Boulder Canyon Bob# 32052L Posted June 27, 2015 Share Posted June 27, 2015 I've been reloading 44-40 for probably 10 years and just started running into this. About 20 percent of my loads are longer than 1.6 and won't cycle. After LOTS of searching I found that sometimes the Redding Profile Crimp pulls the bullet back out of the case. I use One Shot Lube on the cases and lube the crimp die too. I talked to Redding today and they said make sure all cases are the same length. Sounded reasonable, but before I did all of them I measured the longest and shortest and tried both lengths, same results, some are fine some are too long. If I run them through the seater, but not the crimp die they turn out fine. This has happened with lubed cast bullets and coated bullets as well. I ordered a Lee Factory Crimp Die to see if that helps, but used one before and had similar problems. Any help would be appreciated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Driftwood Johnson, SASS #38283 Posted June 27, 2015 Share Posted June 27, 2015 Howdy How much are you compressing the powder? Sometimes if you are compressing it a lot, and seating and crimping in two separate steps, the powder can de-compress and push the bullet out a bit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cliff Hanger #3720LR Posted June 27, 2015 Share Posted June 27, 2015 Also clean the crimp die. I have always lube the bottleneck cases..sized then and then removed the lube by tumbling about 15 minutes in clean media. If you are lubing the crimp die, the lube may be creating a solid seal and the bullet is being pulled up while trying to break the suction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lefty Dude, SASS # 51223 Posted June 27, 2015 Share Posted June 27, 2015 Why would you lube the crimp die ? It gets enough lube from the bullets possible left over surface lube. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boulder Canyon Bob# 32052L Posted June 27, 2015 Author Share Posted June 27, 2015 To answer all of the questions 1. I'm loading Red Dot, so no compression. 2 and 3. I started out NOT lubing the crimp die and started having this problem, the instructions that come with the die from Redding state to lube the die every few rounds, so I tried that. Thanks for the thoughts Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Original Lumpy Gritz Posted June 27, 2015 Share Posted June 27, 2015 Is this a new lot of bullets?? When was the last time you confirmed your bullet's dia. with a micrometer? X2 on cleaning the die! OLG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boulder Canyon Bob# 32052L Posted June 27, 2015 Author Share Posted June 27, 2015 This is a new lot of bullets, but I've had the same problem before, but not as bad. I'll check the diameter of them as soon as I get out to my reloading room again. The new ones are coated and the older ones were lubed. Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Original Lumpy Gritz Posted June 27, 2015 Share Posted June 27, 2015 Anytime you open a new box of bullets-Confirm the dia. What are they 'coated' with? OLG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tex Jones, SASS 2263 Posted June 27, 2015 Share Posted June 27, 2015 This is a new lot of bullets, but I've had the same problem before, but not as bad. I'll check the diameter of them as soon as I get out to my reloading room again. The new ones are coated and the older ones were lubed. Thanks I loaded some of the coated bullets from SNS in 44-40 recently with no problems. Why don't you try to crimp with an RCBS or Dillon die, or has the issue occurred with those as well? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Boy Posted June 27, 2015 Share Posted June 27, 2015 I'm a 1st time user of 44 WCF's for only an old Ballard rifle and COAL is critical. With the Lee seating die and bullets that have a crimp groove - the bullets seat exactly and a nice roll crimp is applied. I can only offer - use bullets with a crimp groove and your COAL will be crimped exactly for every reload Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boulder Canyon Bob# 32052L Posted June 27, 2015 Author Share Posted June 27, 2015 Lumpy, the bullets are coated with "High Tech Super Coat" bullet coating. Tex, I'm in the process of cutting all my brass to equal length and will try the Dillon dies. Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boulder Canyon Bob# 32052L Posted June 27, 2015 Author Share Posted June 27, 2015 John Boy, the bullets do have a crimp ring, the problem is the crimp die pulls some of the bullets out .020 when removed from the die. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Litl Red Posted June 27, 2015 Share Posted June 27, 2015 If the cartridges that fail to cycle are the ones with bullets pulled back out making the OAL too long, then... Aw heck, bottom line is that bullets being pulled back out by a crimping die is just wrong. Case tension and adequately located and deep crimps should hold a bullet in place. As with almost everything in reloading, there are a number of things that contribute to every little detail. So what provides adequate tension and proper crimping? You've already mentioned a couple. Sizing the brass starts the process. If yours has work aged over use, it's possible it's not sizing down enough. Of course, sizing down enough won't matter if you're expanding too much. And the work aged brass won't matter depending on your sizing and expanding. It'd make sense to inspect your dies and verify they're still adjusted where they were when they produced good ammo. Over the years, I've found a sizing die that had loosened in a Dillon tool head but then stuck before loosening more. The Lee dies that're held by O-rings history has convinced me to lock 'em another way. etc. Looking real close at the crimps