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Shotgun Bandit

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Went to a shoot over the weekend

 

targets were set at SASS max distance mostly 16" round

Scenarios were ok but 2 were obvious P traps

There were 23 shooters

 

There were NO Clean shooters

There were 11 Procedurals

And.........wait for it....147 Misses

I know what yer thinkin but about 10 or so of the Shooters are capable of sub 25 second stages.

So what do you say to these folks....Or do you just keep yer big mouth shut and vote with yer feet?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Howdy Bandit..

A more experienced and better shooter than me..

I think ya know him.. Longfingers..

At our local matches when that happens..

A little farther out targets...

He'll tell me..

"Slow down a little.. take a better sight picture"

It works great for him.. :huh:

I've never mastered it yet. :blush:

 

Rance ;)

Thinkin' I should listen to him :lol: :lol:

 

Reckon folks need more corners on their targets ta get the hits huh?? :D:wacko:

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If you enjoyed yourself, go back. If you didn't, don't.

 

Only one person's opinion counts...yours.

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If you enjoyed yourself, go back. If you didn't, don't.

 

Only one person's opinion counts...yours.

+1. There are a few reasons I go to a shoot and targets is only part of the equation.

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:FlagAm::FlagAm::FlagAm::FlagAm::FlagAm:

 

+1!

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What do you say to those people?

 

Something polite and move on.

 

Are they the club just over the state line from Chikago that just put up all the baffles (because they had been shut down when a 9mm slug went over a berm and onto a back porch)? The club that doesn't have any false fronts to speak of and no real "decoration"? They only had about 23 shooters last match. Pictures show they have a fair number of the small (but expensive shaped) targets but not much else.

 

Did those other shooters look like they'd shot there before?

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Well, once one of those other 23 shooters reads the SASS Wire and reads your post, you won't have to say anything to them... ;)

 

 

..........Widder

As Widder pointed out, you have already expressed your displeasure.

 

GCK question of is this normal for the club? If yes, then next step would be to vote with feet.

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If you enjoyed yourself, go back. If you didn't, don't.

 

Only one person's opinion counts...yours.

 

 

 

+1

 

Me? I would not go back. As that does not sound like my kind of fun.

 

If they asked why I have not been back. Then I would dang sure tell them.

 

 

Even if this was not normal for this club. I still would not go back for a long time.

Only real way to get your message across.

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It doesn't sound like many would have enjoyed the match. Shooting yes, match no.

However, giving constructive criticism sometimes works. Let them know your likes and dislikes of the match. And be sure to mention the P traps. It may have been a new stage writer that didn't know any better and still won't if everyone bobs their head up and down about the great time they had.

 

Just my thoughts,

BS

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What do you say to those people?

 

Something polite and move on.

 

Are they the club just over the state line from Chikago that just put up all the baffles (because they had been shut down when a 9mm slug went over a berm and onto a back porch)? The club that doesn't have any false fronts to speak of and no real "decoration"? They only had about 23 shooters last match. Pictures show they have a fair number of the small (but expensive shaped) targets but not much else.

 

Did those other shooters look like they'd shot there before?

No it was not the club yer talkin about...actually the club I think you mean has some really good matches and they average around 40 or 50 shooters

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Consider telling these people how you feel. It may or may not change anything, but if you say nothing and don't return? Do they then know why attendance is dropping? The people running the match need feedback if they are to improve things to everyone's satisfaction. A few years back I did see a match where there were complaints of this nature and they were ignored. This match is no longer held so everyone is the loser. Good Luck

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No it was not the club yer talkin about...actually the club I think you mean has some really good matches and they average around 40 or 50 shooters

How many clubs up there have huge head-high baffles up over every stage? They are something anyone would notice.

 

It would seem hard for any club to have really good matches with every stage shot in a field of baffles with no false fronts. Looked like taller target setters probably bumped their heads every so often. A local club refused to allow us to put up false fronts and the like in "their" berms and it was real hard to keep up attendance, especially when another club close by started scheduling on our established match day. How many clubs around Chikago shoot on the first weekend?

