Legends and Lies of the Old West

[Mad Dog McGee]

While I enjoy watching Legends and Lies of the Old West; I can't stand it when they

use blanks in the cartridge belts in the Billy the Kid episode when he was trying to steal the two sleeping cowboys horses. Did anyone else notice things like that?

Also the stagecoach they used on the Black Bart episode looked like it was made out of plywood . I wish they would use more period correct props. MDM

 

[irish ike, SASS #43615]

If you want cheesy low cost props look at the locomotive they use in Hell on Wheels. It's so bad it even looks bad from a distance. I was told it's towed by a cable hooked to a truck!

 

It's all about cost and trying to create the perception of reality.

 

Ike

[Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933]

It's a docu-drama produced by a news station. It is not a multimillion dollar Hollyweird production. If you can't stand it, don't watch.

[Rye Miles #13621]

If you want cheesy low cost props look at the locomotive they use in Hell on Wheels. It's so bad it even looks bad from a distance. I was told it's towed by a cable hooked to a truck!

 

It's all about cost and trying to create the perception of reality.

 

Ike

The train on Hell on Wheels doesn't bother me one bit! It's a TV show for gosh sakes! There's a helluva lot more to it than the darn train!

[Nate Kiowa Jones #6765]

While I enjoy watching Legends and Lies of the Old West; I can't stand it when they

use blanks in the cartridge belts in the Billy the Kid episode when he was trying to steal the two sleeping cowboys horses. Did anyone else notice things like that?

Also the stagecoach they used on the Black Bart episode looked like it was made out of plywood . I wish they would use more period correct props. MDM

 

 

At least the side lever SXS shotgun they used was historically correct. Black Bart used a side lever SXS.

[Mad Dog McGee]

It's a docu-drama produced by a news station. It is not a multimillion dollar Hollyweird production. If you can't stand it, don't watch.

Sorry , Larsen . Didn't mean to get you upset. I was just saying that at least they could have had real looking bullets for the close up ! Thanks for your comment anyway and I really enjoy the articles by you in the CC. They are very helpful and well researched . MDM

[Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933]

I'm not upset. I just figure we should take the show for what it is. A very low budget show on a news network. I am amazed FOX even put a western oriented show in their news lineup and I am thankful they did it. They are trying to present the facts as they really were and doing a pretty good job while also making the history lesson entertaining. Turns out it has been a ratings success and there is talk of a second season. I give anything that promotes the old west a thumb's up. Whenever I use "you" in a response I don't mean the OP, I mean the generic YOU as in "you all" or yawl down south. Maybe I should pick another word.

[Driftwood Johnson, SASS #38283]

 

If you want cheesy low cost props look at the locomotive they use in Hell on Wheels. It's so bad it even looks bad from a distance. I was told it's towed by a cable hooked to a truck!

Howdy

 

I have not watched the program, but I can tell you it is a very old Hollywood tradition to have a steam locomotive pulled or pushed onto the scene. It takes hours to properly fire up a steam locomotive. It's not like starting your car.

 

On top of that, most steam locomotives today are only restored enough that they look correct from the outside. Most are not restored enough to be able to actually fire them up. That requires a whole lot more money, and a different set of regulations, including requiring the entire locomotive to be torn down completely and inspected every few years. These are Federal regulations, and they are not without reason. An improperly maintained stem locomotive is a great big pressure cooker, just looking for an opportunity to explode.

 

You would probably be surprised at how many movies are made with a cold steam locomotive being pushed into the station by a diesel engine at the back of the train. You know all those scenes where the steam is billowing out of the cylinders? It's usually steam coming out of a separate pipe from a separate boiler. Same with the smoke coming out of the smokestack. It is usually faked because it is so expensive to actually maintain a steam locomotive that can be fired up and actually pull a train.

[StirrupTrouble]

Interesting on how they made the HoW train. They couldn't find a period correct one so they built it from styrofoam and wood

 

[Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933]

Thanks for posting that video. That is neat!!! I love the effort that goes into recreating a past that has long ago ceased to be. Between these precision props and CGI it is amazing what Hollywood can do these days.

[Hurricane Deck 100366]

Seems like I read somewhere recently that there are a total of 6 period steam locomotives available for lease to productions. I think I heard it in the "behind the scenes" stuff on the 'True Grit' DVD. of those locomotives, the producing company is required to lay their own track for use, pay for shipping of the locomotive (if needed), care and maintenance etc.

