Noah Cash Posted July 20, 2015 Share Posted July 20, 2015 Hilda Billie's rifle went down this past weekend at a shoot, with the lower extractor tab broken off the bolt face. Now I need to get it back up, and need advise /input. Can these tabs / extractors be rebuilt by welding and re forming and hold up to be reliable? I hear that there is someone who cuts / slots the bolt and replaces this 1 piece extractor/ bolt with a removable or replaceable extractor tab. If so who? and contact info if you have it. Would we be better off to get a factory replacement bolt? She has a back up Marlin and a couple of 92's, but really want this '73 up and running again. Thanks in advance for your help and information. I / We appreciate it! KB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACKFOOT SASS #11947 Posted July 20, 2015 Share Posted July 20, 2015 The cartridge support tab on the bolt can be repaired by either welding and machining or by milling a slot and pining a support tab in the slot. If the rifle is not properly timed the tab will break again. Check some of the smiths in the Cowboy Chronical for information on repair, or check with a local smith who does such work. Blackfoot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josey Kidd Posted July 20, 2015 Share Posted July 20, 2015 Check with Joe Brisco at Cowboy Shooters Supply. JK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Most Wanted Posted July 20, 2015 Share Posted July 20, 2015 I've welded a few of my own and it will probably out last the gun. But if you can't do the weld yourself I'd send it out for the insert. Lassiter and Three Cut are a couple people I know that do it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hurricane Deck 100366 Posted July 20, 2015 Share Posted July 20, 2015 Emphasizing don't forget to have the timing fixed or you'll end up back in the same spot! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hud McCoy Posted July 20, 2015 Share Posted July 20, 2015 Long Hunter, Lassiter and Cody Conagher do an awesome job and the milled out welded piece that they do is better than the Uberti original. When you close your lever and see where the bolt meets the barrel you will see a recess top and bottom that the bolt marries into, it is important to keep that cleaned out or you will continue to break or bend the lower tab. I use a dental pick in those areas. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933 Posted July 20, 2015 Share Posted July 20, 2015 Lassiter, Jim Bowie, Palo Verde, Brisco. Lots of people repair lower tabs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Photo Shooter Posted July 20, 2015 Share Posted July 20, 2015 KB, Jim Bowie is now offering a replacement bolt for the Uberti 1873. He installed one in my rifle a couple of months ago and it is running great! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noah Cash Posted July 21, 2015 Author Share Posted July 21, 2015 Thanks guys, this is a Longhunter rifle so a quick call to them and the bolt only needs to be sent in. It'll be on the way first thing tomorrow.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monco Posted July 21, 2015 Share Posted July 21, 2015 Timing is not the only reason the tab breaks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACKFOOT SASS #11947 Posted July 21, 2015 Share Posted July 21, 2015 Timing is not the only reason the tab breaks. Will you discuss it a bit? I know it is not an answer to the original post but discussion might be beneficial. Blackfoot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noah Cash Posted July 22, 2015 Author Share Posted July 22, 2015 I also would appreciate further discussion. Hilda Billie and I are NOT high speed shooters and the rifle is only 2 years or so old. She seldom shoots on bad weather of which we have a lot of from November to April, so overall I know the rifle is not worn excessively, and it was tuned by Longhunter when we bought it. I don't believe we have used it enough to wear out anything and the short stroke installed by L/H so I fully trust his work. What else might have caused this issue? I will watch the crud build up in the lower slot that the tab fits in, but that didn't appear to be excessively dirty either. Any other suggestions would be appreciated! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smokestack SASS#87384 Posted July 22, 2015 Share Posted July 22, 2015 If your extractor is too heavy and or too long. It will cause the bolt to ride up as you close it jamming the tab into the back of the rim instead of under it. Most bent tabs are bent downward if it were due to bad timing they would bend upward. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smokestack SASS#87384 Posted July 22, 2015 Share Posted July 22, 2015 Double tap.😳 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Major E A Sterner #12916 Posted July 22, 2015 Share Posted July 22, 2015 KB, Jim Bowie is now offering a replacement bolt for the Uberti 1873. He installed one in my rifle a couple of months ago and it is running great! I looked on the C&I website and didn't see it listed,Any idea what he charges for the new bolt? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jackaroo, # 29989 Posted July 22, 2015 Share Posted July 22, 2015 Roy's Creek Dan repairs these, check with him in OK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Muerto Negro Posted July 22, 2015 Share Posted July 22, 2015 I looked on the C&I website and didn't see it listed,Any idea what he charges for the new bolt? If you have a new style rifle then you also need to get a firing pin extension. He puts in his extractor. About $190 shipped . EMN Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
