Most Wanted Posted August 25, 2015 Share Posted August 25, 2015 If you walk into the NRA museum and look around does that make you a member ? Is this really a WTC as to how to identify a member. From motorcycling to hunting and other ventures I am a member of several clubs and each has nothing to do with the other . But what they do have in common is I PAY a membership fee and get a card . Maybe that info will help . Good luck MW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Creeker, SASS #43022 Posted August 25, 2015 Share Posted August 25, 2015 "Rising costs" and "Everyone else does it" seems to be the catch all answer anytime that SASS decides they desire a little more income. Remember when they decided State and above matches should pay them a tribute for every shooter? Oh, it's not that much per shooter - a mere pittance. And everyone else does it. Now it is pay to affiliate your club. Oh, it's not that much per shooter - a mere pittance. And everyone else does it. There are 10 to 20 thousand folks sending in $35 every year. You know our "membership" So there's about $35,000 Seems that that should cover the cost of the SASS wire. Because honestly - tell me "exactly" what else of value we receive from SASS that is not created off the backs of volunteers? 5000 to 7000 individuals that attend State or above level shoots every year (40 something state level championships, Regionals, Nationals, and Worlds. Oh and don't forget the Divisionals as well) some shooters attend more than one, but they pay the SASS tribute at every shoot. At $10 per shooter - there's another $50,000 to $70,000 annually. Now those individuals are not enough and SASS wants to tax the groups that attracted and serves those members. 50 States at an average of 5 - 8 clubs per state. Multiplied by $50 to $100 Another $25,000 to $40,000 a year into the coffers of SASS. Again, SASS collects this money off the backs of volunteer workers and local clubs. We build the matches (to pay SASS) We advertise to attract new shooters (who then join SASS) And I am failing to see what these fees are providing for my local shooters and for my local club. Lets just say our State shoot brings in 150 shooters. $150 to SASS. And we pay $100 to continue to be affiliated. By my math, we are providing $250 a year to SASS. Unless you think that we should simply "pay for the privilege" of SASS. I don't think "Rising costs and everyone else is doing it" is acceptable. We should be made to understand why this money is required - where it is going and how it will benefit SASS, our clubs or our members. I'm starting to feel a bit like the proverbial frog in the water as the heat is slowly being turned up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Most Wanted Posted August 25, 2015 Share Posted August 25, 2015 Another way to look at it and this may not apply to some . How much money has your club raised because it host a SASS annual shoot ? Thousands a year ? Would you have as many traveling shooters if they didn't know what rules you were playing by ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rye Miles #13621 Posted August 25, 2015 Share Posted August 25, 2015 $100.00 for a club membership isn't bad, I'm more concerned about the raise in individual membership from 45-65!!! Outrageous! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gold Canyon Kid #43974 Posted August 25, 2015 Share Posted August 25, 2015 I have never been to a monthly match where ANYONE in charge ever encouraged SASS membership or even showed anyone how to become a SASS member. This could change now. Of course the number of SASS affiliated clubs might decrease if the admin effort to determine SASS members gets too hard. In many clubs, only those shooters shooting in annual or above matches requiring membership join SASS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tracker Mike SASS #38824 Posted August 25, 2015 Share Posted August 25, 2015 I am pretty sure that most of the smaller clubs in our area have no formal club membership process. Show up at the monthly matches, pay your fee and shoot. There are no membership lists maintained to submit so I would suspect most of those clubs will ignore and continue doing what they do - just a bit more isolated from the organization. Adding administrative activities to clubs with minimal volunteer help usually does not go very far. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rolan Kraps, SASS # 24084 Life Posted August 25, 2015 Share Posted August 25, 2015 You sound like a kid that's been living with his parents for 35 years for free and then the parents had the nerve to ask for a little grocery money. There is and always will be a cost for doing business. I would think Most clubs would look at this cup as half full for all the years there was no cost. Well Said, Most Wanted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyrel Cody Posted August 25, 2015 Share Posted August 25, 2015 $100.00 for a club membership isn't bad, I'm more concerned about the raise in individual membership from 45-65!!! Outrageous! +1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gold Canyon Kid #43974 Posted August 25, 2015 Share Posted August 25, 2015 Usually when fees increase, there is a rationale for the increases. Do we have the rationale tohelp sell the increases to shooters to encourage them to pay? A whike back we were told that SASS was headed to becoming a non profit organization. What happened to that plan? