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Hoss

HYPOTHETICAL "WHATS THE CALL"

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Never had this happen, or even heard of it, but operating under the assumption that most anything can and will happen.....

 

Shooter comes to first stage of day, ready to load. Discovers live rounds in his revolver when he puts it on the loading table.

 

As I read the ROI, it would be a SDQ for

 

Loading at other than the designated loading position or firing line.

 

or

 

Failure to adhere to loading and unloading procedures.

 

but

 

Arriving at the designated loading area with uncleared firearms after completing a stage

within the same day (assessed on the previously completed stage).

 

So, would a shooter have a valid argument that all he did was arrive at loading table for 1st stage of day with an uncleared firearm?

 

Could it be a MDQ?

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Stage DQ for what stage? He/She hasn't shot a stage.

 

Cold Range? Then it's a range issue.

 

Phantom

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exactly what Phantom said.

 

 

..........Widder

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Stage DQ for what stage? He/She hasn't shot a stage.

 

Cold Range? Then it's a range issue.

 

Phantom

 

exactly what Phantom said.

 

 

..........Widder

 

What they said...

 

Rance ;)

Thinkin' the first stage of the day yer ok.. after that it's a no no.. :)

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Stage DQ for what stage? He/She hasn't shot a stage.

 

Cold Range? Then it's a range issue.

 

Phantom

+1

 

No call unless range rules apply.

 

Similar to having spent brass in your pistol at the LT on the first stage.

 

WK

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That's why you check any firearm before you handle it.

I might be the only one handle mine but I check every time it comes out of the case

After a stage it goes to the cart then I will check it again before I go to the loading table

It's just good practice to check

 

Billy the Avenger

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Stage DQ for what stage? He/She hasn't shot a stage.

 

Cold Range? Then it's a range issue.

 

Phantom

What Phantom said.

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Did the shooter sweep anyone as he was bringing his firearms to loading table? MDQ for sweeping another person with a loaded firearm, regardless of range rules.

 

=

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Agree no call unless local rules are broken.

 

I agree that you would like somewhere down the line the guy would have checked to see if his firearms were clear. Thinking this is an accident waiting to happen

 

cr

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I'm in 100% agreement, a gun should be checked every time its cased, uncased, leaves your possession for any reason, any amount of time. I certainly would not want to give a penalty where none is earned, but this scenario seems much more egregious to me than a dropped empty gun, or leaving spent brass in one, that's why I was curious as to what any penalty would be. I'm still half a mind that its a SDQ for "Loading at other than the designated loading position or firing line." although most on here think its a no call. As of right now, unless I heard differently, I would go with the majority of the more experienced shooters on here and go with no call.

Follow up....its the 2nd stage of the day, shooter comes to line with rifle open, supposedly empty and verified at ULT. Works the leave a time or 2 as many shooters do, and out pops a live round? (my call would be SDQ on previous stage for failing to clear gun) But again, a live round is worse than a empty case.

 

And I'm not trying to nit-pick or create a ton of what-ifs, these are things I've thought of that could happen.

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I'm in 100% agreement, a gun should be checked every time its cased, uncased, leaves your possession for any reason, any amount of time. I certainly would not want to give a penalty where none is earned, but this scenario seems much more egregious to me than a dropped empty gun, or leaving spent brass in one, that's why I was curious as to what any penalty would be. I'm still half a mind that its a SDQ for "Loading at other than the designated loading position or firing line." although most on here think its a no call. As of right now, unless I heard differently, I would go with the majority of the more experienced shooters on here and go with no call.

 

Follow up....its the 2nd stage of the day, shooter comes to line with rifle open, supposedly empty and verified at ULT. Works the leave a time or 2 as many shooters do, and out pops a live round? (my call would be SDQ on previous stage for failing to clear gun) But again, a live round is worse than a empty case.

 

And I'm not trying to nit-pick or create a ton of what-ifs, these are things I've thought of that could happen.

 

If he opens the lever and out pops a round, he's had one chambered since the ULT of the last stage. if you've moved from one stage to another and he has a muzzle-up designed gun cart, he's swept himself. MDQ. if he's not swept anyone it's an SDQ for changing location with a live round under a cocked hammer or a gun with the hammer down on a live round. (he had to leave the stage with it like that, then had to leave the ULT like that)

 

if he's levered his rifle and chambered one from the magazine, it should be an SDQ for arriving at the designated loading area with uncleared firearms after completing a stage withing the same day. (and how did the TO not COUNT his short properly? Where were the spotters? having lunch?)

