Empties in Pistol after test firing

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

Reading this thread and thinking about the rule convinces me that there should be a SDQ any time a shooter shows up at the loading table with brass in a gun, including the first stage of the match/day. I never understood the distinction of arriving at the loading table with uncleared gun(s) if it was the first stage of the match or day.

 

Yep, agreed.

 

Ya know, we really have put ourselves in quite a pickle with the way this rule has evolved and been etched in stone over the years.

 

1 - By making the first stage of day have a special "no penalty" exception - we ignore the unsafe act of bringing guns out of vehicles, over from a warm-up bay, out of RVs or other places when they are still possibly loaded. We say SASS wants to run a cold range, then we cut open a big loophole in the rule that denies we really mean it.

 

2 - By making the penalty apply not when discovered, but always considering that it was "a mistake made on the previous stage's unloading table", we make it hard to record onto paper score sheets that have to be picked up for scoring immediately at big matches. Now someone has to go find the previous-stage scoresheet, and apply a SDQ or MDQ penalty. In electronic scoring systems, the shooter may already have "signed off" on his score for that previous stage. So now you have to go find the "electronic record" and alter it, increasing confusion about the scores, and whether the penalty really got applied.

 

3 - By not always having an official at the loading table, but relying on the shooter himself (or other shooters at the table) to see the "ammo found in gun" problem and honestly report the problem, we leave it open for some pretty obvious self-protection instincts to kick in.

 

Here's the simple solution that works for everything except how to you get to be"pretty sure" that you are getting accurate self-reporting of problems:

Apply the penalty whenever a shooter is found with brass or loaded rounds in a gun at the loading table.

Apply the penalty at the stage where the loading is taking place.

Apply the penalty regardless of where the shooter has been before they got to the loading table, even on first stage of a match.

 

And, if it is found that someone on the last stage of the match blew off the unloading table procedures, there already is a penalty available you can award them with for not following unloading procedures.

 

So much simpler than what we are doing now, and also it will encourage more checking as folks get out of their vehicles, RVs, side matches, etc.

 

With very little downside.

 

Good luck, GJ

[Cowboy Rick, SASS #49739L]

I would assume that, from a safety perspective, the logic is that if you do not know that empty brass in your pistols, then you don't know if live rounds are in your pistols.

 

So. if the SDQ is issued because the shooter has no idea whet is in the chambers of his revolvers, why is the first stage any different from any other.

Da rules is da rules. I would think that some thought was given to this, and the single "pass" would be brain fart from the day before gets a break. After that, you're on the clock until the last stage. Every shooting sport has a loading and unloading procedure and safe gun condition provision.

 

CR

[Shooting Bull]

 

Yep, agreed.

 

Ya know, we really have put ourselves in quite a pickle with the way this rule has evolved and been etched in stone over the years.

 

1 - By making the first stage of day have a special "no penalty" exception - we ignore the unsafe act of bringing guns out of vehicles, over from a warm-up bay, out of RVs or other places when they are still possibly loaded. We say SASS wants to run a cold range, then we cut open a big loophole in the rule that denies we really mean it.

 

2 - By making the penalty apply not when discovered, but always considering that it was "a mistake made on the previous stage's unloading table", we make it hard to record onto paper score sheets that have to be picked up for scoring immediately at big matches. Now someone has to go find the previous-stage scoresheet, and apply a SDQ or MDQ penalty. In electronic scoring systems, the shooter may already have "signed off" on his score for that previous stage. So now you have to go find the "electronic record" and alter it, increasing confusion about the scores, and whether the penalty really got applied.

 

3 - By not always having an official at the loading table, but relying on the shooter himself (or other shooters at the table) to see the "ammo found in gun" problem and honestly report the problem, we leave it open for some pretty obvious self-protection instincts to kick in.

 

Here's the simple solution that works for everything except how to you get to be"pretty sure" that you are getting accurate self-reporting of problems:

Apply the penalty whenever a shooter is found with brass or loaded rounds in a gun at the loading table.

Apply the penalty at the stage where the loading is taking place.

Apply the penalty regardless of where the shooter has been before they got to the loading table, even on first stage of a match.

 

And, if it is found that someone on the last stage of the match blew off the unloading table procedures, there already is a penalty available you can award them with for not following unloading procedures.

