Widder, SASS #59054 Posted August 4, 2015 Share Posted August 4, 2015 I've recently worked on a Marlin 1894 that seemingly is a great rifle. In testing it, me and the owner put his dummy rounds thru it AND without firing, we also put a couple hundred loaded rounds thru it for cycling, feeding test. EVERYTHING we put in it worked flawless, even empties ........... UNTIL those same loaded rounds are fired. Then it seems to hiccup alittle somewhere every 10 or 20 live shots. The gremlin doesn't seem to be in the extraction or ejection but rather in the feeding process. Has anyone experienced anything like this and if so, what was the cause? DEFINITION OF HICCUP: its where the round is on the carrier going up towards the chamber and in some instances, actually starting to enter the chamber and during the momentum of feeding, something interrupts the smooth workings of the action and causes that 'bump' sensation. I've got a couple thoughts as to what it could be but before I get the rifle to check out, I thought I would search the knowledge of my Wire Pards. Thanks ..........Widder (always trying to learn more) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ace_of_Hearts Posted August 4, 2015 Share Posted August 4, 2015 I had one that was doing that..... It seems the extractor was sticking in "out" position. The next case that was fed was off center in alignment going in and would bind just a little. I removed the extractor and did a good cleaning, reassembled and the problem was gone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Widder, SASS #59054 Posted August 4, 2015 Author Share Posted August 4, 2015 Ace, do you have any idea why the Extractor worked great in feeding the 'test ammo' (live but unfired) but would stick out on 'fired' ammo. ..........Widder Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ace_of_Hearts Posted August 4, 2015 Share Posted August 4, 2015 Ace, do you have any idea why the Extractor worked great in feeding the 'test ammo' (live but unfired) but would stick out on 'fired' ammo. ..........Widder My guess is contamination from blow back. (Hey... It is a theory!) The older Henry Big Boys had this problem with cowboy ammo and not with factory ammo (which seals well). Then the extractor would fall out of the gun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cheyenne Culpepper 32827 Posted August 4, 2015 Share Posted August 4, 2015 maybe the ejector?? maybe getting in the way and after being fired it occasionally re-acts differently? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smokestack SASS#87384 Posted August 4, 2015 Share Posted August 4, 2015 My guess would be that the firing pin may for one reason or another (dirty/damaged) be sticking slightly forward and binding on the rim as the case comes up under it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billy the Avenger Posted August 4, 2015 Share Posted August 4, 2015 Widder check the screws lol are they tight Billy the Avenger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sedalia Dave Posted August 4, 2015 Share Posted August 4, 2015 When cycled with dummy rounds are you pulling the trigger? Do they have expended primers in them or something else? Can you pause when the hitch happens and have someone carefully inspect the position of the cartridge paying special attention to the position of the extractor and firinging pin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Original Lumpy Gritz Posted August 4, 2015 Share Posted August 4, 2015 Widder-What caliber? How much play is the in the 'tail' of the carrier where it mounts and pivots on the screw? I have learn'd that if you remove that 'slop' and shim the right side of the carrier's tail(pushes the carrier to the left of the rec'r)that really smooths things out. Has the bottom edge of the ejector been beveled for case rim clearance? Respectfully, OLG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Widder, SASS #59054 Posted August 4, 2015 Author Share Posted August 4, 2015 Thanks for all the GOOD replys and theories. Some of the design of the angle/slant feed system discounts some of the suggestions above, although I will DOUBLE CHECK those issues. Caliber is .38 Special. The rifle and its owner are now in another state but we are in communications about this present issue. Dummy rounds feed and eject perfect. More than a couple hundred Live (unfired) rounds feed and eject perfect. But once those SAME rounds are fired, that is when the little gremlin pops up. Lumpy, on the angle/slant feed mod, the cartridge stays on the left side of the carrier during the feeding process, regardless of any flop of the carrier. And, the forward extended section of the Ejector has been beveled and do not come into contact with the case rims during feeding. BUT, this is something that will be double checked by the owner. One thing that puzzles me is why would it ONLY do this during LIVE FIRE and not running rounds thru the action without firing. ..........Widder Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Widder, SASS #59054 Posted August 4, 2015 Author Share Posted August 4, 2015 Widder check the screws lol are they tight Billy the Avenger This will be double checked also Billy. See you in a couple days at GOA. ..........Widder Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Krazy Kajun Posted August 4, 2015 Share Posted August 4, 2015 I'm not a Marlin mechanic but just trying to think logically. If