 

Either way, the TO or a posse marshal oughta pull the shooter to the side and sort out the "why's and hows" so it doesn't happen again. If a fellow shooter see's it, they should make the TO/posse marhsals aware of what happened so it can be dealt with. Doesn't have to get ugly, but rules have been violated and the shooter needs to be aware.

 

The answer is to chamber-check every single firearm correctly both when you load them from your car/truck, and when you load them from the ULT. It's quick and easy and may save a LIFE.

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Hoss Roonwright, on 11 Aug 2015 - 1:19 PM, said:snapback.png

I'm in 100% agreement, a gun should be checked every time its cased, uncased, leaves your possession for any reason, any amount of time. I certainly would not want to give a penalty where none is earned, but this scenario seems much more egregious to me than a dropped empty gun, or leaving spent brass in one, that's why I was curious as to what any penalty would be. I'm still half a mind that its a SDQ for "Loading at other than the designated loading position or firing line." although most on here think its a no call. As of right now, unless I heard differently, I would go with the majority of the more experienced shooters on here and go with no call.

Follow up....its the 2nd stage of the day, shooter comes to line with rifle open, supposedly empty and verified at ULT. Works the leave a time or 2 as many shooters do, and out pops a live round? (my call would be SDQ on previous stage for failing to clear gun) But again, a live round is worse than a empty case.

 

And I'm not trying to nit-pick or create a ton of what-ifs, these are things I've thought of that could happen.

 

If he opens the lever and out pops a round, he's had one chambered since the ULT of the last stage. if you've moved from one stage to another and he has a muzzle-up designed gun cart, he's swept himself. MDQ. if he's not swept anyone it's an SDQ for changing location with a live round under a cocked hammer or a gun with the hammer down on a live round. (he had to leave the stage with it like that, then had to leave the ULT like that)

 

if he's levered his rifle and chambered one from the magazine, it should be an SDQ for arriving at the designated loading area with uncleared firearms after completing a stage withing the same day. (and how did the TO not COUNT his short properly? Where were the spotters? having lunch?)

 

Either way, the TO or a posse marshal oughta pull the shooter to the side and sort out the "why's and hows" so it doesn't happen again. If a fellow shooter see's it, they should make the TO/posse marhsals aware of what happened so it can be dealt with. Doesn't have to get ugly, but rules have been violated and the shooter needs to be aware.

 

The answer is to chamber-check every single firearm correctly both when you load them from your car/truck, and when you load them from the ULT. It's quick and easy and may save a LIFE.

 

 

 

HD, per Hoss's post, shooter came to line with rifle open. Details are important when making a ruling. As it is also important to make sure the shooter understands exactly why they are receiving the penalty.

 

Page 26 Shooter's Handbook - 35. Competitors arriving at the designated loading area with uncleared firearms after completing a stage within the same day will be assessed a Stage Disqualification penalty on the previously completed stage.

 

SDQ on the previous stage.

 

WK

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Hoss Roonwright, on 11 Aug 2015 - 1:19 PM, said:snapback.png

 

If he opens the lever and out pops a round, he's had one chambered since the ULT of the last stage. if you've moved from one stage to another and he has a muzzle-up designed gun cart, he's swept himself. MDQ. if he's not swept anyone it's an SDQ for changing location with a live round under a cocked hammer or a gun with the hammer down on a live round. (he had to leave the stage with it like that, then had to leave the ULT like that)

 

if he's levered his rifle and chambered one from the magazine, it should be an SDQ for arriving at the designated loading area with uncleared firearms after completing a stage withing the same day. (and how did the TO not COUNT his short properly? Where were the spotters? having lunch?)

 

Either way, the TO or a posse marshal oughta pull the shooter to the side and sort out the "why's and hows" so it doesn't happen again. If a fellow shooter see's it, they should make the TO/posse marhsals aware of what happened so it can be dealt with. Doesn't have to get ugly, but rules have been violated and the shooter needs to be aware.

 

The answer is to chamber-check every single firearm correctly both when you load them from your car/truck, and when you load them from the ULT. It's quick and easy and may save a LIFE.

 

 

 

HD, per Hoss's post, shooter came to line with rifle open. Details are important when making a ruling. As it is also important to make sure the shooter understands exactly why they are receiving the penalty.

 

Page 26 Shooter's Handbook - 35. Competitors arriving at the designated loading area with uncleared firearms after completing a stage within the same day will be assessed a Stage Disqualification penalty on the previously completed stage.

 

SDQ on the previous stage.