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Hi Folks,

 

One hundred forty-seven misses for 23 shooters is too many as is eleven Ps. Unless you know it is always like that, I would give them another chance, after emailing the club contact your thoughts.. The reply or lack of reply could save you a trip or encourage you to give them another chance.

 

Maybe they had a new scenario writer. I have noticed that, sometimes, in an effort to be "different," people new to scenario writing tend to get overly complicated.

 

That said, we continued to shoot a (non-SASS) match that always had small, far targets and many Ps until we moved and it was no longer a reasonable drive.

 

Regards,

 

Allie

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That gives an average of over 6 misses per shooter. I prefer to see less than 3 as an average. And that is about 1 P for every two shooters. Also too high for a really fun match.

 

So hopefully the folks would accept some polite advice. But if the folks are nice and friendly and the match is fun, okay.

 

But often, with matches like that, the folks are pretty proud of what they have done, then I would just move on.

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If you enjoyed yourself, go back. If you didn't, don't.

 

Only one person's opinion counts...yours.

 

J-BAR said it just about as good as it can be said. I shot an out of town match a couple of years ago. I had seven misses for the match. Had a blast because even though the stages were difficult, they were fun. And so were the people. I'll definitely go back.

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It doesn't sound like many would have enjoyed the match. Shooting yes, match no.

However, giving constructive criticism sometimes works. Let them know your likes and dislikes of the match. And be sure to mention the P traps. It may have been a new stage writer that didn't know any better and still won't if everyone bobs their head up and down about the great time they had.

 

Just my thoughts,

BS

+100

Tactfully discuss your concerns with the MD or club officers. It is entirely possible that the stage writer is new and made some mistakes. You have to remember great stage writers are the product of excellent mentorship and constructive criticism and they have to start somewhere. First stage I ever did was a spur of hte moment off the cuff at a monthly match. Because of target layout I indverently created a situation where more than one shooter only fired 9 of the 10 rifle rounds earning a msv for round left on the carrier. Issue wasn't apparent till we actually started shooting the stage and the fast shooters had more issues than the slower shooters. Wasn't my intention and I learned something from the experience. I would never have thought of the scenario being such a problem had it not been for the more experienced shooters exposing the flaw in the rifle sequence.

 

BTW Be prepared to have a solution and not just a complaint.

 

Also some clubs do different matches that cater to shooters that like different scenarios. Maybe you showed up at the match for those that like the targets to be more challenging. Next month the targets may be set really close and fast.

 

One of the clubs I shoot at has the pistol targets set close and fast while the rifle targets tend to be a lot farther out. Scenarios are always well written and we have a lot of fun. About every other month they have one stage that is all shotgun usually 10 targets. There is a mix of knockdowns, swingers and clay birds hanging from posts. Occasionally one stage will be a shooters choice requiring shooter to use any three main match legal guns. Some shoot 2 pistols and 1 rifle, others shoot two rifles and 1 pistol. Some even use their SG as one of the guns because it is fun. Almost to a person we compete with ourselves or a couple of close shooting buddies.

Oddly enough there are always a few clean matches even with more challenging targets. Personally I really enjoy shooting there because the people that show up make it a fun match.

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Went to a shoot over the weekend

 

targets were set at SASS max distance mostly 16" round

Scenarios were ok but 2 were obvious P traps

There were 23 shooters

 

There were NO Clean shooters

There were 11 Procedurals

And.........wait for it....147 Misses

I know what yer thinkin but about 10 or so of the Shooters are capable of sub 25 second stages.

So what do you say to these folks....Or do you just keep yer big mouth shut and vote with yer feet?

 

 

I would say only this. Remember we do this for "fun" . I'm not Gettin paid so my ONLY criteria for attendance anywhere is well, it's been said already. Personally I never complain close , far. or whatever , I'm just happy to play "cowboy".

 

 

 

 

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How many clubs up there have huge head-high baffles up over every stage? They are something anyone would notice.