 

So much simpler than what we are doing now, and also it will encourage more checking as folks get out of their vehicles, RVs, side matches, etc.

 

With very little downside.

 

Good luck, GJ

 

Sorry, I don't think I'm gonna be able to back you up on this. As it stands now, we penalize the shooter for the previous stage because they didn't follow unloading table procedures and properly unload their guns after shooting that stage. In your scenario, each and every shooter at a match would be required to go to an unloading table before they were even allowed on the range.

[Grizzly Dave]

Shooting Bull, no, just to be responsible, which they should be and ultimately already are, for the condition of their guns. And as such held accountable.

[Shooting Bull]

Shooting Bull, no, just to be responsible, which they should be and ultimately already are, for the condition of their guns. And as such held accountable.

 

Just so I understand what I'm reading, folks want to give a shooter a penalty for showing up at the first loading table of the day with empties in their pistol before a round has even gone down range? Is that what I'm reading? Not giving an opinion one way or the other, just trying to understand exactly what's being proposed here.

[Widder, SASS #59054]

deleted.

 

 

..........Widder

 

[Grizzly Dave]

 

Just so I understand what I'm reading, folks want to give a shooter a penalty for showing up at the first loading table of the day with empties in their pistol before a round has even gone down range? Is that what I'm reading? Not giving an opinion one way or the other, just trying to understand exactly what's being proposed here.

 

Can't speak for others, but yes, I think that would make a lot of sense.

[Hoss]

I'm with Griz on this. I had a hypothetical what's the call on another thread, that asked what if a shooter came to first stage loading table with a loaded gun. General consesnsus (without an official response from PWB) was no call.

 

I think (KNOW!) a shooter has a responsibility to know the conditions of his guns at every minute of the day. If he doesn't he gets penalized. But, the rule as of now is first stage of the day is free. Any subsequent stage earns a SDQ.

 

And I agree with Widder, we can discuss, learn and yes, even change our mind on how a rule is interpreted without being rude or argumentative.

[Shooting Bull]

Still not giving an opinion here, just asking what I think is a relevant question. When do the rules take affect? For instance, I arrive in the parking lot the morning of a match and start loading gear into my cart. As I check my pistols before putting them in their holsters and then into the cart I find some empties, am I to be penalized? Same scenario except it's a few minutes later and I find the empties at the loading table for the first stage. Am I to be penalized? Based on what I've just read, some folks here would give me a penalty for showing up at the loading table with the loaded pistols so I should also get the same penalty if I'd found them at the car, right? If not, what's the difference between the two?

[Riverboat Red, SASS #71733]

 

Just so I understand what I'm reading, folks want to give a shooter a penalty for showing up at the first loading table of the day with empties in their pistol before a round has even gone down range? Is that what I'm reading? Not giving an opinion one way or the other, just trying to understand exactly what's being proposed here.

I'll give an opinion.

I do not agree with inventing a new penalty to punish someone for doing something that is NOT unsafe.

The current penalty is for not adhering to ULT procedures (as determined by having empty brass in a firearm), therefore it cannot be applied at the first stage.

If the range has rules governing empties in a firearm then deal with the offender with a range penalty (warning, sent home, banned for life, whatever). The penalty has nothing to do with the SASS match.

As to the OP's scenario, I don't know. To me it seems like ULT procedure was followed but...I await a definitive answer.

 

RR

[Grizzly Dave]

Well, at the loading table is already on the books.

 

You could look at it like this, not that you'd be giving an opinion or anything...

 

In your car is your property, transferring to your cart is a free zone if you will, a transitional point in time to go from what you alone feel is appropriate (within the law of course) and what the range and or match deems appropriate. at the loading table is range property and subject to match rules.

[Griff]

Widder,

 

I like your post about the non-personal nature of responses so far. The "Like This" button doesn't work, so consider this my "Like"!