 

WK

 

 

I understand, that's why I gave both scenarios (see red highlight, we arrived at the same conclusion).

 

just opening up the idea of the 'what-if's' since we're talking conjecture. I understand what Hoss said initially. but I could see the next scenario of "what if he comes to the table with the lever down.... etc.. etc... etc....

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It has happened that's why there is a rule stating NO CALL for coming to the line on first stage of the day with loaded firearms.

 

someone show me the DQ for sweeping yourself,, you may look a while.... and if that is the case, most anyone with a two wheel cart wud have sdqs on each stage!!

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P20 of the shooter manual

 

Major safety infractions result in the shooters disqualification from thee stage or the match. a second Stage Disqualification in the match will result in a Match DQ. "Major" infractions include a dropped gun, any discharge that impacts within ten-feet of any person (an impact within five-feet is a match DQ), violatio of the 180 degree safety rule, "sweeping" any person with the muzzle of a firearm and similar acts that have a high potential for personal injury.

 

I would say having a long gun, with a round in the chamber and under the hammer, bouncing around in the gun cart as you merrily prance between two stages - with the rifle pointed at your HEAD all the while - constitutes an act that has "high potential for personal injury".

 

Doing the same thing with an unloaded rifle does not.

 

it's not about just sweeping yourself, it's about pointing a loaded firearm at ANYONE - that includes the dude that loaded it.

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It has happened that's why there is a rule stating NO CALL for coming to the line on first stage of the day with loaded firearms.

 

someone show me the DQ for sweeping yourself,, you may look a while.... and if that is the case, most anyone with a two wheel cart wud have sdqs on each stage!!

Also, RO1 handbook, P25

 

Match Disqualification: Bullet point #8"

 

Sweeping ANYONE with a loaded firearm.

 

(I do believe the owner of the gun qualifies as "anyone")

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contact pwb,,, you will be enlightened...

 

if you don't, go ahead and give sdqs to all who sweep themselves with empty guns in their two wheel gun carts...

 

and anyone doesn't not mean yourself....at least here....

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now, you cud call someone for hauling around a loaded closed rifle with unsafe gun handling...

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I'll bet $500 you are allowed to sweep yourself................any takers?

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Whiskey_Kid, on 11 Aug 2015 - 2:15 PM, said:snapback.png

 

Hoss Roonwright, on 11 Aug 2015 - 1:19 PM, said:snapback.png

 

If he opens the lever and out pops a round, he's had one chambered since the ULT of the last stage. if you've moved from one stage to another and he has a muzzle-up designed gun cart, he's swept himself. MDQ. if he's not swept anyone it's an SDQ for changing location with a live round under a cocked hammer or a gun with the hammer down on a live round. (he had to leave the stage with it like that, then had to leave the ULT like that)

 

if he's levered his rifle and chambered one from the magazine, it should be an SDQ for arriving at the designated loading area with uncleared firearms after completing a stage withing the same day. (and how did the TO not COUNT his short properly? Where were the spotters? having lunch?)

 

Either way, the TO or a posse marshal oughta pull the shooter to the side and sort out the "why's and hows" so it doesn't happen again. If a fellow shooter see's it, they should make the TO/posse marhsals aware of what happened so it can be dealt with. Doesn't have to get ugly, but rules have been violated and the shooter needs to be aware.

 

The answer is to chamber-check every single firearm correctly both when you load them from your car/truck, and when you load them from the ULT. It's quick and easy and may save a LIFE.

 

 

 

HD, per Hoss's post, shooter came to line with rifle open. Details are important when making a ruling. As it is also important to make sure the shooter understands exactly why they are receiving the penalty.

 

Page 26 Shooter's Handbook - 35. Competitors arriving at the designated loading area with uncleared firearms after completing a stage within the same day will be assessed a Stage Disqualification penalty on the previously completed stage.

 

SDQ on the previous stage.

 

WK

 

 

I understand, that's why I gave both scenarios (see red highlight, we arrived at the same conclusion).

 

just opening up the idea of the 'what-if's' since we're talking conjecture. I understand what Hoss said initially. but I could see the next scenario of "what if he comes to the table with the lever down.... etc.. etc... etc....

 

HD,

 

Do you close your lever when you leave the loading table? If not the live round is NOT in the chamber under a cocked hammer until he levers the rifle at the loading table. That is why the penalty is an SDQ. Once he left the unloading table with round or rounds in the rifle, action open he earned the penalty. At the loading table, with the rifle in your control you may cycle the round into the chamber, and eject it out by cycling the lever.