 

It would seem hard for any club to have really good matches with every stage shot in a field of baffles with no false fronts. Looked like taller target setters probably bumped their heads every so often. A local club refused to allow us to put up false fronts and the like in "their" berms and it was real hard to keep up attendance, especially when another club close by started scheduling on our established match day. How many clubs around Chikago shoot on the first weekend?

Red this is the club you are talking about....http://www.bristolcowboys.com/.....And it is N O T the one I was talking about besides they shoot on the 2nd weekend . When yer shootin you don't even notice the baffles.

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I don't have any problems with targets at the SASS maximum range with 16 inch targets. This is where the fundamentals take over, get a good solid sight picture, proper trigger control and the targets will fall.

A clean match should be something to strive for and be proud of not something that should be expected. When it becomes routine it looses it's value.

As far as 'P" traps that I can't comment on because I wasn't there to shoot them.

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Well...coming from a SASS member that actually shoots...

 

A club like the one mentioned HURTS SASS...IMHO. They are not doing what it takes to grow this game...to keep the "West" alive if you will.

 

Again, my opinion, but clubs are the arms of SASS. If they are crossed, they ain't doin' much hugging.

 

Cheers!

 

Phantom

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Well...coming from a SASS member that actually shoots...

 

A club like the one mentioned HURTS SASS...IMHO. They are not doing what it takes to grow this game...to keep the "West" alive if you will.

 

Again, my opinion, but clubs are the arms of SASS. If they are crossed, they ain't doin' much hugging.

 

Cheers!

 

Phantom

 

 

This is coming from someone that wrote some GREAT STAGES and GREAT target placement for us

to shoot at this years State match. :)

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Well...coming from a SASS member that actually shoots...

 

A club like the one mentioned HURTS SASS...IMHO. They are not doing what it takes to grow this game...to keep the "West" alive if you will.

 

Again, my opinion, but clubs are the arms of SASS. If they are crossed, they ain't doin' much hugging.

 

Cheers!

 

Phantom

A rare occasion were Phantom and I are on the same page.

 

If that club continues with what was described, they will not be around long.

 

I too shoot,,, a lot.

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23 -1 that is not happy = 22 for next month

If that continues to happen, and there are others matches nearby, this cluv will fold soon enough.

An honest opinion provided concisely and nicely should be not problem to them. If they have been shooting at other matches, they will already know that they are coming up short.

I have shot at a couple of ranges that I will return to, but there are at six matches a month within 1.5 hr of my house that have great stages and shooting situations.

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If you like the people go back and enjoy yourself. Not everyone likes big and close. I know a couple of clubs where the members are really interested in long range shooting. For the most part the same shooters who win at the close and big clubs win at those clubs too the times are just slower.

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Shotgun,

 

It is always a pleasure to converse with you. I don't know a manager ,worth their salt, that doesn't appreciate feed back. Someone said. "Feedback is the Breakfast of Champions". If you would be happier with a different type match, tell them. It is up to them to do with the information what they will. I disagree with "voting with your feet" before telling the "management" what they can change to raise the quality of a particular enterprise - quietly, clearly, and respectfully.

 

I hope to shoot with you again real soon.

 

Knob Creek Drover

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Some of you guys really get me. :unsure::( A club for reasons NOT KNOWN to anyone posting on the wire including myself put on a match. One person attends and is displeased with the match and decides to complain about it on a public forum and ask the peanut gallery what they should do about.

 

For those that have shot at the club and read the wire they know this thread is about THEIR CLUB. Others are looking for clues so they can find out and strike that club from their list. Personally I hope I never know so that if I every get the chance to shoot there I will and not pass because of what I read on the wire.

 

Several of you are are really good at complaining about how the targets were set, how difficult the scenarios were and how no one got a clean match.

 

The problem is that a bunch of you are predicting the imminent doom of this club and how it casts a poor light on SASS because YOU do not like how ONE the match was presented. You have been pretty adamant that this club will soon cease to exist based on ONE PERSONS opinion. There are 22 other opinions that we do not know. Could be that the other 22 people enjoyed the match even with the misses and P's because the people they shoot with make it fun.