 

As for Shooting Bull's question, yes, it appears that in eliminating the 1st stage exemption, the same penalty would be for showing up in your vehicle with a loaded gun. I'd find this problematic. As a concealed carry permit holder, I pretty much have a loaded gun when I arrive. It's seldom one of my match guns... but without saying I have... it's happened. Several times in my LEO job, I left "work" and went to a match straightaway. I'm not about to head out to the range with a vehicle full of guns, lacking the ability to protect my property. Not trying to make a statement on the conditions in my area, I'd be a fool not to keep the ability to protect myself or my property. Car-jackings and the like do occur. The probability is low of my being the victim, but one never knows. So... with the proposed change to the 1st stage exemption, do I stop and unload my guns at the gate to the range, or just where? Prudent practice for any shooter should be to check the guns when they come out of the vehicle and before being put in holsters or in gun cart.

 

The 1st stage exemption is just an artifice to acknowledge that there was no previous stage where the penalty can be applied... What? We go back to the last stage at the last match I shot and apply the penalty? Yesterday, last week at another range, or last month? Hard to give a penalty for not following loading/unloading procedures when you haven't done either one at the first stage.

 

Must be a ticklish question for the ROC to deliberate so long.

[Widder, SASS #59054]

Thanks Griff.

 

I sit here eating supper (sure wish I had some fried Okra) and in my imagination, I can hear the Jeopardy theme music as we all await PWB to give us the answer to the OT.

 

Good evening everyone!

 

 

..........Widder

[Yusta B.]

Still not giving an opinion here, just asking what I think is a relevant question. When do the rules take affect? For instance, I arrive in the parking lot the morning of a match and start loading gear into my cart. As I check my pistols before putting them in their holsters and then into the cart I find some empties, am I to be penalized? Same scenario except it's a few minutes later and I find the empties at the loading table for the first stage. Am I to be penalized? Based on what I've just read, some folks here would give me a penalty for showing up at the loading table with the loaded pistols so I should also get the same penalty if I'd found them at the car, right? If not, what's the difference between the two?

If the rule were to be changed to include the first stage I would think it would not cover the vehicle or parking lot or any other area UNTIL the process of checking and loading at the LT were started. I believe the firing line starts when the first gun is placed on the table. This seems to be the appropriate time for stage rules to go into effect.

[J-BAR #18287]

Do we know for sure that PWB is aware of the question? I've scanned the thread a couple of times and I don't see a post from him.

 

Anyone having private correspondence with PWB or the ROC?

[Widder, SASS #59054]

Howdy J-Bar.

 

I can't prove it but sometimes, I think PWB/ROC watch the threads, gather their wisdom together, and define the best intent of the subject topic.

 

And, there are times I think they decide there isn't a rule which covers the situation and decide it best not to have one at the present time.

 

This is strictly a guess of mine. I don't claim to have ESP or a hotline to anyone on the ROC.

 

Then again, they may all be somewhere involved in a fried Okra eating contest and I wasn't invited.

 

Pass the homemade ice cream made with fresh Jawja peaches and carry on.

 

 

..........Widder

[Grizzly Dave]

NW Regional is going on this weekend, PWB could be out playing, I hope so. This can wait.

[Mack Hacker, #60477]

I would assume that, from a safety perspective, the logic is that if you do not know that empty brass in your pistols, then you don't know if live rounds are in your pistols.

 

So. if the SDQ is issued because the shooter has no idea whet is in the chambers of his revolvers, why is the first stage any different from any other.

Hate to quote myself, but I believe I was somewhat misunderstood. The reason I wrote this was to kind of poke at the wording of the rule that seems to stress the infraction being caused by showing up at the LT rather than failing to complete the required tasks at the previous ULT.

 

It just seems to me that we are not penalizing an infraction, but instead penalizing getting caught.

 

BTW, I received 3 SDQ's in my 11 years of SASS. All 3 were for this issue. I called all 3 of them on myself. The last one was at the 2014 SW Regional when I took the SDQ on the first stage of the match. I now see where I should have listened closer to my RO1 class the day before. I called it after noticing empties in my pistols while unloading used brass at my cart. I see now that technically it was not an SDQ at all.

[Ventura Slim, SASS #35690]

Its the cowboy way to call yourself out. I have not yet done this, but there is still time.

[Key Hay]

NW Regional is going on this weekend, PWB could be out playing, I hope so. This can wait.

I'll bet he is! A bit of a drive for him but well worth the drive to Wenatchee Washington. Wish I was there!

