is no money left at the end of the month at any cowboy club. We do it because we love shooting, fellowship and getting to dress up like our hero's of yesteryear. I know it's hard to believe but our small club is and has always been FLAT BROKE,,,,,,$$$$$$. Yes I spend all the money it makes on improvements and we have had several people step up and help with the cost and labor of love to build more stages through the years. I consider this $100.00 fee as a donation to SASS for keeping my clubs name on the website and letting me view the SASS Wire. Now as for the membership increased fees ????? Well that's for another story, after I try this apple Crown. T-Bone Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shynee Graves, SASS #19,614 Posted August 26, 2015 Share Posted August 26, 2015 A word from the little guys! My name is Shynee Graves, club contact for Big Thicket Outlaws. We are a small club of about 6-7 shooters. Our club was started in the early-mid 90's. (I don't remember any requirement for mimimum SASS membership to be a recognized club when I started).We once ran around 30 shooters, but things change, the reasons have been amply aired in these posts. I am not sure of how many of our shooters are actual SASS members--again the reasons vary. I don't think we have 50% SASS members (minimum requirement to be a SASS afiliated club). So according to the new guidlines for SASS club recognition we will cease to exist as a SASS affiliated club as of October, 2015. With the increase in SASS dues/club affiliation charges I don't hold much hope for increase in SASS membership. Perhaps I am being a bit pessimistic (but I doubt it). We may cease as a SASS affiliated club, but we will not cease shooting cowboy. I just wonder how many other small clubs may be sharing a siumular fate. Personally I resent the implications of "Free loaders". If you knew these guys and girls as I do you would be more understanding. Most of our members are over 60. Time marches on! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rye Miles #13621 Posted August 27, 2015 Share Posted August 27, 2015 To have a SASS sanctioned state shoot your club has to take out a $600.00 ad in the virtual chronicle for nothing in return! I know a club that cancelled a state BP shoot because of that. Too much money for nothing! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phantom, SASS #54973 Posted August 27, 2015 Share Posted August 27, 2015 To have a SASS sanctioned state shoot your club has to take out a $600.00 ad in the virtual chronicle for nothing in return! I know a club that cancelled a state BP shoot because of that. Too much money for nothing! You've made this comment on a number of threads, yet when asked what would be a reasonable price, you can't be specific. And you say the club gets NOTHING...you sure 'bout that??? Curious... Phantom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Most Wanted Posted August 27, 2015 Share Posted August 27, 2015 Many folks think this is the case, but......... I have never known of a club making 'thousands' from an annual, sanctioned or otherwise. It is not easy to cover all expenses and come out with a profit for the club. Hard to imagine. I only have knowledge of a couple and thousands are made. You realize if the money generated by the shoot is used to improve the club that is a profit ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Misty Moonshine Posted August 27, 2015 Share Posted August 27, 2015 A word from the little guys! My name is Shynee Graves, club contact for Big Thicket Outlaws. We are a small club of about 6-7 shooters. Our club was started in the early-mid 90's. (I don't remember any requirement for mimimum SASS membership to be a recognized club when I started).We once ran around 30 shooters, but things change, the reasons have been amply aired in these posts. I am not sure of how many of our shooters are actual SASS members--again the reasons vary. I don't think we have 50% SASS members (minimum requirement to be a SASS afiliated club). So according to the new guidlines for SASS club recognition we will cease to exist as a SASS affiliated club as of October, 2015. With the increase in SASS dues/club affiliation charges I don't hold much hope for increase in SASS membership. Perhaps I am being a bit pessimistic (but I doubt it). We may cease as a SASS affiliated club, but we will not cease shooting cowboy. I just wonder how many other small clubs may be sharing a siumular fate. Personally I resent the implications of "Free loaders". If you knew these guys and girls as I do you would be more understanding. Most of our members are over 60. Time marches on! Shynee, please get in touch with Roxy West, Club Administrator; she can help. roxy@sassnet.com Misty Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rye Miles #13621 Posted August 27, 2015 Share Posted August 27, 2015 You've made this comment on a number of threads, yet when asked what would be a reasonable price, you can't be specific. And you say the club gets NOTHING...you sure 'bout that??? Curious... Phantom Yep, I'm sure! You get some brochures and some little pins, (I think) you also get the ad in the CC for $600.00 !!