One Eyed Sam Posted July 22, 2015 Share Posted July 22, 2015 I have a 1873 that appears to have the bolt tab bent or broken. Haven't taken it apart yet because I want to wait for the gunsmith tools I ordered from Brownell's. I have been told that for a bent bolt tab you can remove it an file it down to fix it. But I have not seen a picture of a bent bolt tab, only a broken one. Internet searches have not been fruitful. Anyone have a picture of a bent bolt tab and what to file? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boggus Deal #64218 Posted July 22, 2015 Share Posted July 22, 2015 I have a 1873 that appears to have the bolt tab bent or broken. Haven't taken it apart yet because I want to wait for the gunsmith tools I ordered from Brownell's. I have been told that for a bent bolt tab you can remove it an file it down to fix it. But I have not seen a picture of a bent bolt tab, only a broken one. Internet searches have not been fruitful. Anyone have a picture of a bent bolt tab and what to file? Two things. First, from what I have seen, if it is bent down, straightening and/or filing it for clearance usually don't work for too long. It bent for a reason and needs that repaired as well. Second, and don't take this the wrong way, but if you aren't sure what part to file on, don't! Get it to a professional and save yourself some money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monco Posted July 22, 2015 Share Posted July 22, 2015 Without getting too much into the specific components and how they can each contribute to the cartridge tab being bent downward (most common), we should also entertain that this can most simply be caused by forces generated by normal system operation as the cartridge seats in the chamber and the extractor springs over the rim.....in our application. Some rifles might exhibit more or less of these forces by comparison due to many small factors such as extractor stiffness, improperly shaped or length of extractor nose, improperly shaped or non existent bevel at the upper leading edge of the tab, variances in the extractor and tab notches in the barrel, slight bolt angle deflection/misalignment in the receiver while working the action, various manufacturers/rim cross section shapes of cartridge brass, or all of those in some combination. As with many systems found in firearms, there is a balance between these components and their interaction with each other. Think of the extractor and cartridge tab acting as a funnel guiding the bolt onto the cartridge rim as it seats at which point the extractor climbs over the rim snaps down over the top of the rim. I suppose one could say that the "timing" of the extractor nose interaction with the cartridge rim relative to the cartridge tab as the cartridge seats in the chamber could be considered "timing" as well as the timing between the carrier and bolt position. In my opinion, nature of this type of system even with all components within spec combined with the very high action speeds as seen in competition short stroked rifles, introduces high forces that the cartridge tab must endure for every cycle of the action when a cartridge is present that possibly was not considered during the design and/or material selection of the bolt. Another point, all of the bent or broken tabs I have seen, seemed to originate with a crack forming where the upper surface of the tab and the bolt face meet. There is a limit to the radius that can be machined between those surfaces but naturally the largest possible radius with all other things equal will likely provide the strongest part. Is this design feature maximized and consistent while considering various manufacturers of brass? I don't know. Therefore, if materials and design are not up to this repeated level of abuse found in our competition rifles, the tab can fail over time even if tuned properly. I have not done any testing of the materials Uberti uses and cannot comment on how consistent they are but I can confidently say that even with rifles properly tuned by many competent gunsmiths and do it yourself cowboys, the tab can and does break when competitively used in our game. In this case, I feel that it all boils down to the right design and/or material for the application. The material and design currently used in the factory bolt is probably more than adequate for a rifle used in a non competitive non short stroked rifle market. In other words, I believe many of us are pushing our equipment beyond the capabilities of OEM materials and design....."That's Racing". To mitigate this we introduce modifications that can endure those forces such as machining the bolts to accept tool steel pinned/welded inserts as well as verifying that all components are "blue printed" to some known effective and reliable specification. Alternatively, I've heard a rumor that Uberti might have made changes to either the design, material, or both to new bolts to better suit our market but I don't know anything on that with any certainty. Good Luck and may your cartridge tab stay with you! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Palo Verde, SASS # 56522 Posted July 22, 2015 Share Posted July 22, 2015 . Second, and don't take this the wrong way, but if you aren't sure what part to file on, don't! Get it to a professional and save yourself some money. yep, good advise. Some times it is cheaper to just pay the money. Remember, an education can be an expensive thing. Had a guy come in with this problem and he had filed a lot of clearance for the bent lower tab into the bottom of the hole in the carrier mortise that the bolt retracts through. Obviously, a costly error the bottom of a small caliber breech bolt bears on this surface -- and that weren't where the problem was anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Palo Verde, SASS # 56522 Posted July 22, 2015 Share Posted July 22, 2015 Monoco: "Alternatively, I've heard a rumor that Uberti might have made changes to either the design, material, or both to new bolts to better suit our market but I don't know anything on that with any certainty." Yep, Rather than correct the deficient problem in their design and materials, Uberti is now producing a small caliber breech bolt with a replaceable "lower tab insert" such as they have seen some American smiths do to repair Uberti bolts. I have little faith in Uberti's "replace the part when it bends" correction to their problem. Seems the "solution" would be to correct design and materials so the tab does not fail so readily. The new insert is held in with a single pin and: "has Uberti ever produced two parts that were dimensionally the same?" I believe they have had some good advise from American gunsmiths as to how they might fix their lower tab problem, but they appear to have chosen not to pursue these suggestions in favor of a system with a replaceable single-pin insert that, as I said, I have little faith in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monco Posted July 22, 2015 Share Posted July 22, 2015 Monoco: "Alternatively, I've heard a rumor that Uberti might have made changes to either the design, material, or both to new bolts to better suit our market but I don't know anything on that with any certainty." Yep, Rather than correct the deficient problem in their design and materials, Uberti is now producing a small caliber breech bolt with a replaceable "lower tab insert" such as they have seen some American smiths do to repair Uberti bolts. I have little faith in Uberti's "replace the part when it bends" correction to their problem. Seems the "solution" would be to correct design and materials so the tab does not fail so readily. The new insert is held in with a single pin and: "has Uberti ever produced two parts that were dimensionally the same?" I believe they have had some good advise from American gunsmiths as to how they might fix their lower tab problem, but they appear to have chosen not to pursue these suggestions in favor of a system with a replaceable single-pin insert that, as I said, I have little faith in. Thanks Palo, It will be interesting to see how that plan pans out and I agree with your assessment 100%. Even so, I am interested in seeing the updated parts. Do you know if this is going to be a service item or supplied in OEM rifles or both and when the bolts will be available? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Palo Verde, SASS # 56522 Posted July 22, 2015 Share Posted July 22, 2015 Monoco, I don't want to redirect this guys thread, but..... There are a few of the new b bolts in this country, and they are in the latest mfg of rifles but I do not believe there are any replacement inserts here as of this date although some are expected. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
One Eyed Sam Posted July 23, 2015 Share Posted July 23, 2015 Two things. First, from what I have seen, if it is bent down, straightening and/or filing it for clearance usually don't work for too long. It bent for a reason and needs that repaired as well. Second, and don't take this the wrong way, but if you aren't sure what part to file on, don't! Get it to a professional and save yourself some money. Boggus Deal, No I did not take it the wrong way. I don't know yet if I will even try to fix it. I may send it to Longhunter as others have recommended. I was hoping for a picture of what I might find when I disassemble it. I to make sure that that is the problem. That way I can determine if I need to send the bolt or the whole rifle. All, Thanks for your responses. This has been a thread that has been very informative. One Eyed Sam Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boggus Deal #64218 Posted July 23, 2015 Share Posted July 23, 2015 Boggus Deal, No I did not take it the wrong way. I don't know yet if I will even try to fix it. I may send it to Longhunter as others have recommended. I was hoping for a picture of what I might find when I disassemble it. I to make sure that that is the problem. That way I can determine if I need to send the bolt or the whole rifle. All, Thanks for your responses. This has been a thread that has been very informative. One Eyed Sam Unfortunately, I have sent the one broken bolt I have off to get repaired. Thankfully, it wasn't my bolt. I picked it up broken to have as a spare. I'll post a pic later of a good bolt, if that helps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graydog Posted July 23, 2015 Share Posted July 23, 2015 I sent my bolt to Pioneer Guns. Joe did a weld and had it back to me in a week. Works great and their great people to work with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
One Eyed Sam Posted July 23, 2015 Share Posted July 23, 2015 Boggus Deal, Thanks for your reply. A picture of a good bolt would be great. Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boggus Deal #64218 Posted July 23, 2015 Share Posted July 23, 2015 Here is a 45 bolt stolen off of Brownell's website. http://www.brownells.com/rifle-parts/bolt-parts/breech-bolts-blocks/breech-block-45-cal-prod44270.aspx Look at the lower front lip. They aren't as bad about breaking on large caliber guns but I have heard of a couple. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wyatt Posted July 24, 2015 Share Posted July 24, 2015 FYI - VTI just received and is shipping the new bolts with the replaceable tabs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noah Cash Posted July 25, 2015 Author Share Posted July 25, 2015 Wyatt, thanks for the heads -up. I just ordered one as a spare for her gun. KB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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