Dirt Merchant # 61422 Posted August 4, 2015 Share Posted August 4, 2015 I like everyone else am impressed by the abilities of the new group of young shooters and their blazing speeds. Numerous sub 10 second stages are being shown on youtube by several shooters. It seems one thing they all have in common is extremely high navels which is where their shotgun belts are riding. I know I will get a ration of grief but the rules are made for everyone and if the youngest and the best cannot abide by them then why would anyone else? They are setting a new standard for the next group that comes along. Dirt bring on the disbelief and grief Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smokestack SASS#87384 Posted August 4, 2015 Share Posted August 4, 2015 I think we need to come up with a more enforceable rule. The honor system is obviously not working and match directors should not have to explore a shooters anatomy to make a call. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L Posted August 4, 2015 Share Posted August 4, 2015 I think we need to come up with a more enforceable rule. The honor system is obviously not working and match directors should not have to explore a shooters anatomy to make a call. It is easily enforceable (and it is NOT just the younger shooters that are not in compliance) Simply ask the shooter to close his eyes; then put his finger in his belly-button. If it hits SG ammo, he's good to go. If not, inform him that it MUST be adjusted to the proper/legal location on his torso or the penalties (use of illegally acquired ammo P+misses) WILL BE assessed. That works with ALL shooters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lunger Posted August 4, 2015 Share Posted August 4, 2015 Many shooters wear their gunbelt low, and there's quite a gap between their gunbelt, and sg belt. This gives the appearance of having the sg belt too high every time. I've been checked on it numerous times. I'm sure some folks may actually wear them too high, but I'll bet it's pretty rare. Not sure how much, if any, time difference would be provable on one of the quicker shooters. Anyway, sg shells need to be at the naval. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lunger Posted August 4, 2015 Share Posted August 4, 2015 I remember the pwb test! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smokestack SASS#87384 Posted August 4, 2015 Share Posted August 4, 2015 It is easily enforceable (and it is NOT just the younger shooters that are not in compliance) Simply ask the shooter to close his eyes; then put his finger in his belly-button. If it hits SG ammo, he's good to go. If not, inform him that it MUST be adjusted to the proper/legal location on his torso or the penalties (use of illegally acquired ammo P+misses) WILL BE assessed. That works with ALL shooters. I did not even imply that it was predominantly younger shooters doing this. As far as the eyes closed test, if the shooter decides to touch shells instead of reaching for their belly button nothing will be enforced. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirt Merchant # 61422 Posted August 4, 2015 Author Share Posted August 4, 2015 I have seen high SG. Belts being worn for years but it seems like because the younger shooters are more slim / fit it shows more if the belt is higher than allowed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L Posted August 4, 2015 Share Posted August 4, 2015 I did not even imply that it was predominantly younger shooters doing this. That was in response to the OP's comment. As far as the eyes closed test, if the shooter decides to touch shells instead of reaching for their belly button nothing will be enforced. ...and they would be guilty of CHEATING at that point. Subject to MDQ. ...but if no one is willing to enforce the SG ammo rule, they sure aren't going to enforce the "unsportmanlike conduct" MDQ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rio Brazos Kid Posted August 4, 2015 Share Posted August 4, 2015 I'm sure we've all seen it. Shotgun Belts worn up near the breasts. Never seen it challenged though, at least at Monthly's, which is all I shoot. Cross draws also. Very obviously worn with more than the 30 degree departure from straight hang, Some a LOT more. Never have seen a RO question anyone, EVER. Whenever I have mentioned it, I get a B.S. answer. WE musn't hurt anybody's feelings I guess. After all, It's only a rule!!! RBK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deuce Stevens SASS#55996 Posted August 4, 2015 Share Posted August 4, 2015 I'm sure we've all seen it. Shotgun Belts worn up near the breasts. Never seen it challenged though, at least at Monthly's, which is all I shoot. Cross draws also. Very obviously worn with more than the 30 degree departure from straight hang, Some a LOT more. Never have seen a RO question anyone, EVER. Whenever I have mentioned it, I get a B.S. answer. WE musn't hurt anybody's feelings I guess. After all, It's only a rule!!! RBK I can tell you that when working as a Range Master at Winter Range and EOT I have checked dozens of both. Locally our cowboys and cowgirls look pretty good. Sounds like a rules application problem in your area. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deadeye George Posted August 4, 2015 Share Posted August 4, 2015 I don't really understand why people make excuses for the people breaking the rules, maybe that's why they continue breaking them, because they think no one really cares. You can watch a handful of youtube videos any day of the week and even some posted on this forum and it's quite easy to see ammo belts being worn half way to their chins! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Widder, SASS #59054 Posted August 4, 2015 Share Posted August 4, 2015 If some of you are seeing an infraction of the SG Belt rule at your local clubs, then it must be addressed at the local club level. If you are participating in this Wire thread, you might be the ONLY one in your club involved in reading these comments.....so unless YOU take some initiative to get this addressed at the local club level, then it will continue at YOUR club. Although I only attend about 4 or 5 big matches a year (state & regional), I don't recall seeing abuses in this guideline rule for wearing SG Belts. One thing I don't understand is the perception that wearing the SG belt high somehow enhances the shooters speed, especially the younger, slim and trim shooters. To me, it would seem an enhancement of speed when the SG belt is worn within the rule guideline. ..........Widder Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slowhand Bob, 24229 Posted August 4, 2015 Share Posted August 4, 2015 DM, very obvious and I was a bit surprised that no one even mentioned it at all. There are a few that would have been noted and crucified BUT most probably do not want to call out such a young and obviously talented shooter on such a public forum. My interpretation of why??? I think this might have become a rule shortly before I jined up, some of you older members might remember better?? Unlike the never ending cross-draw dance arguing, the belt rule never seemed to be a favoured rule by membership anyway. Not taking a stance either way but those who argue against the cross-draw consider it a safety issue while those who do not like the belly button rule consider it to be another case of costuming and whether or not old men should have other old men wanting to take a peek!! I decided early on that it was a rule that I did not like and when many guys found AND posted old links and photos of early shot-gunners actually wearing shot shell belts at bra level, I concluded that it was a personal call 'rule' made by someone who had the power to make such a call. PS: Just for information, the 'at or below' belly button rule is a big disadvantage for us old fat guys, in particular when that belly button sits on top of a huge hard diabetic belly. It is either going to sit above the high spot of the belly or it will spend the day trying to accommodate gravity by sliding down the mountain. It is not bad enough that SASS passes rules that put a diabetic person at a disadvantage, they done it because someone did not like that look for costuming. See my side profile to see the typical diabetic/insulin belly, and yes, it is the reason we see so many shooters trying to couple suspenders to their gun belts or keep tugging at the belts sliding downhill towards the front. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Griff Posted August 4, 2015 Share Posted August 4, 2015 It is an advantage to wear your shotgun belt up high... just like wearing both your sixguns on the strong side is an advantage over having them separated by a good measure... if your shooting style is such... that it minimizes the necessary distance to complete transitions or reloading. If you're seeing rule violators, either step up and call 'em on it, report it to someone that will, or continue to be part of the problem. "PC" does not mean "politically correct", it means PUBLIC COWARDICE! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michigan Slim Posted August 4, 2015 Share Posted August 4, 2015 I can tell you that my belt looks high up. BUT, I have a 28" waste so my belt/pistols ride low. My SG belt is a couple inches higher, above my waste band, and snugged tight around my BB so it stays in place. Feel free to call me on it but you might see more than you want when I show you my button.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calico Mary Posted August 4, 2015 Share Posted August 4, 2015 aw geez Slim....sum folks mite be tryin' ta eat or sumthin'...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deuce Stevens SASS#55996 Posted August 4, 2015 Share Posted August 4, 2015 I can tell you that my belt looks high up. BUT, I have a 28" waste so my belt/pistols ride low. My SG belt is a couple inches higher, above my waste band, and snugged tight around my BB so it stays in place. Feel free to call me on it but you might see more than you want when I show you my button.... WHAT???????? YOU have a 28" waist.....astounding........ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Most Wanted Posted August 4, 2015 Share Posted August 4, 2015 I really have never understood the need for the rule in the first place. With that said I would be suprised if the shooter in question is not legal. Some of you havent seen ( me included) a thin waist in the mirror in a very long time. When someone is thin and young they tend to wear their pants low or even Very low. Not surprised that some old guys are throwing darts at some young guys over the internet. By all means if your at a shoot and see something in Person make a call. I think your in for a surprise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L Posted August 4, 2015 Share Posted August 4, 2015 For those of you that might not be aware (and those who are guessing WHY the rule was implemented in the first place). 1) ALL clothing and equipment MUST be worn appropriately, how it was intended and how it would have been worn in the OLD WEST or as seen on B-Western movies and television. REF: SHB p.3 IF anyone has a period photo of a shotgun ammo belt being worn in that way, they MIGHT be able to argue from a more informed position. 2) Some shooters found that single-loading an 1897 pump was faster with the ammo in a higher position that allowed them to keep the SG on the shoulder. Wearing the ammo belt at the same height as the firearm was/is a definite competitive advantage. (there's a reason I began shooting my SxS from the hip...it was closer to the ammunition...shorter movement required to reload) 3) Shortly after the practice began to become popular, the WB and TGs decided that "shotgun bras" just plain looked stoopid; and voted to ban the practice.The "belly button" rule was put in place as an acceptable & easily measurable position Penalty for violation was a SDQ for "use or presence of illegal equipment". 4) In February of 2012, all of the "ammo-related" equipment regulations were moved from the "illegal equipment" list to fall under the "use of illegally acquired ammunition" rule. Penalty for violation is the "P" + MISSES when ammo is used on a stage that was not brought/carried in an approved manner: REF: RO1 pp. 24 & 30 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phantom, SASS #54973 Posted August 4, 2015 Share Posted August 4, 2015 Just an FYI, I know diabetic people that are not fat. So there... Phantom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cheyenne Culpepper 32827 Posted August 4, 2015 Share Posted August 4, 2015 I see way more very low holsters than I do high SG belts,,,, no one says a thing! the rule about equipment worn appropriately is the least enforced rule we have... flame away.