on the cartridges with pulled-out bullets should tell you something. Short cases would have less crimp, and less resistance when the bullets were being pulled back out. Decent calipers should be able to put numbers on what you have going. It's pretty hard for most crimpers to make the same crimp on different length cases. But it might happen if the die isn't solidly locked. etc Annealing might be useful here. What can be deduced is those new bullets are small in comparison to your chamber. Your chamber decides how large the spent brass is, and it's large enough not to grip those slugs tightly enough thanks to your sizer/expander. And the crimp location relative to the crimp groove isn't helping either. BTW, crimp grooves that're real deep and/or wide can defeat good crimps that wind up with no lead under the crimp. And it should be obvious the tension of case on bullet is "adequate" since for your die to grip the bullet strong enough to pull it out it took resistance to create that grip and there isn't anywhere to get that other than from pushing the bullet into resistance. etc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Litl Red Posted June 27, 2015 Share Posted June 27, 2015 John Boy, the bullets do have a crimp ring, the problem is the crimp die pulls some of the bullets out .020 when removed from the die. Would that happen if the crimp bit into lead? Do you see some cases with less crimp? Where did the bullet wind up relative to the crimp. Too wide a crimp groove? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boulder Canyon Bob# 32052L Posted June 27, 2015 Author Share Posted June 27, 2015 The crimps all appear to be the same, I measured the bullet diameter, they're supposed to be .427. they all measure .4285 to .429. It does it with both the .4285 and .429 bullets. I can usually "feel" the bullet being pulled out when cycling my 550 Dillon. Some times they look to be seated right in the grove and are still too long. I'm in the process of trimming all of my cases to the same length (it's going to be a LONG day).I can see a mark on the top of the bullet on one side where it's obvious something is contacting it off center. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Original Lumpy Gritz Posted June 27, 2015 Share Posted June 27, 2015 Go to a roll crimp and no more issues. The 'profile crimp' die is just a taper crimp in Redding packing is all. BTW: Whats "High Tech Super Coat"? Sounds like salesman's double-speak to me...... OLG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bugler Posted June 28, 2015 Share Posted June 28, 2015 Lots of good suggestions from very knowledgeable people....I have been using a set of Redding dies in 44-40 with my Dillon 550 and have NO problems ever. I did not know that Dillon offered dies in 44-40. I have never used a Factory Crimp die as I have had no need to. I do shoot 44-40 a lot and cast my own bullets as well. My other investment was a Wilson case gauge which has been invaluable to me in die setup as well as double checking my rounds before a match. Never have I trimmed to length any of my 44-40 brass. I Hope you find the real problem, but is sounds like it all started when you changed bullets. Bugler Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boulder Canyon Bob# 32052L Posted June 28, 2015 Author Share Posted June 28, 2015 Thanks for all the suggestions, the problem has happened before the new coated bullets.I trimmed a bunch of my brass and went back to the seat and crimp die, after a hundred or so rounds loaded no more too long loads. I ran out of patience so go back and try the Redding crimp die. I've got a match tomorrow and needed to get some loaded. Lump that's what their WEB Site calls it. I've heard they import it from Australia. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fairshake Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 I've been shooting BP in 44 wcf since about 1973. I've been shooting the 44 wcf in SASS since 2007. I use Starline brass, RCBS Cowboy Dies, with the Redding Profile Crimp Die at the last stage. I've never had the first case with bullet movement or have I ever trimmed any of my cases. I even shoot some Winchester, RP and Starline cases mixed when shooting practice ammo with no ill results. My bullet is one that I designed and had Tom at Accurate Molds make for me. It's catalog # is 43-210B and it is taken off the Lyman 427098 design with wider and deeper lube grooves with no crimp groove. I crimp with a depth to where I have a 1.58-1.59 OAL. This puts the crimp just over the top band on the bullet. I pour my bullets from 20-1 alloy at .430 and size them at .429 with a Star sizer. My guns all have been slugged at .427 bores which is the correct standard for the caliber and are made by Uberti. They did have a QC problem some time ago where some rifles were made with 44 magnum barrel spec barrels at .430 which requires a larger bullet. The poster that stated that the Redding Profile Crimp Die is a Taper crimp die is incorrect, it's designed as a roll crimp die in the 44 wcf caliber in it's standard form. It seems that I've read where Redding will make this die in Taper crimp in the Profile design but it's a special order IIRC. I would try using another bullet before anything else and then measure all of your equipment starting with the dies to see if they are with in the correct range of the manufacturing standards. Take care David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Original Lumpy Gritz Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 "The poster that stated that the Redding Profile Crimp Die is a Taper crimp die is incorrect," That was me-I stand buy that statement! Hav'n set up more than one Dillon 550 for 44 WCF. I can state for certain that the Profile crimp is far more taper crimp than roll. Had the