What if?

[Slowhand Bob, 24229]

I have read a couple of accounts that claim Winchester developed a version of what was to become the 1876 before designing the 1873 model?? Two thoughts here, what became of that early prototype and had they gone ahead with it first, would the '76 now be remembered as 'the gun that won the west'? It would have been a big advantage for guys out in the wilderness to have a true rifle powered round capable of being a repeater. The .45Colt pistol with its 7 1/2" inch barrel already covered that power range well enough without sticking another pistol round in a rifle.

[G W Wade]

Believe 44/40 predates 45 colt. don't think 1873 ever produced in 45 colt (original) Excuse my ignorance if I am wrong GW

[James Kelly]

In my Humble & Possibly Mistaken Opinion, 19th century guys were not as hungry for magnum loads as today's hunter.

The '76 might maybe have been too heavy for convenient use.

Seems to me it was the '73, and not the '76, that was the most popular deer rifle until the 1894 came out.

 

I have been impressed by 1865-67 accounts in Harpers Weekly where men shot both Indians and Buffalo with the wimpy little .44 rimfire Henry. The book "Yellowstone Kelly" says the same, he used a .44rf "Henry" carbine (I would say Improved Henry, or Winchester Model 1866) to kill at least one Buffalo & various other large 2- & 4-footed creatures.

 

The 19th Century was an entirely different world, not only physically but in people's attitudes.

If you are old enough perhaps your Grampa told you a few things. Mine did.

[James Kelly]

I believe the Colt 1873 first came out in .45 Colt, for the cavalry. The round itself was designed in 1872.

 

It got the name "Long Colt" after Smith & Wesson competed with the .45 cal Scofield, which used a slightly shorter cartridge of the same diameter. Real fun for the Army to keep the ammo straight, so Colt eventually kept the .45LC cartridges for commercial use & the shorter Scofield .45 for the cavalry. I believe Smith & Wesson called it ".45 S&W" recently, when they made a limited rerun of Scofield, or Model 3, revolvers.

 

The only (or at least major) pre-1873 .44 anything was the .44 rimfire Henry, about 28 grains of powder, 200 or 220 grain bullet. My Ballard is that caliber.

There was also a .44 Henry centerfire.

Later, Winchester developed the .44-40 centerfire, 40 grains of black, for use in the Model 1873 lever-action.

 

Some years later Colt decided to make, I think the Frontier revolver, in .44-40 to go along with Winchester's rifle. The two companies developed (an enforced) polite agreement, you don't make rifles & I won't make pistols.

[Ramblin Gambler]

Technically, I don't think it's correct to call it 45LC, it's just 45 colt, and you have to know the short colt is something different. It's kind of like when we talk about vaqueros and we call them Old Models or New Models. Technically, the old models are just vaqueros, and the new ones are New Model Vaqueros. We just throw the "Old Model" and "Long" in there to add a little more specificity.

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

Yep, take a look at the head stamp on .45 Colt ammo. It's never stamped .45 Long Colt, as far as I have ever seen. The SAAMI industry standards all refer to .45 Colt. That is the official name.

 

No, a big powerful rifle round lever action just had fewer reasons-for-being in the early old West, with game still pretty populous and the pistol caliber rounds being sufficient for filling the pot, killing the varmints, running off whoever needed to leave the ranch, killing a beef for butchering, etc. There were already powerful rifles in various single-shot configurations. So, even if the 1876 had come out earlier, it would not have displaced the existing 1866 and Henry rifles from being "enough gun to get the job done", and faster to boot.

 

Sorta like the fact that AR-15 platform shooting 5.56mm is enough gun to get many jobs done today, and much easier to shoot well, than, say, M14s and other large semi-auto rifles. There's a place for bigger guns, just not as large a volume market.