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lorelei Longshot, SASS #44256 Life Posted August 25, 2015 Share Posted August 25, 2015 It isn't that confusing to me, but then I'm an old simpleton so maybe I'm missing something here. The clubs I belong to have membership dues and charge members less to shoot than non-members. Once you join the club and pay the yearly (or Lifetime) dues, you are a member and pay less for each monthly shoot in which you participate. At the annual club shoots, the charge to shoot is the same for club members as non-members, usually much more costly because of the expenses for trophies, meals, give-aways, etc. Visitors can pay non-member fees and shoot as often or as infrequently as they want at the regular monthly matches. They might be visitors from out of state or distant cities or new to cowboy shooting trying to figure out whether this is something they want to continue. (How could they decide NOT to continue?) I guess the question would be "Do you count the non-club members that shoot at your annual club match as non-members which could then change the percentage of SASS members unless the shoot is SASS sanctioned where everyone is required to be a SASS member?" At the TSRA (Texas State Rifle Association) sponsored matches, TSRA membership is required. I joined TSRA when I became involved in CAS and wanted to shoot at a TSRA sponsored match. My husband had been a TSRA member for several years already. I became a life TSRA member soon after initially joining in order to participate in that TSRA sponsored match. We belong to more than one club even though we don't shoot at all of them on a regular basis. We are limited by more than just the cost of travel to and from monthly matches as well as the cost of ammo, lodging, meals, and monthly match fees. We have found that we can't handle the heat as well as we did over 10 years ago because of age and medications we take now. We don't like being so cold that we worry about safe gun handling. (Here in Texas it is more about the heat than the cold, but there are a few times that we have 30 degree weather with highs only in the 40s.) We still join some clubs even though we don't shoot there on a regular basis just to show our support for what we consider to be GREAT SASS shooting clubs. I wish we could afford to join more clubs, and shoot more often, but being retired and on a fixed income does present some limitations. Getting old presents even more limitations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Iron Buster Posted August 25, 2015 Share Posted August 25, 2015 At our club we have no club membership requirement. If I look at past scores most all are SASS members. So how do I declare? All of our officers for our little club are SASS members, do I just list them for the record? I'm confused!!! Big Iron Buster Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Missouri Marshal SASS #50682 Posted August 25, 2015 Share Posted August 25, 2015 So how is thi Club Affiliation renewal going to work. We have about 48 members, they all have SASS numbers but I don't know if their SASS memberships are current. Do we submit the Affiliation renewal form with a list of our members and then if there are some that have let their SASS membership expire, SASS will bill us for the appropriate affiliation fee? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C0ckr0ach, SASS #26100 Posted August 25, 2015 Share Posted August 25, 2015 Seems to me that Misty is putting SASS on a path to sustainability as an institution. Good ! However, a Shooter who shoots infrequently would likely be better off (money wise) to pay a local Club's guest fee and not belong to SASS or the local Club. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tracker Mike SASS #38824 Posted August 25, 2015 Share Posted August 25, 2015 Seems to me that Misty is putting SASS on a path to sustainability as an institution. Good ! However, a Shooter who shoots infrequently would likely be better off (money wise) to pay a local Club's guest fee and not belong to SASS or the local Club. This is probably one of the major impacts of the events that are unfolding..... less SASS and local club members. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
August West, SASS #45079 Posted August 25, 2015 Share Posted August 25, 2015 A way to think about this is that Affiliated Clubs are being asked to encourage their members to be affiliated with SASS. That has always seemed like the proper thing to do in the interest of supporting the Sport and helping it to grow. Shooters who are affiliated with SASS (i.e. are members) should get a reduced membership fee with their local club as compared to non-members. So, non-members pay the cost of Club Affiliation when warranted. That has always seemed like the right thing to do for the Club, the Members, and for the Sport. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Palo Verde, SASS # 56522 Posted August 25, 2015 Share Posted August 25, 2015 Hi Everyone, SASS® is working diligently through the process of transitioning the organization into a Non-profit corporation, and every aspect of the organization has been reviewed in great detail to ensure that we are poised for optimum success as the governing and sanctioning body for the sport of Cowboy Action Shooting™ well into the future. As mentioned in the letter that went out to all clubs, we are happy to answer any questions you may have. Misty Moonshine Just for clarification, I understood that SASS converted to a "not for profit" organization rather than a "non-profit" organization -- If previous information provided by SASS regarding this was true, and considering that there is a considerable difference between "not for profit" and "non-profit", then perhaps the two terms should not be used interchangeably .. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Houston CAS Posted August 25, 2015 Share Posted August 25, 2015 Seems to me that Misty is putting SASS on a path to sustainability as an institution. Good ! However, a Shooter who shoots infrequently would likely be better off (money wise) to pay a local Club's guest fee and not belong to SASS or the local Club. And that's the danger of what SASS is doing. They raised membership fees $20 a year while at the same time penalizing clubs that aren't 100% membership SASS. Some clubs may take take the tactic of requiring SASS membership, so it'll end up being better for infrequent shooters to not become a club member. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wyatt Posted August 25, 2015 Share Posted August 25, 2015 A 'smart' club 'boss' would only show SASS members on the roster that SASS will see. What's the lowest the fee(tax)goes to? OLG Hey OLG............are you ever gonna join SASS again? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Original Lumpy Gritz Posted August 25, 2015 Share Posted August 25, 2015 Hey OLG............are you ever gonna join SASS again? WHY, is that any of YOUR concern? OLG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Coyote, SASS #63736 Posted August 25, 2015 Share Posted August 25, 2015 And that's the danger of what SASS is doing. They raised membership fees $20 a year while at the same time penalizing clubs that aren't 100% membership SASS. Some clubs may take take the tactic of requiring SASS membership, so it'll end up being better for infrequent shooters to not become a club member.Just for giggles, let's play which came 1st, Chicken (membership fee increase) or the egg (club affiliation fee)? Imagine the discussion on raising the "chicken" and progressing to the potential for current members, for whatever reason, not renewing. The "egg" may cause two things to happen at the local club level. It either encourages the clubs to require SASS membership to be a club member, or it may encourage the clubs to charge additional shooters fees for non-members & send the 1st $100 collected from non-member fees to SASS. Either way, some revenue gets to SASS, although most certainly not as much if even 3 members choose not to renew at $65. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wyatt Posted August 25, 2015 Share Posted August 25, 2015 WHY, is that any of YOUR concern? OLG Just one paying members observation of inappropriate comments made by a 'Guest' involving money and finances Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Most Wanted Posted August 25, 2015 Share Posted August 25, 2015 Just one paying members observation of inappropriate comments made by a 'Guest' involving money and finances Kinda like those guys that jump on from time to time and say " that's why I quit ". The wire should be for members only. So at least the opinions being expressed are valid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Original Lumpy Gritz Posted August 25, 2015 Share Posted August 25, 2015 Just one paying members observation of inappropriate comments made by a 'Guest' involving money and finances Feel free to ignore then. Carry on, OLG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gold Canyon Kid #43974 Posted August 25, 2015 Share Posted August 25, 2015 So for a club that monthly shooter attendancess that varies from 25 to 140 depending on time of yesr and weather, and it has club memberships to decrease shooters monthly fees if shooters want to join. Non memers pay a bit more to shoot. Further suppose that only 30 shooters are club members. Does a club avoid paying the affiliation fee if the 30 club members belong to SASS, regardless of how many folks show up to shoot? Next club has no club memberships and has the same range of number of shooters that show up, ie 25 to 140. How many SASS memberships are needed to avoid rhe 100% affiliation fee? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lorelei Longshot, SASS #44256 Life Posted August 25, 2015 Share Posted August 25, 2015 Gold Canyon Kid- I may have it wrong, but from what I've read so far a club reports the number of SASS members that belong to or pay dues to that club. Visitors that are non-members are not reported as they aren't dues paying members. Members typically fill out a form with information including names, alias, SASS number, who to contact in case of emergency, and release of liability along with amount paid for membership, along with any other information the club requires like email address, etc. Non-members probably sign a release of liability form, but don't pay dues or provide all the detailed information needed for club membership. A club that has only 5 members that all belong to SASS is 100% SASS and pays nothing even if they have 15 to 50 visitors show up at a monthly match. Someone correct me if my thinking is off base. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JudgeBagodonuts Posted August 25, 2015 Share Posted August 25, 2015 I can see it now... Club shoot in late September. The very loosely organized "club" (with a $20 yearly membership fee to get a $5 discount on the guest shoot fee) has the MD stand up and say "Now, we need to fill out this paperwork with SASS. Who here has a current membership?" and five people hold up their hands. He writes down those names and the other ten "members" who aren't SASS members aren't listed. Club continues to be SASS affiliated, and no fee. If the rules were played by, and the other ten "members" are written down, the yearly membership fee would have to go up $5 for everyone to cover the $75 cost for having only some members being SASS members. Not every club has big membership rolls, or owns their own range. The only thing this fee does is encourage people to shade the truth as to who are members and who are not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lorelei Longshot, SASS #44256 Life Posted August 25, 2015 Share Posted August 25, 2015 JudgeBagodonuts See post #11 by Misty Moonshine. Not really the cowboy way to not be honest in reporting membership. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wyatt Posted August 25, 2015 Share Posted August 25, 2015 · Hidden by Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217, August 25, 2015 - Has nothing to do with the topic. Insult only. Hidden by Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217, August 25, 2015 - Has nothing to do with the topic. Insult only. Feel free to ignore then. Carry on, OLG Feel free to pay for services rendered then Mooch on Link to comment