[Grizzly Dave]

I'll bet he is! A bit of a drive for him but well worth the drive to Wenatchee Washington. Wish I was there!

 

Not as far a drive as for the folks from Wyoming...

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

If the rule were to be changed to include the first stage I would think it would not cover the vehicle or parking lot or any other area UNTIL the process of checking and loading at the LT were started. I believe the firing line starts when the first gun is placed on the table. This seems to be the appropriate time for stage rules to go into effect.

"That would be my understanding too." to quote Sgt Mulcahey.

 

The reason it's hard to penalize "leaving rounds in gun" at the unloading table is, it is not discovered there for many situations! And for the example of a practice bay / test bay, there is no unloading table "officially". So, would be MUCH simpler to convert the penalty to being "round found in gun at LT" rather than "an undiscovered failure at the ULT meaning a round was not cleared from gun was then discovered later in the day" when in fact the failure may have been bringing a loaded gun directly in from your cart/car/RV. Current rules don't handle those situations well, as this topic has pointed out very clearly.

 

In other words, when you place your guns on the LOADING table, you are certifying that you know them to be empty and clear. If you then find a round, a penalty ought to apply to get you to think about protecting the safety rules that SASS wants to see upheld at matches. I've shot at lots of ranges that are well managed - and they all want and enforce "A cold range"

 

Good luck, GJ

[Seldom Seen #16162]

Rules are clear - SDQ " .. sucks to be you..." I can't justify changing the call or the rule to make this exception. The rule is there to make sure that there is no ammo, live or fired, in any of the guns that folks are handling away from the line. Once the match starts, the rules apply. The only exception is the first stage of the day.

 

CR

 

Some rules may be clear. Some of the definitions are clear. Some are not.

 

What is not clear and agreed on is the definition of a STAGE and WHEN It is completed.

 

IF we agree a stage begins at the loading table and ends at the unloading table then events that take place between the end of stage and beginning of the next stage do not result in penalty.

 

For example a shooter has shot a stage, complied with ULT rules and is behind the shooting line putting his guns in his cart and his revolver fall out of his holster while he is bent over putting his guns and gear in the cart.

 

If we accept the majority of the opinions here that a stage begins at the loading table at the first course of fire and does not until shooter has shown clear at ULT at the last course of fire (regardless of the number of courses...four, six, eight...) then ALL the rules during the ENTIRE match apply. So the shooter that dropped his gun while putting his guns and gear away is given a SDQ.

 

Now our shooter is showing his unloaded guns to another shooter during lunch break and he sweeps someone who is also behind the line. Heck he has his gun pointed in safe direction and someone who wasn't paying attention walks in front of the muzzle.

 

DING! DING! DING! time to pack up and go home.

 

 

 

 

Then lobby for a rules change. Common sense and attentiveness should be enough, but the rules are there and part of the game, so we abide. If there is a good reason to change the rules, they usually get changed.

 

CR

 

Why? I am not familiar with who is in charge of SASS anymore. Are your representing the opinion of the owners of SASS? If so I understand you telling me to go pound sand. If not then my opinion carries as much weight as yours despite the lynching party present.

 

 

 

Still not giving an opinion here, just asking what I think is a relevant question. When do the rules take affect?

 

Well where does safety take place? At the entrance of the range, when you register at the office / table or at the loading table. If at the loading table then any unsafe gun handling and any violation of SASS Rules is ok until you get to the loading table.

 

For instance, I arrive in the parking lot the morning of a match and start loading gear into my cart. As I check my pistols before putting them in their holsters and then into the cart I find some empties, am I to be penalized?

 

Yep. SDQ #1.

 

Same scenario except it's a few minutes later and I find the empties at the loading table for the first stage. Am I to be penalized? Based on what I've just read, some folks here would give me a penalty for showing up at the loading table with the loaded pistols so I should also get the same penalty if I'd found them at the car, right?

 

SDQ #2. Since you had the empties in your car when you arrived it is SDQ #2. The good news is you don't have to worry about cleaning your guns. Two SDQ's sends you packing as a MDQ.

 

If not, what's the difference between the two?

 

Those who want to disqualify other shooters probably realize they have shown up at matches and the loading table at the first stage or course of fire with empty brass in their gun and don't want to be given a SDQ for what they know is not a unsafe condition.