There are a million reasons why the match was the way it was and unless you were there and wrote the stages you have absolutely no clue as to why. Yet you have plenty of criticism to dole out to a club that after reading the comments hear probably has decided to remain silent for fear of being raked over the keyboard.

 

What if the stage writer was doing this for the first time and now has been on the wire reading some of what is posted here. If it were me I would most likely never write a stage again. As a shooter that is thinking about trying their hand at writing stages it I sure hope some of you are not around when I get up the nerve.

 

By most of your standards I am a greenhorn at CAS. However, on average I shoot a one day match 4 times a month at at least 3 different clubs year round. Works out to about 60 matches at several different clubs in the past 15 months or so. At all but one I had a great time. The one club which shall remain nameless in location because all I will ever say is that the club may or may not be in TX. Club seems to be popular and looking at posted match scores draws a pretty good crowd every month.They had great targets and well written stages but I did not have any fun because the people failed to do their part.

 

Now whom at a given club do you tell how unhappy you are when it is the people that are the problem???? I will NEVER say anything bad about said club because it is my opinion of the club and it is not the cowboy way. But I do know of at least a few other shooters that came away with the same opinion. For now I have voted with my feet. Someday I'll go back and try the club again to see it it was a fluke, but I doubt it.

 

I have shot at another club that most of you would never go back to. I can tell from this post that you would really dislike how the targets are set. However I have shot there in the past and will continue to do so because it is one of the funnest clubs I have ever shot at. Part of the fun is the challenging targets and very well written stages. However the real reason I continue to go back is because the people that shoot there make it fun. They made me feel welcome from day one. No getting to know you period, No you can't shoot on this posse because then the one of the regulars would not get to shoot with his buddies. No why aren't you shooting a tricked out 73 and a SKB because you will never be competitive with the guns you have. Only thing that mattered to the the club was that EVERYONE had fun.

 

It isn't the targets or scenarios that determine if a particular club is successful; it is the people. Club members are the ambassadors for SASS and they alone will make or break it. Clubs provide the kind of match their members want not what people that don't shoot there think they should have. Some clubs have different matches each month that allow them to cater to all the club members. Everyone is afforded the opportunity to shoot the kind of match that makes them happy. Not a one size fits all approach.

 

Makes me really sad :( and angry :angry: that that some of you cannot see that big, close, and fast is not the one size fits all answer. Yes that seems to be what the big matches offer because that is what the lightening fast, competitive, buckle wining shooters want. It is also obvious that at least some of you feel that monthlies exist solely to provide you a place to practice for the next big match.

 

Well guess what; fortunately for at least some of us that isn't true for every club. Some clubs have chosen to offer something other than big, close and fast month in and month out so that the rest of us can shoot the type of SASS matches that we like once in a while.

 

The measure of a club is not in how many people show up every month. But in the quality of the people that show up not only on match day but that take the time to be there on work day as well.

 

I read and pondered the post that Noz recently made. After reading some of the posts here I can sure as heck see why he felt that way and posted what he did. Now maybe I don't fully understood what he was trying to say, but in my mind I can sure sympathize with what I read.

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I'd have to agree with my friend the Phantom on this'n.

 

23 shooters, 11 P's and 147 misses speaks for itself. Nothing wrong with 16" plates at max distances. Yes SASS is moving in to opposite direction (generally) as it is an action sport. However, the numbers speak for themselves. If the stages were fun and engaging, perhaps that would outweigh the above.

 

Complaints without a solution...hmmm, Nothing wrong with complaints however offering a realistic solution with them is better. I can recall a few times when I was writing stages for my local club I 'tried something new' and flopped so I know how that feels. Constructive criticism is good.

Well...coming from a SASS member that actually shoots...

 

A club like the one mentioned HURTS SASS...IMHO. They are not doing what it takes to grow this game...to keep the "West" alive if you will.

 

Again, my opinion, but clubs are the arms of SASS. If they are crossed, they ain't doin' much hugging.

 

Cheers!

 

Phantom

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And there you go. It is MORE than targets, distance, chucking tommyhawks and such. Excellent points!