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dogmeat Dad, SASS #48563L Posted August 27, 2015 Share Posted August 27, 2015 Hard to imagine. I only have knowledge of a couple and thousands are made. You realize if the money generated by the shoot is used to improve the club that is a profit ? Not to disagree, but the two I know of (probably two of your couple) are sub-committees of larger organizations where the costs associated with the facilities, insurance, etc., are covered by the membership at large of the organization, not just the Cowboys. If the Cowboys were required to be totally self sustaining, it would be a very different picture because unless the club runs a large annual match, state match, regional, etc, the monthly match income is probably not sufficient. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rye Miles #13621 Posted August 27, 2015 Share Posted August 27, 2015 Not to disagree, but the two I know of (probably two of your couple) are sub-committees of larger organizations where the costs associated with the facilities, insurance, etc., are covered by the membership at large of the organization, not just the Cowboys. If the Cowboys were required to be totally self sustaining, it would be a very different picture because unless the club runs a large annual match, state match, regional, etc, the monthly match income is probably not sufficient. We at the Firelands Peacemakers are totally self sufficient. We have no state or above matches, we give our host club (Rochester Gun Club who owns the property) a good hunk of money at the end of the year. EVERYTHING is paid by our monthly matches. SASS does not contribute a dime! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blue Wolf , SASS# 29424L Posted August 27, 2015 Share Posted August 27, 2015 I don't agree with lowering the club affiliation fee. If a club can't afford the fee then what are they going to be able to contribute to SASS? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dogmeat Dad, SASS #48563L Posted August 27, 2015 Share Posted August 27, 2015 We at the Firelands Peacemakers are totally self sufficient. We have no state or above matches, we give our host club (Rochester Gun Club who owns the property) a good hunk of money at the end of the year. EVERYTHING is paid by our monthly matches. SASS does not contribute a dime! That is fantastic! You must have a very dedicated group of attendees every month. For what it's worth, SASS doesn't contribute financially to the two clubs I was referring to either, although they do provide buckles for the overall State, Regional, Divisional, winners. What the larger matches do provide, is the opportunity for a larger attendance, and an opportunity, if run appropriately, to generate additional income. That additional income is for many clubs, is what pushes them from the red to the black. For the two clubs I was referring to, they submit ALL of their funds to the two host entities and in return, the host entities provide them with an operating budget for purchases of targets, props, etc. At the end of the day, I suspect it is not much different than your situation with the exception that you are able to do it with just the monthly matches. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Most Wanted Posted August 27, 2015 Share Posted August 27, 2015 Not to disagree, but the two I know of (probably two of your couple) are sub-committees of larger organizations where the costs associated with the facilities, insurance, etc., are covered by the membership at large of the organization, not just the Cowboys. If the Cowboys were required to be totally self sustaining, it would be a very different picture because unless the club runs a large annual match, state match, regional, etc, the monthly match income is probably not sufficient. I'm specifically talking about the cost of the shoot versus the money brought in by anybody paying for any reason that weekend. Not the cost to run a club for a year. As I pointed out with most businesses money put into it (the club ) is profit. Did I say a SASS sanctioned shoot could support a clubs yearly needs ? No. Do they serve as a fund raiser ? Yes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dogmeat Dad, SASS #48563L Posted August 27, 2015 Share Posted August 27, 2015 I'm specifically talking about the cost of the shoot versus the money brought in by anybody paying for any reason that weekend. Not the cost to run a club for a year. And in that case, we are in agreement, the shoot has the potential to generate significant income, assuming it is run properly. As I pointed out with most businesses money (from the revenues generated) put into it (the club ) is profit. With the above edit, which I will assume was implied, again we are in agreement Did I say a SASS sanctioned shoot could support a clubs yearly needs ? No. Do they serve