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I'm afraid I have seen the future of SASS and I'm very unsure whether I like it or not.


Noz

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One thing you all gotta understand about my evil twin Noz is, he is a very sociable fellow. SASS advertises that you come for the shooting and stay for the people. Noz lives by this. He has earned his awards but what motivates him even more than the scenarios is the opportunity to socialize before, during and after the match.

 

I was not able to attend Land Run this year. I don't know what kind of events were scheduled in addition to side matches and the awards ceremony. I just know that those matches, large and small, that provide venues for shooters to enjoy each others company...campfires, cookouts, dances, swap meets, poker nights, libation sharing, etc...will be viewed most favorably by Noz.

 

I suspect his original post may have been due to some disappointment in this regard. If 10-10-4 and big close targets are all that a match offers, his fun factor goes down. And I suspect he is not alone.

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More BEANS, Mr. Taggert? Beans on the side with onions! And ONLY Pintos will do! I'd shoot a man that put lima beans in my chili!

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But that leaves out my favorite 3 bean chili :(

 

 

 

That would make it spicy bean soup or stew. :o

 

Two main rules in chili cookoff's.

 

Red meat. No beans. <_<

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People keep talking about all this change. Like it has just came up.

 

Have been at it 11 years. And have seen very little change in that time.

 

 

Sure there has been change before that. But it is not something that have just

came up.

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Not to rock da Boat ,,, But I know at least 3 people that have joined SASS got Badges shot some QUIT ( Short of funds) Rejoined a few years latter New Numbers,,,, QUIT again due to not having time,,, They have again rejoined New Numbers) and plan to shoot this year ...

 

SO they show-up as SASS members as Nine Folk even though they are just 3...

 

Me I just hang-in-there I have been counted just once ,,, but that's alright as I is Unique ...

 

 

Jabez Cowboy

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Anyone that has seen videos of some of the first matches that eventually became SASS matches with some of the current Wild Bunch members shooting, you see a totally different CAS/SASS. Different guns, fewer guns (ie one pistol), mostly Blackhawk pistols, absolute minimal period dress, many paper targets, some steel targets, timing by stop watch, modern cowboy hats or just floppy wide brimmed hats, modern rodeo cowboy shirts if any special shirts at all, jeans for most all shooters, modern high heeled cowboy boots if boots at all, minimum or no props, no non shooting activities on the stop watch that I could see, etc. Is that the way folks want us to reorient our shoots back to the way it used to be?

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Not to rock da Boat ,,, But I know at least 3 people that have joined SASS got Badges shot some QUIT ( Short of funds) Rejoined a few years latter New Numbers,,,, QUIT again due to not having time,,, They have again rejoined New Numbers) and plan to shoot this year ...

 

SO they show-up as SASS members as Nine Folk even though they are just 3...

 

Me I just hang-in-there I have been counted just once ,,, but that's alright as I is Unique ...

 

 

Jabez Cowboy

Did you help them out and let them know they can call the office and renew with their old number?

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People keep talking about all this change. Like it has just came up.

 

Have been at it 11 years. And have seen very little change in that time.

 

 

Sure there has been change before that. But it is not something that have just

came up.

Is it possible that it's a regional thing? What I mean is that perhaps some of these "newer" folks (those with sass numbers higher than yours) started at clubs that shot the old way and are changing to the current setups. I am fortunate enough to be able to shoot at four clubs that are an hours drive and double that if I drive two. I can tell you that of those four clubs (one is non sass) all four are very different. One has very fast 10-10-4 stages with almost no movement and very close targets. Another has a lot of movement and usually a lot of shotgun targets. The non sass one has no movement and far targets. I like to shoot them all, but I have preferences as well. Maybe some people have only one club close with one style and haven't experienced others.

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Isn't chili without beans just beef stew?

 

No, it is chili. Beef stew has potatoes, mushrooms, onions, carrots, and other vegetable adulterants. :D;)

 

 

EC

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As long as there are folks that want to keep it the way it was, then you will attract only those folks that want that way. This is going to be a smaller group of participants. Nothing ever stays the same no matter how hard we try to keep it that way. Progress is always hard to those that aren't willing to adapt. Shooting sports are something that hasn't made it to the big leagues.

I have fun, and enjoy the people, and the help they give me to shoot better (too bad I don't listen so good :-) )

I will continue to shoot, miss, get P's, and other penalties, but I am going to have fun. The only thing different is I probably will do it closer to home.

 

 

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Is it possible that it's a regional thing? What I mean is that perhaps some of these "newer" folks (those with sass numbers higher than yours) started at clubs that shot the old way and are changing to the current setups. I am fortunate enough to be able to shoot at four clubs that are an hours drive and double that if I drive two. I can tell you that of those four clubs (one is non sass) all four are very different. One has very fast 10-10-4 stages with almost no movement and very close targets. Another has a lot of movement and usually a lot of shotgun targets. The non sass one has no movement and far targets. I like to shoot them all, but I have preferences as well. Maybe some people have only one club close with one style and haven't experienced others.