 

I took away that it costs a fortune just to lease the locomotive, so it only makes sense that prop makers and cgi make up the bulk of what we see on the television. The big boy toys are relegated to the big screen.

 

I was fortunate enough to spend a few years of my life in Durango, CO where the Silverton narrow gauge railway is still in operation. It was always a treat to see her steaming into and out of Durango, but the REAL treat was seeing her steam wide open up the pass towards Silverton. Seems like there was always a thin layer of soot on the main street awnings in Durango.

[Utah Bob #35998]

TV shows like that are not made for people like us. They are made for the average Joe Sixpack. If you're a history buff it's hard to watch shows and movies with historical subjects and if you're a gun fancier it's even worse.

[Mad Dog McGee]

TV shows like that are not made for people like us. They are made for the average Joe Sixpack. If you're a history buff it's hard to watch shows and movies with historical subjects and if you're a gun fancier it's even worse.

Bob, You're so right ! Most CAS shooters notice right away when something doesn't look right. I still enjoy watching the shows though. Reality and Hollywood don't mix. And it has been going on since the black and white westerns. Cowboys get shot and go down right away, no reloads, shooting guns out of guy's hands, and it includes some of our heroes : John Wayne, Clint Eastwood etc.

Guess I shouldn't complain when I see blank cartridges in gun belt loops!

I'll continue to watch westerns as long as I live and enjoy them !!!!!!! MDM

[Rye Miles #13621]

TV shows like that are not made for people like us. They are made for the average Joe Sixpack. If you're a history buff it's hard to watch shows and movies with historical subjects and if you're a gun fancier it's even worse.

Ya mean they didn't have 92's in 1876??? I thought they called it a 92 because that's how many rounds went in the magazine!

 

On the train subject, I'm sure you've all seen where they're actually using a model train like an .027 gauge!

[Blackwater 53393]

I worked at Opryland back in 1972 and had the "pleasure" of tending to the two steam locomotives they had at the time. Seemed like one or the other of them was "down for maintenance" all of the time. To run one for a day, they started firing it up at about five in the morning. The park opened at 9:00 am. It was "Katy bar the door!" from then until 9:00 pm keeping them fueled and watered and greased and on the track. then back to the barn for shutdown and cool of and start all over again.

 

To give you an idea, it was considered punishment to be sent over to the barn to help out with the steamers. Some of the seasonal janitorial staff would be sent to polish brass and clean passenger cars when they were late for work or were being reprimanded.

[Rye Miles #13621]

Interesting stuff Blackwater!

[Driftwood Johnson, SASS #38283]

 

I worked at Opryland back in 1972 and had the "pleasure" of tending to the two steam locomotives they had at the time. Seemed like one or the other of them was "down for maintenance" all of the time. To run one for a day, they started firing it up at about five in the morning. The park opened at 9:00 am. It was "Katy bar the door!" from then until 9:00 pm keeping them fueled and watered and greased and on the track. then back to the barn for shutdown and cool of and start all over again.

 

And that, boys and girls, is why diesels replaced steam locomotives. It was the required maintenance of the steamers that killed them.

 

Besides the fact that a steam engine is an external combustion engine, with the inefficiency that comes with that. Fuel is burned in the firebox attached to the boiler, then steam is siphoned off the boiler to drive the pistons. Not a very efficient use of fuel. An internal combustion engine like a gas engine or a diesel burns the fuel directly in the cylinder to drive the piston. Much more efficient use of fuel.

 

But it was not inefficiency that killed the steam engine, fuel was still cheap back then. It was the fact that they required so much maintenance. Ever see those photos of the engineer oiling the drive bearings with a long spouted oil can? That had to be done at the end of every single run, because the bearings were exposed to dirt and grit and cinders. That was just the tip of the ice berg, maintenance-wise.

 

With a diesel you could leave it idling all night, did not have to start it up again every day. Even if you did have to start it up, it did not take hours to get a good head of steam up.

 

With diesels you could run multiple engines with just one crew in the cab of one engine, the way you always see it today. The separate units are all wired up so one engineer drives them all. With a steamer, if you needed a second engine as a helper, or double heading, each engine required its own crew. Nobody had devised a way to run the complex controls of a steam engine remotely. Much more expensive to pay multiple crews.