 

Also, Culpepper is correct, sweeping yourself is not a MDQ, its just not something you should do.

 

WK

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contact pwb,,, you will be enlightened...

 

if you don't, go ahead and give sdqs to all who sweep themselves with empty guns in their two wheel gun carts...

 

and anyone doesn't not mean yourself....at least here....

 

 

Whiskey_Kid, on 11 Aug 2015 - 2:15 PM, said:snapback.png

 

I understand, that's why I gave both scenarios (see red highlight, we arrived at the same conclusion).

 

just opening up the idea of the 'what-if's' since we're talking conjecture. I understand what Hoss said initially. but I could see the next scenario of "what if he comes to the table with the lever down.... etc.. etc... etc....

 

HD,

 

Do you close your lever when you leave the loading table? If not the live round is NOT in the chamber under a cocked hammer until he levers the rifle at the loading table. That is why the penalty is an SDQ. Once he left the unloading table with round or rounds in the rifle, action open he earned the penalty. At the loading table, with the rifle in your control you may cycle the round into the chamber, and eject it out by cycling the lever.

 

Also, Culpepper is correct, sweeping yourself is not a MDQ, its just not something you should do.

 

WK

 

if you have a rifle in your hand, lever closed. you open the lever - a round comes out. where would that round HAVE BEEN? in the chamber. right? that would make the condition of the firearm "chamber loaded" before the lever was opened..

 

 

you know.. forget it. it's not worth the trouble.

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If....if...if...if...if...

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Here's another wrinkle. A shooter can finish a stage, leave unexpended rounds in his rifle, which are not under the hammer, in the chamber, or on/in the carrier. How? At a fairly recent regional match, the stage scenario called for 5 or 6 rifle knockdowns (memory?) with remaining rounds dumped downrange. Only knockdowns left standing were misses, but could be made up with shotgun. No pistols on this stage. This was intended to be a no miss stage, and some posses might have been a little lax in assigning spotter duties, since all targets were knockdowns and the shotgun makeup just had to be engaged.

 

Shooter knocks down all rifle, then dumps (in fact seemingly overrunning and dropping the hammer on an empty chamber), vertically stages rifle, then runs down range with shotgun. He is called clean, but TO says, "Are you sure you shot 10, I only counted 7 from your rifle." Shooter maintains muzzle safely downrange and levers the rifle several times to demonstrate it is empty. Shooter says, "Then where are the live rounds?" Everyone searches and no live rounds are found. Loading table officer says, "I watched him load 10." Everyone is confused, but "clean" is the call.

 

At the next stage's loading table, same shooter counts out 10 and starts loading his rifle, but can't get them all in there. So, he carefully levers the rifle empty on the table and realizes he now has 13 in front of him. Three live rounds, and the follower, were stuck somewhere up the magazine tube. Pushing fresh rounds up the magazine freed the stuck spot. No penalty was assessed. The shooter didn't sweep anyone and maintained safety at all times.

 

The regional match is over, and any correct penalties are now "would-da, could-da, should-da." It wasn't my posse. Names were changed to protect ... wait, I didn't use names.

 

The point I'm trying to make without totally highjacking this tread, is ALWAYS TREAT EVERY GUN AS IF IT WERE LOADED. ALWAYS!

 

What makes me really cringe, is someone picking up a gun in a vendor's tent and rapidly dry firing it at the canvas walls. "I've done that a million time without a mishap." Yeah, but what about the 1,000,001st?

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At the loading table, with the rifle in your control you may cycle the round into the chamber, and eject it out by cycling the lever.




that is only true IF the rifle was the last firearm shot on the stage....


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if you have a rifle in your hand, lever closed. you open the lever - a round comes out. where would that round HAVE BEEN? in the chamber. right? that would make the condition of the firearm "chamber loaded" before the lever was opened..

 

 

you know.. forget it. it's not worth the trouble.

If you first, come to the loading table with a rifle that is open. All is good. Then you close the lever and chamber the round that you didn't know was in the gun, then open lever and the round pops out...you have the sequence of events that would occur.

 

And how about taking that $500 bet on sweeping yourself...

 

Folks, this is why so many folks get annoyed at matches...people think they are THE rules guru and yet they are far from it.

 

Cheers!

Phantom...far from a Rules Guru...