the rounds cycle well unfired and then the same rounds have a little hiccup while live fire is taking place could it be that something is a little loose and the extra vibration from firing is exacerbating the problem of something being a little loose fitting? Ejector and extractor would be likely candidates to check for proper fitment. Then there is the possibility of using that "special lube" to slick things up a bit Kajun Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Original Lumpy Gritz Posted August 4, 2015 Share Posted August 4, 2015 Widder-JJJ and I are have'n that same EXACT issue with "Satan's Rifle". The empty's turn 180* and just lay in the rec'r. I really think it's a extractor tension issue on the case. Empty cases do not have the nose heavy weight that the dummy ammo has. Had him buy new extractor and ejector. He's come'n over Wed, so we will give it a go. I also have my sledge hammer and sawsall ready- OLG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cheyenne Culpepper 32827 Posted August 4, 2015 Share Posted August 4, 2015 more peanut butter!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warden Callaway Posted August 4, 2015 Share Posted August 4, 2015 While we're working on Marlin feeding problems, I took my Marlin converted to C45S to and camera to range today. I ran 29 rounds (lost count and ejected one out). The light wasn't enough or the right place to catch a good view of what's happening. Looks like the rounds are turning on carrier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Original Lumpy Gritz Posted August 4, 2015 Share Posted August 4, 2015 Those rounds are jump'n out to the right side and are be'n push'd by the extractor tip. That's why you have to 'double-clutch' to fully chamber. OLG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warden Callaway Posted August 4, 2015 Share Posted August 4, 2015 But what is making them jump to the right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boggus Deal #64218 Posted August 4, 2015 Share Posted August 4, 2015 Widder, to take a shot at your original question. Since it only happens with live rounds, do you think the recoil is causing the gun to move enough to get the round out of line with the chamber? I know recoil isn't very but that's the only real difference. My other thought is that the hammer is being cocked by the bolt and is putting a bit of pressure on it maybe moving it out of alignment. Maybe try some dummy rounds but actually pulling the trigger instead of just running live ammo through it. I'm sure you've considered all of this but thought I would toss it out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Original Lumpy Gritz Posted August 4, 2015 Share Posted August 4, 2015 But what is making them jump to the right? Something with the carrier and/or when the round makes contact with the boltface. How does it run when you slow down the speed when you work the lever? OLG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warden Callaway Posted August 4, 2015 Share Posted August 4, 2015 I think I've found something. When the carrier raises the cartridge, the right side of the cartridge is limited by first the loading gate and then further up by the right side of the frame. The left side by the left wall of the receiver. With the Widowmaker C45S mod, the carrier is cut down pretty radically in the "saddle" to stop the stumpy cartridge so it lies in the front of the carrier. In deeping process, a lot of metal is removed between the "horns". By reexamination I see that when the cartridge is stripped off the carrier, it moves about 3/10 of an inch then the case rim contacts the horn extention on left side at about the 7:00 o'clock position. At the same time the case has risen enough to not be held by the right wall or the port. If the cartridge rim gets bumped by horn extention on the left side, it could (maybe) bump the head of the case to the right. I just took maybe 10/1000 out of the carrier behind the left horn in about the 7:00 o'clock position. I stopped outside and cycled 10 rounds through it without a bobble. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Widder, SASS #59054 Posted August 4, 2015 Author Share Posted August 4, 2015 Widder, to take a shot at your original question. Since it only happens with live rounds, do you think the recoil is causing the gun to move enough to get the round out of line with the chamber? I know recoil isn't very but that's the only real difference. My other thought is that the hammer is being cocked by the bolt and is putting a bit of pressure on it maybe moving it out of alignment. Maybe try some dummy rounds but actually pulling the trigger instead of just running live ammo through it. I'm sure you've considered all of this but thought I would toss it out. Hi Boggus. Right now, the rifle is being operated by the owner in Wisconsin.....but this is my thoughts. He states the empty FIRED cases are extracting and ejecting properly. THEN, its when a live round is being fed up 'towards' the chamber where the 'hitch' occurs (thats his word). Basically, a slight misfeed that is cured by jiggling the lever. What he and I are trying to learn is whether it might be some oddity in the rifle OR is it operator error by not fully working the lever. The manner in which I set up a Widdermatic, its VERY hard for any round on the carrier to get out of alignment due to recoil because the Angle/Slant modification