Blackey Cole Posted August 26, 2015 Share Posted August 26, 2015 I have no horse in this race or dog in this fight as they say. But if you are a sass club and you have 8 members and all 8 are sass members I do believe there is still no charge if every member is also a sass member. Correct me if I am wrong. But. I ve checked in to several gun clubs and to be a member they required you to be a NRA member in good standing, why can't your sass club require your club members to be sass members? Then you have no affiliate fees. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arcadia Outlaw, SASS 71385 Posted August 26, 2015 Share Posted August 26, 2015 "Rising costs" and "Everyone else does it" seems to be the catch all answer anytime that SASS decides they desire a little more income. Remember when they decided State and above matches should pay them a tribute for every shooter? Oh, it's not that much per shooter - a mere pittance. And everyone else does it. Now it is pay to affiliate your club. Oh, it's not that much per shooter - a mere pittance. And everyone else does it. There are 10 to 20 thousand folks sending in $35 every year. You know our "membership" So there's about $35,000 Seems that that should cover the cost of the SASS wire. Because honestly - tell me "exactly" what else of value we receive from SASS that is not created off the backs of volunteers? 5000 to 7000 individuals that attend State or above level shoots every year (40 something state level championships, Regionals, Nationals, and Worlds. Oh and don't forget the Divisionals as well) some shooters attend more than one, but they pay the SASS tribute at every shoot. At $10 per shooter - there's another $50,000 to $70,000 annually. Now those individuals are not enough and SASS wants to tax the groups that attracted and serves those members. 50 States at an average of 5 - 8 clubs per state. Multiplied by $50 to $100 Another $25,000 to $40,000 a year into the coffers of SASS. Again, SASS collects this money off the backs of volunteer workers and local clubs. We build the matches (to pay SASS) We advertise to attract new shooters (who then join SASS) And I am failing to see what these fees are providing for my local shooters and for my local club. Lets just say our State shoot brings in 150 shooters. $150 to SASS. And we pay $100 to continue to be affiliated. By my math, we are providing $250 a year to SASS. Unless you think that we should simply "pay for the privilege" of SASS. I don't think "Rising costs and everyone else is doing it" is acceptable. We should be made to understand why this money is required - where it is going and how it will benefit SASS, our clubs or our members. I'm starting to feel a bit like the proverbial frog in the water as the heat is slowly being turned up. I get what your saying, SASS had a great plan, wish I could start a business that folks volunteer to help build then charge them too, without the local clubs there would be no SASS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Possum Skinner, SASS#60697 Posted August 26, 2015 Share Posted August 26, 2015 I get what your saying, SASS had a great plan, wish I could start a business that folks volunteer to help build then charge them too, without the local clubs there would be no SASS Agree 100%! Believe me when I say I truly love CAS and greatly appreciate SASS for creating and growing it as a sport/hobby, but I could easily make the argument that SASS should be paying local clubs for what we do, not the other way around. And I couldn't care less what other organizations do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rio Brazos Kid Posted August 26, 2015 Share Posted August 26, 2015 Another thing, I don't see any Club shooting themselves in the foot, by requiring SASS membership in order to belong. They would lose far more money doing this, than simply paying the $100, in most cases. Shooters that only shot 4 to 6 matches a year, simply would not join those clubs. Losing the dues from these shooters would wind up costing the Club money. The shooters themselves would gain the $65 SASS fee, and the Club membership fee by not belonging. RBK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bramble Mountain Buzzard Posted August 26, 2015 Share Posted August 26, 2015 There are smaller clubs out there that struggle with finances. Insurance, target costs, land rental, etc. Basically except for the annual match, they lose money. Now, between the added cost of membership to individuals and the affiliation fee to clubs, I fear that the burden will be to much to bear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bad Hand Posted August 26, 2015 Share Posted August 26, 2015 Creeker, I think you need to refigure your math, 35x10000=350,000 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dalton Masterson, SASS #51139 Posted August 26, 2015 Share Posted August 26, 2015 A good portion of our shooters here in Nebraska are already dwindling, and we have NCOWS and an independent cowboy club to compete with already. I imagine those non-SASS shooters won't join SASS just to drive 2 hours to shoot with us anymore. Also, we don't have a club membership per se, as we are a city owned range and everything we do falls under the supervision of the city. I presume we just need to send a $100 check then? DM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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