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Here's another wrinkle. A shooter can finish a stage, leave unexpended rounds in his rifle, which are not under the hammer, in the chamber, or on/in the carrier. How? At a fairly recent regional match, the stage scenario called for 5 or 6 rifle knockdowns (memory?) with remaining rounds dumped downrange. Only knockdowns left standing were misses, but could be made up with shotgun. No pistols on this stage. This was intended to be a no miss stage, and some posses might have been a little lax in assigning spotter duties, since all targets were knockdowns and the shotgun makeup just had to be engaged.

 

Shooter knocks down all rifle, then dumps (in fact seemingly overrunning and dropping the hammer on an empty chamber), vertically stages rifle, then runs down range with shotgun. He is called clean, but TO says, "Are you sure you shot 10, I only counted 7 from your rifle." Shooter maintains muzzle safely downrange and levers the rifle several times to demonstrate it is empty. Shooter says, "Then where are the live rounds?" Everyone searches and no live rounds are found. Loading table officer says, "I watched him load 10." Everyone is confused, but "clean" is the call.

 

At the next stage's loading table, same shooter counts out 10 and starts loading his rifle, but can't get them all in there. So, he carefully levers the rifle empty on the table and realizes he now has 13 in front of him. Three live rounds, and the follower, were stuck somewhere up the magazine tube. Pushing fresh rounds up the magazine freed the stuck spot. No penalty was assessed. The shooter didn't sweep anyone and maintained safety at all times.

 

The regional match is over, and any correct penalties are now "would-da, could-da, should-da." It wasn't my posse. Names were changed to protect ... wait, I didn't use names.

 

The point I'm trying to make without totally highjacking this tread, is ALWAYS TREAT EVERY GUN AS IF IT WERE LOADED. ALWAYS!

 

What makes me really cringe, is someone picking up a gun in a vendor's tent and rapidly dry firing it at the canvas walls. "I've done that a million time without a mishap." Yeah, but what about the 1,000,001st?

if you have a glitch in your rifle and reload,,,, play it safe and holler broke as you set it down,,,, there may be a round stuck in it!!! then you are covered!!!

 

the shooter above should have received 3 misses and a msv.. btw....hmmmmm nooooo, a sdq for arriving with rounds in rifle from last stage, me thinks

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At the loading table, with the rifle in your control you may cycle the round into the chamber, and eject it out by cycling the lever.

that is only true IF the rifle was the last firearm shot on the stage....

Culpepper, you are correct about the unloading table.

The situation I was referring to was at the loading table. Also the fact that with the lever open while the shooter was going to and from his guncart the round wasn't in a closed chamber with the hammer back untill the rifle was cycled at the loading table.

 

Thanks,

Whiskey Kid

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HD, you've come a long way in this game in a short period of time. I mean that in a very positive way. Having said that you're wrong on this one.

Also, RO1 handbook, P25

Match Disqualification: Bullet point #8"

 

Sweeping ANYONE with a loaded firearm.

 

(I do believe the owner of the gun qualifies as "anyone")

First, the owner doesn't qualify as 'Anyone'. The description of a SDQ for sweeping empty and an MDQ for sweeping loaded are almost identical. ROI page 14 "Covering or sweeping an individual or group with the muzzle of an empty gun will result in a Stage Disqualification. Covering or sweeping an individual or group with the muzzle of a loaded gun will result in a Match Disqualification."

 

Your interpretation when extended to empty guns would suggest that anyone whose muzzles point at themselves while the guns are in a gun cart moving from stage to stage should be SDQed for sweeping "an individual or group with an empty gun'. So are you saying that when a long gun is loaded the owner is covered as 'an individual or group' but when it's unloaded the owner isn't an 'individual or group'?

 

The ROI doesn't make that distinction. So, is it your position that sweeping yourself with an unloaded long gun while it's in your cart is a SDQ? If not then you're saying you are an 'anyone' when the gun is loaded, but you're not when it's unloaded.

 

Try extending that rule interpretation to crossdraw shooters, are you going to MDQ them if their muzzle ends up pointed at their thigh or forward foot as they're drawing?

 

Take note of the text underneath Pretty Boy's avatar. It says RO Instructor. I don't think he's active in that role anymore, but he was certified as such, which means 99% of the time he's probably got a pretty good idea what he talking about (although there are other RO Instructors whose posts can make you wonder: FRR).

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Still active as RO2 instructor,,, was on ROC but no longer.....

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Remember in the days of vertical staging every shooter swept themselves when retrieving or staging the rifle or shotgun. Especially SXS's. Watch someone holster their strong side pistol, they beak the 170 and sweep themselves, gun pointing at foot.

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Well, I'm man enough to admit when apparently I'm wrong.

 

won't be the first time, won't be the last.

 

carry on.

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