as a fund raiser ? Yes. I apparently missed that part from Johnny Morris' original post where he was referring to only the Texas State Shoot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Most Wanted Posted August 27, 2015 Share Posted August 27, 2015 I'm specifically talking about the cost of the shoot versus the money brought in by anybody paying for any reason that weekend. Not the cost to run a club for a year. And in that case, we are in agreement, the shoot has the potential to generate significant income, assuming it is run properly. As I pointed out with most businesses money (from the revenues generated) put into it (the club ) is profit. With the above edit, which I will assume was implied, again we are in agreement Did I say a SASS sanctioned shoot could support a clubs yearly needs ? No. Do they serve as a fund raiser ? Yes. I apparently missed that part from Johnny Morris' original post where he was referring to only the Texas State Shoot. Shame all of this didn't hit the fan last week. We'd still be at Damascus figuring out how to save the world. See you soon friend. MW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
COLORADO JACKSON Posted August 27, 2015 Share Posted August 27, 2015 Yep, I'm sure! You get some brochures and some little pins, (I think) you also get the ad in the CC for $600.00 !!! Who pays for the gold and silver buckles that are given to the top man and woman at a state match, aren't these included in those funds? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rye Miles #13621 Posted August 28, 2015 Share Posted August 28, 2015 Who pays for the gold and silver buckles that are given to the top man and woman at a state match, aren't these included in those funds? Good question, I really don't know! I think the club does, anyone know for sure??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Santa Fe River Stan,36999L Posted August 28, 2015 Share Posted August 28, 2015 Who pays for the gold and silver buckles that are given to the top man and woman at a state match, aren't these included in those funds?SASS does not charge the club for the buckles. Stan who thinks $600 for an ad in a publication is pretty cheap. I've paid more for publications with less readership. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arcadia Outlaw, SASS 71385 Posted August 28, 2015 Share Posted August 28, 2015 SASS does not charge the club for the buckles. Stan who thinks $600 for an ad in a publication is pretty cheap. I've paid more for publications with less readership. What publication ? The Chronicle ? Have n't seen one in a while Never looked at the electronic version AO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
COLORADO JACKSON Posted August 28, 2015 Share Posted August 28, 2015 SASS does not charge the club for the buckles. Stan who thinks $600 for an ad in a publication is pretty cheap. I've paid more for publications with less readership. I think it is a small price to pay for the years of infrastructure they have worked on and put in place for us to be able to play the game we love...well at least most of us love, seems there are some that will never be happy unless everything they deem unworthy is free. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frontier Lone Rider Posted August 28, 2015 Share Posted August 28, 2015 Good question, I really don't know! I think the club does, anyone know for sure??? When I won the Long Range Rifle at a State Match, I had to send SASS $100 for a buckle? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arcadia Outlaw, SASS 71385 Posted August 28, 2015 Share Posted August 28, 2015 I love cowboy action shooting , been doing it a long time, been a Match Director for quite a while now as well ,been helping set up that match basically since i started , we host a annual shoot with usually about 180 shooters and our monthlies bring 45 to 80 shooters depending on time of year and weather forecasts. Also we host a multi club shoot that all proceeds are donated to 4h club for shooting sports. All these discussions probably aren't going to change much except I do see SASS changed membership fees for kids which was great ! I'm going to rejoin sass cause I like going to our state shoot and regional and some other state shoots. And our club will probably just pay the $100 because it's easy thing to do. I guess I'm aggravated or conflicted because SASS put itself in this position financially and the way they marketed the sport for years and / or lack of marketing I don't want to see SASS fail for sure I love cowboy action shooting, but on the other hand with membership dues I think are over priced especially without Chronicle, which wasn't great but I liked flipping thru it. And as far as affiliation fees go I think the local clubs do more for SASS then SASS does for the clubs , basically no local club why would you join SASS, but as someone involved directly in running matches all the volunteer time ( lots ) and money spent to put on monthly matches and the annuals ( a lot of