same bullet 'pull' issue as OP using the same die maker-Switch'd to the Lee FCD and all issues stopped. OLG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jackson Rose, SASS #45478 Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 check to see if the bullet will slip through the die above the crimping shoulder. If it is too tight it will pull your bullets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 check to see if the bullet will slip through the die above the crimping shoulder. If it is too tight it will pull your bullets. Yep, in fact crimping your coated bullet may be bulging the coating to be larger than originally manufactured diameter. A very snug slug may be getting grabbed by the Redding die as case comes out of the die. You SHOULD be able to feel drag on the downstroke as the case starts to be pulled back out of the die, if that is happening, as breaking the crimp loose when applied by the Redding PCD is a little bit of a tug. Measure the exposed part of bullet just above the crimp location before you load a few, and after you have loaded them, especially looking for the slugs that are pulled out after crimping. You could even find an inconsistent thickness of polymer coating that comes from the manufacturer being sloppy in the application (or a polymer that gets real sticky with the crimping pressure and sticks in the die). I have had concerns about switching to polymer coated bullets when there is no positive sizing applied to the finished product, so I don't have any direct experience. Just some concerns, and measurements you should take to eliminate some of the obvious problems. Good luck, GJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alabama Red Posted July 3, 2015 Share Posted July 3, 2015 I've loaded 44-40 using the Lee standard roll crimp and Lee factory crimp with no issues using Missouri bullets sized 0.429". Did run into a powder problem this weekend. I've always used Unique for my Cowboy loads. Tried some IMR4227 this weekend and had a lot of unburned powder getting in the action. This was a light load of 16 grains with the Missouri 200gr bullet. I think I'll stick with Unique. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Springfield Slim SASS #24733 Posted July 3, 2015 Share Posted July 3, 2015 That's why I like the RCBS Cowboy dies, they are cut to allow for a bit bigger cast bullets. I had no problem with standard dies with 45 Colt as it seems everything is cut large, but with 44-40 the dies really shined. Same with my 38-55, Cowboy dies. You said you see a mark on the bullets, so apparently they are hitting the inside of the die and they shouldn't. Also, the coating might be a bit more slippery then a regular cast bullet, allowing them to move. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 Posted July 3, 2015 Share Posted July 3, 2015 I've loaded 44-40 using the Lee standard roll crimp and Lee factory crimp with no issues using Missouri bullets sized 0.429". Did run into a powder problem this weekend. I've always used Unique for my Cowboy loads. Tried some IMR4227 this weekend and had a lot of unburned powder getting in the action. This was a light load of 16 grains with the Missouri 200gr bullet. I think I'll stick with Unique. Well, sure, 4227 is a really slow powder and has no significant use in cowboy match loads. If you are experimenting, go FASTER than Unique, not slower. Good luck, GJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rio Brazos Kid Posted July 3, 2015 Share Posted July 3, 2015 Bolder Canyon Bob, Most bullets have a taper in the crimp groove. This can cause the bullet to move as the case is pushed into the groove. I would suggest seating the bullet to where the case was at the extreme front of the crimp groove, and setting the seating die to straighten the flare on the case mouth, (Not crimping it), so there would be no flare on the case mouth when entering the Profile crimp die. A very heavy roll crimp can exacerbate the problem too, so, SLIGHTLY easing the roll crimp might be in order also. Give this a try and report back on the outcome. RBK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Original Lumpy Gritz Posted July 3, 2015 Share Posted July 3, 2015 I've loaded 44-40 using the Lee standard roll crimp and Lee factory crimp with no issues using Missouri bullets sized 0.429". Did run into a powder problem this weekend. I've always used Unique for my Cowboy loads. Tried some IMR4227 this weekend and had a lot of unburned powder getting in the action. This was a light load of 16 grains with the Missouri 200gr bullet. I think I'll stick with Unique. 4227 burns better when you load it at the middle of the chart, or just a bit higher, for your bullet weight It'll work just fine. OLG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boulder Canyon Bob# 32052L Posted July 3, 2015 Author Share Posted July 3, 2015 I've loaded about 300 rounds so far, just using the seat and crimp die and no problems, I did trim all of my brass. I just got my Lee FCD in the mail so I'll try that after I get the MN State Shoot off the calendar. THANKS for all the suggestions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noz Posted July 3, 2015 Share Posted July 3, 2015 4227 burns better when you load it at the middle of the chart, or just a bit higher, for your bullet weight It'll work just fine. OLG When I was loading some heavy loads I tried 4227 in several configurations and never liked the results. Finally poured out the remainder. There are many better powders out there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Original Lumpy Gritz Posted July 3, 2015 Share Posted July 3, 2015 Did the flowers like it? .44 WCF just begs for a case full of 3F Goex OLG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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