 

 

Could be. There are a lot of clubs around here. I shoot at 5-6 different clubs.

 

For the most part. They all still are pretty much the same as when I started.

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For Allies figures I joined Sass in Jan 2000 given #29989. After winning a free air ticket to EOT, I have been flying the pacific to play this wonderful game for 15 years at $6000 each time.?

We cannot hope to play the game in Aussie as its played here, so to all my USA cowboy friends ...you have it made pards. So much so that we, Kathouse Kelli and myself moved to stay longer here ..just to go shooting!!!

Bought a nice little place in OK to use as a base, joined OKCity gun club, home of Land Run and one of the best ranges I've seen. Not to mention the fantastic people we've met at this club.

I don't really care where the targets are, you play the game accordingly and you'll have fun, and probably shoot well too.

Land Run had a mixture of target and size placement and I cannot find fault with one stage. I was very familiar with those targets too, as I painted every single one of them before the match!

Land Run was a huge success which means we put on what shooters wanted, I'm sure the SWRegional will be bigger, be interesting to see if you come to that Noz!

 

There ya have it folks......

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Sorry but this debate about increasing or decreasing numbers leaves me cold. My own observation is numbers have stayed about the same since I joined six years ago. A shoot rarely passes when I don't encounter somebody new.

 

I am not one who believes in the SASS will die when the baby boomers go under. The west and the cowboy are timeless. There is no other shooting sport that has the same connection to historic America as CAS. Gun lovers will always love the SAA, coach gun and the 73 because they are efficient tools, works of art and historical reminders all at once. Seriously do you have the same emotional connection to your Glock as you do your Ruger or your Colt?

 

I have met lots and lots of great people in SASS. Those people have become important to me. This last weekend I changed my regular travel plans to attend an annual when normally I would be in another city because I missed the people I knew would be there not just a handful, but all of them. We exchanged lies just like always. We welcomed new friends just like always. Next Saturday I will shoot at Powder Creek to satisfy my need for speed while I spend time with more people I care about. I am not alone. I bet lots and lots of you feel the same about your pards.

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Sounds great to hear lots of feelings going one way and then another with the size and placement of targets. Every one has there own opinion and have a voice to say what they want.

 

I have bee n involved with cowboy shooting for quite awhile and probably just your average shooter. Knowing also some fantastic youngsters in this plus old folks who really fire up the place. Some things I see happen is when some of the stages get quite a bit of movement from point a to b and onto c. Some folks get worn out fast. Some stages are set as thinkers where procedures are waiting to happen. (Mercy). When you look at problem stages lots of folks won't return and I have seen lots of folks go else where. My opinion is that if you set up stages where folks come and shoot and hear the bang and clang hitting those targets having fun doing so and end up with a big smile on there faces that's the spirit and the cowboy way and they will return.

 

Don't take me wrong in saying this cause I enjoy every stage I shoot and a variety of matches in various states.

 

Just think about it this way at least 20% - 30% of the shooters at a match are faster then all get out by 16's -20's seconds The rest are in there 20's and up into 30's and then some. Depends how the stages are set up again for time and distance.

 

Please don't get discouraged and stay involved.

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Most of the people I have seen stop shooting SASS have done so due to life changes. I don't think that target placement has much to do with anyone quitting completely. That said some may decide to shoot or not shoot at one club or another due to target type or placement. I came to the game for the shooting but I am not sure what I like best the people or the shooting. Target placement is of little concern to me.

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Lots of people start new hobbies and quit. For one reason or the other.

 

SASS is no different.

 

Have had many that I started and then after a little while stopped.

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I agree with you.
Being new to the sport I've tried to shoot as many different clubs as possible - one like you describe where the avg shooter did sub 30 sec, and the other extreme was very scenario based, some rifle targets at 50 yards - a good stage was under 60 sec. Lots of movment, holding things to start, etc as opposed to starting half the stages at port arms.

 

Now the other matches are all in between..and not memorable (sorry guys - not bad setups or matches, just dont' stand out in my mind).

I found the scenario based long shooting match to be a different kind of fun over the fast n close. I like the variety - all one or the other might get bored. Close and fast requires different skill set than hitting at 50 yards.

Might be nice to have BOTH in a single match..but I'm sure there's be a lot of complaining.

And yes, fast and close is the future - just observiing the attendence at eash style of shoot makes it obvious

 

 

 

I recently attended a large SASS match.

 

Now before you begin browbeating me I will say: It was an excellent match. The targets were good, the food was good, the organization was so good you just kinda slid through the match (over 300 shooters through 6 stages in a hair over 4 hours). The Props were good and the attitude of the host club was without reproach.