 

Then there is torque. The motors of a dielsel-electric locomotive develop high torque at low speeds. Terrific for getting a long, heavy train rolling. Ever see movies of a steam engine spinning its drive wheels while it tried to start a train? Because there is no reduction gearing on a typical rod engine, the steam engine does not develop high torque until it is moving at high speed. Not very good for starting long, heavy trains. That's why their drivers often spun when they started up, the wheels lost their traction and just spun, not providing much drawbar pull.

 

P.S. Oh yeah, I forgot about water stops. The tender (sometimes mistakenly called the 'coal car') behind the locomotive did not just carry fuel. Two thirds of it was a big water tank to replenish the water that had boiled away as steam. If a steam locomotive traveled very far, it would use up the supply of water in the tender. So it had to stop at a water tower to replenish the supply in the tender. Remember what I said about steam locomotives exploding? That is what happened if the water level in the boiler got too low. The slope sheet (the front of the firebox) was exposed to the heat of the firebox, but it was kept cool by the water on the other side. If the water level in the boiler dipped a little bit too low, the slope sheet could begin to fail. If it was breached, thousands of gallons of hot water would flash over instantly to steam, creating either a spectacular explosion, or rocketing the boiler a quarter mile down the track. Usually scalding the crew to death in the process.

[Cleburne, SASS # 39597]

I'm not upset. I just figure we should take the show for what it is. A very low budget show on a news network. I am amazed FOX even put a western oriented show in their news lineup and I am thankful they did it. They are trying to present the facts as they really were and doing a pretty good job while also making the history lesson entertaining. Turns out it has been a ratings success and there is talk of a second season. I give anything that promotes the old west a thumb's up. Whenever I use "you" in a response I don't mean the OP, I mean the generic YOU as in "you all" or yawl down south. Maybe I should pick another word.

 

C'mon Pettifogger, it's y'all, not yawl .... sceeech, spelled like that it looks like somethin' old ladies wear.

[Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933]

 

C'mon Pettifogger, it's y'all, not yawl .... sceeech, spelled like that it looks like somethin' old ladies wear.

It's actually a two masted sailing ship. Didn't think anyone that says y'all would know the difference.

[Flaco Joe]

Back to "Lies and Legends", I have seen the trailers on the website, but I don't have television and cannot watch the broadcasts. Has anyone heard about Fox making the shows available online or on DVD?

[Gold Canyon Kid #43974]

Back to "Lies and Legends", I have seen the trailers on the website, but I don't have television and cannot watch the broadcasts. Has anyone heard about Fox making the shows available online or on DVD?

Read the bookit is excellent.

[Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933]

You can find the book, but I haven't seen anyone replaying the videos yet.

 

http://www.amazon.com/Bill-OReillys-Legends-Lies-Real/dp/1627795073/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1432396721&sr=1-1&keywords=legends+and+lies+bill+o%27reilly

[H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619]

I wonder if it would be possible to build a desiel locomotive that simply *looks* like an old steam puffer.

 

Actually, I'm sure it is possible. You can make a Volkswagan look like a Shelby Cobra from the outside. Under the hood of course is a different story. I guess the real question is would be be prohibitively expensive to do so.?

[Driftwood Johnson, SASS #38283]

 

I wonder if it would be possible to build a desiel locomotive that simply *looks* like an old steam puffer.

 

Howdy HK

 

Well we have gotten pretty far afield, but the answer is not really. A modern diesel locomotive is actually a diesel-electric locomotive. A great big diesel engine under the hood turns an electric generator (or alternator) to develop electricity. The electricity drives enormous electric motors mounted on the axles which power the wheels. There is no mechanical connection between the diesel engine and the wheels. An arrangement like this is not suited to driving the very large diameter wheels of a steam locomotive.

 

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d-3InSFvtKg

 

 

It would probably be more practical to build a fake steam locomotive with just a gasoline engine or an electric motor driving the wheels. I would not be surprised if that has already been done.

[George Rodgers]

Was this filmed in New Mexico or Arizona? From the cactus, I thought it was Arizona.

[BLACKFOOT SASS #11947]

If you want a real "steam train" experiece there are several places that it can be had. Some that I have been to are:

 

Durango, Colorado

Chama, New Mexico

Palestine, Texas

 

Of course there are others, I just haven't visited them

 

Blackfoot