 

Good luck, GJ

[Trailrider #896]

It is entirely possible that Winchester created a prototype of a large-frame toggle-link rifle, and that it might have pre-dated introduction of the M1873. However, the '73 was a natural progression from the Henry and Improved Henry (aka the Model 1866...after the '73 was introduced). The major difference was the introduction of the .44 WCF (aka .44-40), plus the non-dovetailed side plates held on with a screw, and the iron frame instead of the gunmetal (bronze/brass) for the frame. The .45 Colt's cartridge was introduced for the (then) new "strap pistol" designed for the Army in the same time period as the '73 rifle. If Winchester even had access to the .45 Colt round, which was an Army round at first, I would bet they quickly found that a combination of the copper (actually gilding metal) cartridge case, the narrow rim, and black powder fouling, would have quickly caused failure-to-extract. If the '73 had been chambered for the .45 Colt, the first customers would have been Army officers and those NCO's that could afford the rifle. If they experienced problems, the facts would have been quickly published in the Army & Navy Journal, and Winchester's reputation would have been badly damaged. The .44 WCF (.44-40) has a larger rim and the tapered bottleneck case feeds and extracts reliably. Yes, power was desireable. But firepower was moreso back then. The .44-40 was nearly half-again as powerful as the .44 Henry rimfire. (BTW, the .44 Henry central fire didn't come out until much later, for Model '66's sold to South American governments after the turn of the 20th Century). Yes, Winchester desired to provide a rifle with more power...closer to the Army's .45-70 Gov't. The toggle link action, however, just couldn't handle the .45-70-405. So the '76 came out in .45-75-350 and later the .45-60-300, etc. In large part, the '76 wasn't a roaring success. Buffalo hunters preferred their single-shot boomers, and for others, the lighter weight and greater magazine capacity was preferred. Marlin secured a brief lead with a rifle that could handle the military cartridge. Winchester caught up when they had John Moses Browning design the M1886, which they later scaled down to the '92 to handle the .44-40.

[Nasty Newt # 7365]

There was a Model 1868, that fired more powerful cartridges. It didn't really get off the ground, though they did sell a few muskets overseas.

[Blackey Cole]

You have two different end goals one for each rifle. The 73 goal was to build a rifle that would fire the Cowboys revolver ammo. Why some for hunting but mostly for defense that way his ammo belt carried one ammo that would fire in either firearm. That way if they only had the revolver when caught they had plenty of usable ammo. But before this they fill part of the belt with rifle and the rest with revolver many lost the war because they ran out of revolver ammo but still had rifle ammo. After the 73 became popular they had more revolver ammo plus if the rifle needed reloading and it was at hand there was ammo for it on the belt also.

 

Now the larger frame 76 was designed for those that wanted or needed a rifle round in a familiar gun. Same with the Marlin 94/95 models.

[Charlie Whiskers]

I believe the Colt 1873 first came out in .45 Colt, for the cavalry. The round itself was designed in 1872.

 

It got the name "Long Colt" after Smith & Wesson competed with the .45 cal Scofield, which used a slightly shorter cartridge of the same diameter. Real fun for the Army to keep the ammo straight, so Colt eventually kept the .45LC cartridges for commercial use & the shorter Scofield .45 for the cavalry. I believe Smith & Wesson called it ".45 S&W" recently, when they made a limited rerun of Scofield, or Model 3, revolvers.

 

The only (or at least major) pre-1873 .44 anything was the .44 rimfire Henry, about 28 grains of powder, 200 or 220 grain bullet. My Ballard is that caliber.

There was also a .44 Henry centerfire.

Later, Winchester developed the .44-40 centerfire, 40 grains of black, for use in the Model 1873 lever-action.

 

Some years later Colt decided to make, I think the Frontier revolver, in .44-40 to go along with Winchester's rifle. The two companies developed (an enforced) polite agreement, you don't make rifles & I won't make pistols.

 

According to Winchester history in Wikipedia, handgun (HG) cartridges; 38/357,44 special/44 mag,45Colt (or 45 Long Colt); Winchester didn't build any HG cartridge rifles for decades after the model 92 was phased out and were then chambered in the model 94. If I remember right my gunsmith told me Winchester didn't start building the rifles in 45 Colt until the early 1970's.



[Lone Dog, SASS #20401]

or 80s