positions the live round on the carrier in a manner which helps prevent roll offs or movement of a cartridge while sitting on the carrier. He is going to ask another Marlin shooter to run it and see what happens. In the meantime, he is going to run his friends Marlin, which has been servicing its owner flawlessly. ..........Widder Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rance - SASS # 54090 Posted August 4, 2015 Share Posted August 4, 2015 Tried to send ya a PM.. says ya can't receive any... Rance Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Original Lumpy Gritz Posted August 4, 2015 Share Posted August 4, 2015 Widder-could it be the extractor spring, or crud build up in the extractor hole in the bolt. That's not allowing the extractor to move around some, to let the case rim slip under the extractor's 'beek'??? PLEASE- clean out your PM's- OLG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Original Lumpy Gritz Posted August 5, 2015 Share Posted August 5, 2015 I think I've found something. When the carrier raises the cartridge, the right side of the cartridge is limited by first the loading gate and then further up by the right side of the frame. The left side by the left wall of the receiver. With the Widowmaker C45S mod, the carrier is cut down pretty radically in the "saddle" to stop the stumpy cartridge so it lies in the front of the carrier. In deeping process, a lot of metal is removed between the "horns". By reexamination I see that when the cartridge is stripped off the carrier, it moves about 3/10 of an inch then the case rim contacts the horn extention on left side at about the 7:00 o'clock position. At the same time the case has risen enough to not be held by the right wall or the port. If the cartridge rim gets bumped by horn extention on the left side, it could (maybe) bump the head of the case to the right. I just took maybe 10/1000 out of the carrier behind the left horn in about the 7:00 o'clock position. I stopped outside and cycled 10 rounds through it without a bobble. Was this 'live-fire'? OLG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warden Callaway Posted August 5, 2015 Share Posted August 5, 2015 Was this 'live-fire'? OLG No, Thunderstorms moving in. I'll give it a live fire test tomorrow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Original Lumpy Gritz Posted August 5, 2015 Share Posted August 5, 2015 OK-Stay dry. OLG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cheyenne Culpepper 32827 Posted August 5, 2015 Share Posted August 5, 2015 ahhhh, thas why my Spurs have an added block of metal just below the port..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Awful Close Posted August 5, 2015 Share Posted August 5, 2015 Widder, I had a similar problem with my stock 32-20 Marlin when I first started. Since I wanted to prevent mixing up empty 32H&R cases with 32-20's, I purchased new nickel 32-20 cases to use. Unfortunately the only manufacturer at that time was Remington. The Remingtons would all cycle but often I had to work the lever harder. I threw out the Remingtons and bought starline, the problem went away. Years later I learned that the Remington cases were actually longer than Starline. I'm wondering if your dummy loads are the correct size and have never "grown" longer versus regular cases that have seen a lot of shooting and may be just a little bit too long. Were the case lengths checked prior to loading? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pleasant , SASS #25245 L Posted August 5, 2015 Share Posted August 5, 2015 Widder, Unpleasant said he would suggest checking first: Anything restricting firing pin. Correct head space / scaring on face of bolt. Imperfection in the chamber wall. Pleasant Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warden Callaway Posted August 5, 2015 Share Posted August 5, 2015 21 for 21. Thanks, OLG, you made me go back and rethink where the bump could be coming from. That scant little change made the difference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Original Lumpy Gritz Posted August 5, 2015 Share Posted August 5, 2015 Fantastic OLG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Widder, SASS #59054 Posted August 5, 2015 Author Share Posted August 5, 2015 Fantastic indeed. Warden did a good job setting up HIS Marlin to feed the C45S round and Lumpy taking the time to recognize how to help cure a gremlin. Nice rifle Warden... ..........Widder Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warden Callaway Posted August 5, 2015 Share Posted August 5, 2015 Well, the last exchange of messages from Widder, he suggested taking a little more from the saddle but not being in his hands, he couldn't tell me from where to take it. We're off on another adventure right now but I may make a short video of the carrier and compare it to a standard 45 Colt carrier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warden Callaway Posted August 6, 2015 Share Posted August 6, 2015 Here is a video of the standard vs modified carrier. Sorry for the bad lighting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Original Lumpy Gritz Posted August 6, 2015 Share Posted August 6, 2015 WC-Is it the 'valley' of the lever groove on the carrier, or the high point to the left(out-board)of that 'valley' that the metal is removed? OLG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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