work mostly behind the scenes Stuff ) , lots of stuff , all volunteer and SASS gets it's membership money from VOLUNTEER Work at the local level ,but because of I'm guessing bad financial decisions they have to now charge the clubs and raise rates for members. Most Wanted mentioned in one thread how folks who were not members and shooting cas were like folks still living at home on their parents dime, where I see these raise in rates as your living at home paying rent to your parents and they squandered it and want more, but I guess since their your parents we will give it to them, Very frustrating love the sport the friendships but aggravated with this stuff. AO PS I hope SASS survives ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ranger Clayton Conagher #43872 Posted August 28, 2015 Share Posted August 28, 2015 A word from the little guys! My name is Shynee Graves, club contact for Big Thicket Outlaws. We are a small club of about 6-7 shooters. Our club was started in the early-mid 90's. (I don't remember any requirement for mimimum SASS membership to be a recognized club when I started).We once ran around 30 shooters, but things change, the reasons have been amply aired in these posts. I am not sure of how many of our shooters are actual SASS members--again the reasons vary. I don't think we have 50% SASS members (minimum requirement to be a SASS afiliated club). So according to the new guidlines for SASS club recognition we will cease to exist as a SASS affiliated club as of October, 2015. With the increase in SASS dues/club affiliation charges I don't hold much hope for increase in SASS membership. Perhaps I am being a bit pessimistic (but I doubt it). We may cease as a SASS affiliated club, but we will not cease shooting cowboy. I just wonder how many other small clubs may be sharing a siumular fate. Personally I resent the implications of "Free loaders". If you knew these guys and girls as I do you would be more understanding. Most of our members are over 60. Time marches on! This is what we are looking at here in central and northern NY. I am the leader of our local club and I am presently in an email discussion with five other club leaders and TG's about this issue. Like the cowboy I quoted above all of our clubs have about 10-12 members. If it wasn't for us traveling to each others clubs to shoot we would never survive. At my club, if I get 20 shooters to show up for a monthly shoot, I consider that to be a great day but it's usually averages about 15. I fear that the people who thought this out were looking at your bigger clubs out west and not small timers up north. One man said "$8 a month", no it's $20 a month for us. In a good year we get in six monthly matches but usually it's five because of the weather. We had to cancel our April match this year because winter would not give up just yet. Our annual budget is approximately $900 a year, THAT'S IT! We do not charge dues, just a fee to shoot. Some of the other clubs around me have even smaller budgets. This $100 fee for some mystery packet and a framed certificate is not sitting well up here. Yes you provide a governing body with rules and yes we get to see our club name contact info on your web page. But as far as I'm concerned that's it. That is all you have done for us since we formed 9 years ago. If our clubs decide to drop our affiliation, that is all we stand to lose. We can still keep shooting every month and continue the way we always do. The only difference will be that we won't have a framed certificate on our wall and our contact info on your web page. Asking us to give up 10% of our total budget will not fly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuckaroo #13080 Regulator Posted August 28, 2015 Share Posted August 28, 2015 Just to name a few, SASS does not charge the clubs for State - Regional - Divisional - National buckles, gift certificates for state shoots and above, Regulator badges, gets a discount for match advertising or match listings on the web and Chronicle. They have a program where clubs can get a rebate for signing up new members. No one has taken advantage of that. Our club signs up new members but decided to not take the bonus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ranger Clayton Conagher #43872 Posted August 28, 2015 Share Posted August 28, 2015 Just to name a few, SASS does not charge the clubs for State - Regional - Divisional - National buckles, gift certificates for state shoots and above, And I should be jumping for joy for this? So what you are saying is that those of us who don't participate in State-Regional-Divisional & National matches have to pay for those prizes? They should charge for them. Again the argument so many are saying, nothing for the local club. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rolan Kraps, SASS # 24084 Life Posted August 28, 2015 Share Posted August 28, 2015 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cypress Sun Posted August 28, 2015 Share Posted August 28, 2015 I love cowboy action shooting , been doing it a long time, been a Match Director for quite a while now as well ,been helping set up that match basically since i started , we host a annual shoot with usually about 180 shooters and our monthlies bring 45 to 80 shooters depending on time of year and weather forecasts. Also we host a multi club shoot that all proceeds are donated to 4h club for shooting sports. All these discussions probably aren't going to change much except I do see SASS changed membership fees for kids which was great ! I'm going to rejoin sass cause I like going to our state shoot and regional and some other state shoots. And our club will probably just pay the $100 because it's easy thing to do. I guess I'm aggravated or conflicted because SASS put itself in this position financially and the way they marketed the sport for years and / or lack of marketing I don't want to see SASS fail for sure I love cowboy action shooting, but on the other hand with membership dues I think are over priced especially without Chronicle, which wasn't great but I liked flipping thru it. And as far as affiliation fees go I think the local clubs do more for SASS then SASS does for the clubs , basically no local club why would you join SASS, but as someone involved directly in running matches all the volunteer time ( lots ) and money spent to put on monthly matches and the annuals ( a lot of work mostly behind the scenes Stuff ) , lots of stuff , all volunteer and SASS gets it's membership money from VOLUNTEER Work at the local level ,but because of I'm guessing bad financial decisions they have to now charge the clubs and raise rates for members. Most Wanted mentioned in one thread how folks who were not members and shooting cas were like folks still living at home on their parents dime, where I see these raise in rates as your living at home paying rent to your parents and they squandered it and want more, but I guess since their your parents we will give it to them, Very frustrating love the sport the friendships but aggravated with this stuff. AO PS I hope SASS survives ! Absolutely the most honest, from the heart response I've seen on any of these threads...........Thanks AO CS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cheyenne Culpepper 32827 Posted August 29, 2015 Share Posted August 29, 2015 Absolutely the most honest, from the heart response I've seen on any of these threads...........Thanks AO CS +10000000000000000 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Palo Verde, SASS # 56522 Posted August 29, 2015 Share Posted August 29, 2015 I love cowboy action shooting , been doing it a long time, been a Match Director for quite a while now as well ,been helping set up that match basically since i started , we host a annual shoot with usually about 180 shooters and our monthlies bring 45 to 80 shooters depending on time of year and weather forecasts. Also we host a multi club shoot that all proceeds are donated to 4h club for shooting sports. All these discussions probably aren't going to change much except I do see SASS changed membership fees for kids which was great ! I'm going to rejoin sass cause I like going to our state shoot and regional and some other state shoots. And our club will probably just pay the $100 because it's easy thing to do. I guess I'm aggravated or conflicted because SASS put itself in this position financially and the way they marketed the sport for years and / or lack of marketing I don't want to see SASS fail for sure I love cowboy action shooting, but on the other hand with membership dues I think are over priced especially without Chronicle, which wasn't great but I liked flipping thru it. And as far as affiliation fees go I think the local clubs do more for SASS then SASS does for the clubs , basically no local club why would you join SASS, but as someone involved directly in running matches all the volunteer time ( lots ) and money spent to put on monthly matches and the annuals ( a lot of work mostly behind the scenes Stuff ) , lots of stuff , all volunteer and SASS gets it's membership money from VOLUNTEER Work at the local level ,but because of I'm guessing bad financial decisions they have to now charge the clubs and raise rates for members. Most Wanted mentioned in one thread how folks who were not members and shooting cas were like folks still living at home on their parents dime, where I see these raise in rates as your living at home paying rent to your parents and they squandered it and want more, but I guess since their your parents we will give it to them, Very frustrating love the sport the friendships but aggravated with this stuff. AO PS I hope SASS survives ! All good, but you must remember that SASS finances are unlike that of any local club that is ran by volunteers. The SASS office and Wild Bunch are paid salaries -- which I'm sure they all earn. They also have real estate in New Mexico to (probably) make payments on, maintain, and defend legally which most local clubs do not. This probably adds up to a pretty good sized monthly "nut" to crack and they are looking for ways to "endeavor to persevere". By one way or another, their only source of income is the membership. Of course, they could reduce overhead by eliminating the real estate in New Mexico (and may have reduced overhead in other ways), but they have decided that is not an option of choice and, therefore, they seek to increase revenue in order to "persevere". It would seem that this real estate must be a large financial drain that local volunteer clubs do not have -- but they have access to info that I do not and it would take huge intestinal fortitude, at this point, to say: "we made a big mistake". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucky Vaquero Posted August 29, 2015 Share Posted August 29, 2015 Ranger Clayton Conagher and Shynee Graves both stated the case perfectly. There's absolutely nothing preventing small local clubs from continuing to run monthly shoots as they always have except they'll now do so without SASS approved affiliation. Most shooters won't notice anything different. I can also envision local clubs suggesting that members forego SASS membership and redirect the $65 @ year renewal fee towards their local clubs instead. While I'm not condoning that, the return on the investment would be significantly greater than what SASS gives a typical shooter for $65. If your club isn't SASS affiliated they can let you use any alias you want. Everybody can be Duece Stevens or Lead Ringer if they want to. The only reason at this point for any individual to join SASS or any club to be SASS affiliated is if they want to attend or host a regional or national match. That eliminates the overwhelming majority of individual members and local clubs. No business has ever increased sales/revenue by raising prices on a product that was already not selling well. If what you're selling isn't profitable and sales are declining you have to reinvent your product. Simply raising the cost of your product will exacerbate the problem, not fix it. It defies logic to expect increasing SASS membership fees or club affiliation fees will be any different. I'm just a dumb redneck and even I know that. SASS needs to understand that they need memberships to survive. OTOH, cowboy action shooting could conceivably continue on just fine at the local level with or without SASS. Remember, that's how the whole thing started. A bunch of local boys and girls that just wanted to dress up and play cowboy with real guns. They weren't thinking about national championships and world titles. It was just a bunch of friends having fun. Local shoots are primarily still just that and for most of us that's all we're looking for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gold Canyon Kid #43974 Posted August 30, 2015 Share Posted August 30, 2015 Local clubs have no real advantage of being SASS affiliated. The only real thing I can think of is not having a TG, but a vast number that do have a TG never vote anyway. Most clubs think the TG system is broken anyway. If clubs start dropping their affiliation their TG will no longer have access to the latest rule changes so when members go to a major state and above shoot they might be in for a surprise. Others that are tired of rule changes anyway, might see that as a plus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Possum Skinner, SASS#60697 Posted August 30, 2015 Share Posted August 30, 2015 It's not going to be difficult for my local club to absorb this added cost and I'm sure we'll pay it. It was suggested to me to simply look at it as advertising costs and that;'s probably how we'll pitch it to our club. I truly love CAS and SASS and have always been a staunch supporter of both. However, while I understand the benefits clubs get from being SASS affiliated, I'm not sure this isn't like cutting steaks off of your plow mules flank. Local clubs do ALL of the work to build their range, targets and props. Local clubs/shooters do the vast majority of recruiting new shooters. Local clubs do ALL the work of putting on their annual matches. It's the blood and sweat of local club volunteers who paint targets and mow and write scenarios and all the other 10,000 things it takes to run a match . Without local clubs there would be no SASS. I believe, in the long run, the club affiliation fee is going to equal a net loss to SASS as lots of small clubs (and probably some big ones) are not going to be able or willing to pay this fee and so will be removed from the places to shoot listing. I foresee the following scenario: a potential new shooter looks for a club to participate at, in his area. He does not one because they did not pay the fee, so he says, "Oh well..." and decides to forget about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blastmaster Posted August 30, 2015 Share Posted August 30, 2015 Just throw in another $20 for club affiliation. Now we are up to $20+$20,,, not a problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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