Some of you guys really get me. :unsure::( A club for reasons NOT KNOWN to anyone posting on the wire including myself put on a match. One person attends and is displeased with the match and decides to complain about it on a public forum and ask the peanut gallery what they should do about.

 

For those that have shot at the club and read the wire they know this thread is about THEIR CLUB. Others are looking for clues so they can find out and strike that club from their list. Personally I hope I never know so that if I every get the chance to shoot there I will and not pass because of what I read on the wire.

 

Several of you are are really good at complaining about how the targets were set, how difficult the scenarios were and how no one got a clean match.

 

The problem is that a bunch of you are predicting the imminent doom of this club and how it casts a poor light on SASS because YOU do not like how ONE the match was presented. You have been pretty adamant that this club will soon cease to exist based on ONE PERSONS opinion. There are 22 other opinions that we do not know. Could be that the other 22 people enjoyed the match even with the misses and P's because the people they shoot with make it fun.

There are a million reasons why the match was the way it was and unless you were there and wrote the stages you have absolutely no clue as to why. Yet you have plenty of criticism to dole out to a club that after reading the comments hear probably has decided to remain silent for fear of being raked over the keyboard.

 

What if the stage writer was doing this for the first time and now has been on the wire reading some of what is posted here. If it were me I would most likely never write a stage again. As a shooter that is thinking about trying their hand at writing stages it I sure hope some of you are not around when I get up the nerve.

 

By most of your standards I am a greenhorn at CAS. However, on average I shoot a one day match 4 times a month at at least 3 different clubs year round. Works out to about 60 matches at several different clubs in the past 15 months or so. At all but one I had a great time. The one club which shall remain nameless in location because all I will ever say is that the club may or may not be in TX. Club seems to be popular and looking at posted match scores draws a pretty good crowd every month.They had great targets and well written stages but I did not have any fun because the people failed to do their part.

 

Now whom at a given club do you tell how unhappy you are when it is the people that are the problem???? I will NEVER say anything bad about said club because it is my opinion of the club and it is not the cowboy way. But I do know of at least a few other shooters that came away with the same opinion. For now I have voted with my feet. Someday I'll go back and try the club again to see it it was a fluke, but I doubt it.

 

I have shot at another club that most of you would never go back to. I can tell from this post that you would really dislike how the targets are set. However I have shot there in the past and will continue to do so because it is one of the funnest clubs I have ever shot at. Part of the fun is the challenging targets and very well written stages. However the real reason I continue to go back is because the people that shoot there make it fun. They made me feel welcome from day one. No getting to know you period, No you can't shoot on this posse because then the one of the regulars would not get to shoot with his buddies. No why aren't you shooting a tricked out 73 and a SKB because you will never be competitive with the guns you have. Only thing that mattered to the the club was that EVERYONE had fun.

 

It isn't the targets or scenarios that determine if a particular club is successful; it is the people. Club members are the ambassadors for SASS and they alone will make or break it. Clubs provide the kind of match their members want not what people that don't shoot there think they should have. Some clubs have different matches each month that allow them to cater to all the club members. Everyone is afforded the opportunity to shoot the kind of match that makes them happy. Not a one size fits all approach.

 

Makes me really sad :( and angry :angry: that that some of you cannot see that big, close, and fast is not the one size fits all answer. Yes that seems to be what the big matches offer because that is what the lightening fast, competitive, buckle wining shooters want. It is also obvious that at least some of you feel that monthlies exist solely to provide you a place to practice for the next big match.

 

Well guess what; fortunately for at least some of us that isn't true for every club. Some clubs have chosen to offer something other than big, close and fast month in and month out so that the rest of us can shoot the type of SASS matches that we like once in a while.

 

The measure of a club is not in how many people show up every month. But in the quality of the people that show up not only on match day but that take the time to be there on work day as well.

 

I read and pondered the post that Noz recently made. After reading some of the posts here I can sure as heck see why he felt that way and posted what he did. Now maybe I don't fully understood what he was trying to say, but in my mind I can sure sympathize with what I read.

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