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Short Wagon Posted August 4, 2015 Share Posted August 4, 2015 Just curious how a SG belt worn high is considered an advantage yet bandoleers are considered SASS legal. Wouldnt some of those shells in theory by way above the belly button? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Most Wanted Posted August 4, 2015 Share Posted August 4, 2015 Besides a bandilier was there any SG belts in the 1800s. Im not into history so this is a serious question. If yes can I see a picture. Thanks MW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L Posted August 4, 2015 Share Posted August 4, 2015 I see way more very low holsters than I do high SG belts,,,, no one says a thing! the rule about equipment worn appropriately is the least enforced rule we have... flame away.... Let's TRY to keep this one on track. We all KNOW how you feel about "crotch holsters"...in fact, I think you spend WAY too much time thinking about them...not that there's anything wrong with that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L Posted August 4, 2015 Share Posted August 4, 2015 Just curious how a SG belt worn high is considered an advantage yet bandoleers are considered SASS legal. Wouldn't some of those shells in theory by way above the belly button? Try using both. A secured belt around the upper body at the same level as the SG is WAY MORE advantageous than an unsecured bandolier with multiple levels of ammo (and the bandolier is "period correct" as worn). The advantage of the "shotgun bra" was compounded by how it looks. So who's going to bring up the physical differences between male & female shooters in this regard? ...it ain't gonna be me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cheyenne Culpepper 32827 Posted August 4, 2015 Share Posted August 4, 2015 Let's TRY to keep this one on track. We all KNOW how you feel about "crotch holsters"...in fact, I think you spend WAY too much time thinking about them...not that there's anything wrong with that. wasn't going that direction there,,, but the holster belt... how low some are worn,,, I haven't seen a single youngun wear a SG belt too high myself.... it's usually older men,,,,, and then it just looks that way because their belly hangs so low!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L Posted August 4, 2015 Share Posted August 4, 2015 Besides a bandilier was there any SG belts in the 1800s. Im not into history so this is a serious question. If yes can I see a picture. Thanks MW Here's one with BOTH: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L Posted August 4, 2015 Share Posted August 4, 2015 wasn't going that direction there,,, but the holster belt... how low some are worn,,, I haven't seen a single youngun wear a SG belt too high myself.... it's usually older men,,,,, and then it just looks that way because their belly hangs so low!!! The first time the "shut yer eyes & find yer navel" test was used was at a Regional regarding a youngster who looked like he was "out of compliance" (enough that some folks asked the RM to check him out). He passed the test, BTW. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boggus Deal #64218 Posted August 4, 2015 Share Posted August 4, 2015 Besides a bandilier was there any SG belts in the 1800s. Im not into history so this is a serious question. If yes can I see a picture. Thanks MW At the SASS museum, there is one with all metal loops that is period, as well. Really cool to see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L Posted August 4, 2015 Share Posted August 4, 2015 At the SASS museum, there is one with all metal loops that is period, as well. Really cool to see. I know a couple local shooters who have & use those (originals). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L Posted August 4, 2015 Share Posted August 4, 2015 Here's an original Mills SG ammo belt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chili Pepper Pete 11917 Posted August 4, 2015 Share Posted August 4, 2015 Is there any reason that suspenders could not be added to a shotgun belt to keep it at the same height? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirt Merchant # 61422 Posted August 4, 2015 Author Share Posted August 4, 2015 wasn't going that direction there,,, but the holster belt... how low some are worn,,, I haven't seen a single youngun wear a SG belt too high myself.... it's usually older men,,,,, and then it just looks that way because their belly hangs so low!!! go to the "9 second stage " thread in this forum which is why I started this to begin with. I am old and fat, it's not about me gaining an edge or a shooter gaining and edge over me, it's about a mostly ignored rule and I play by the rules. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slowhand Bob, 24229 Posted August 4, 2015 Share Posted August 4, 2015 I was a new guy, just starting out when I saw a double barl side by side shooter, think his name was Deadly Redly (perhaps??) shooting with the shotgun mounted all the way to the armpit and he was pretty good at it. What I think was applicable about it was the fact that it placed his belt in what was the one position that his belt would stay put without staples or super glue! Probably at least twenty years ago since some old photos were produced on this here WIRE but I did not know that these old photos would be very important later and should be saved, nah, if those photos showed up tomorrow it would not change the rule. I would bet that MR Redlys(?) reason for the wore his belt had a lot more to do with comfort and convience than it does with a simple gaming trick. Pete, the belt suspenders thing is a good question to ask PWB while we have his ear Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Most Wanted Posted August 4, 2015 Share Posted August 4, 2015 I'm no Lefty and sorry for this comparison but I'm wearing my belt right over my belly button and my holsters low. I'm also 6'2" and 200 pounds so the ratio is off just a little...a lot. This is not normally how I wear my belts but after seeing the nine second run, maybe we all should. I think you may owe the young man an apology Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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