I had a good time, but then I always do.

 

The targets were very large and very close. The sequences were very simple and allowed the targets to be addressed with very little muzzle movement. There was some foot movement but it was on secure footing and very fast.

 

I think my dismay was that the targets were so close and the sequences so simple that hitting the targets was assumed. Only if you ran so fast that you were out of control did you risk a miss. Sight alignment was of no necessity.

 

We had many sub 15 second strings fired.

 

Do I want something fixed? No I don't think so because it think this is the future of SASS.

 

With my age, infirmities, weapon choices and shooting style that I choose I can never hope to be with in 15 seconds of the top shooters on my very best days. I know that. The age and infirmities I can't change but I could change style and weapons to be much more competitive but I don't wish to do so.

 

With rare super talented exceptions the winners are all going to be two hand-supported shooters, shooting light weight bullets out of

highly tuned 38s

 

I tried to go as fast as I could and did shoot some fast stages for me. Not any where close to the "good" shooters.

 

I came within a gun malfunction of shooting a clean match and I would have been pleased with that but I felt an overall sense of non-accomplishment. Kinda like kissing your sister: It tasted good, smelled good, she's sort of pretty but it doesn't mean a thing.

 

Maybe my lot in life is to attend smaller annual shoots that don't necessarily cater to the speed shooters. Again. I have nothing against said speed shooters and if I were 45 years younger I'd probably be trying to play with them.

 

So, and I'm sure you don't care, I will try staying a little closer to home and shoot with people more my capabilities. I may venture to some of the matches that I know will allow me to keep old friendships alive.

 

Again, I'm not in any way knocking anyones style of shooting and certainly not the matches them selves. I'm just saying It's not for me anymore.

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SASS isn't a cheap sport to enter, few have the gear to give it a try, like, say IDPA. To be competitive it's pretty common to spend money on gear making it even more challenging for some folks to play along.

 

What we do is very nostalgic - not modern - so that has more limited appeal to younger folks. Those in their 60s and up grew up with westerns on tv and in movies. Nobody under 25 has much reference to what we do, and I bet few under 40 do.

My son (age 14) and his friends all play first person shooter video games - they are not using lever guns and side by sides.

Go look at who's competing in 3 gun and patrol rifle and to a large extent IDPA - those under 40.

 

I think there will always be an appealing aspect to what we do - history, something different and challenging shooting wise, etc but it's not the 'new thing' on the block anymore so it's peak popularity has waned.

I just hope we don't become like bullseye shooting - it's long dead around here yet I know prolly 30+ guys at our club that used to shoot it regularly.

Maybe that is because many of the new shooters coming into the game are older? Older shooters are being replaced by shooters only a decade or two younger.

 

Over the past couple of years I have noticed an explosion of the numbers of silver senior and elder statesmen. I suspect the increase in silver seniors can't be attributed simply to seniors moving up. Many of the new silver seniors are new retirees looking for adventure. Those older new shooters naturally like the fast, close, big format because they are still learning the game and want to see rapid improvement. Big, fast and close works for the 65 year old who wants to have fun with his friends, but doesn't want to be reminded too much that he is getting older and can't do what he could do at 25.

 

As important as the 13 second kids are for the future of our game, the 65 year old new retiree is a more important source of immediate growth for SASS because eventually he brings his wife, adult children and grandkids.

 

In short I submit that SASS probably isn't in the terminal decline announced by folks pushing three gun or other shooting sports that will never be as attractive to older shooters as CAS.

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5 pages ...

 

Multiple posts with multiple paragraphs. From my vantage point, SASS/CAS is very much alive. Attendance at some clubs where I shoot is down, up at others. Keep shooting and promoting, the chips will fall where they may. A positive outlook will bring sunnier days than the wailing and gnashing of teeth.

 

CR

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Hi Folks,

 

The club I represent is one of those with much competition. Another match, about one hour's drive away, shoots the same day. A second match, also about one hour's drive away, shoots the next day. There are four other CAS clubs shooting at the same venue as the club I represent. Furthermore, the CA state match was last weekend, Yet, we had two posses. I found that really amazing and hopeful.

 

When I first started, the economy was doing well. The following is from http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/616566/United-States-in-1999. "The 20th century had become widely known as the American Century, and the United States ended it by implanting an exclamation point on that concept. Even while its national government was effectively mired in gridlock—perhaps because of it—the U.S. economy in 1999 roared ahead in a ninth consecutive year of vibrant expansion, its most enduring ever. U.S. leadership was recognized worldwide."

 

It is far from reasonable to compare SASS or any sport's growth to that period on a single issue. It's complicated and I have hope for our future.

 

Also, we have had a proliferation of clubs in my area since then. The venue I shoot most has five CAS clubs and one WBAS, in 1999 it had only one CAS club.

 

This has just been some rambling thoughts on my part...

 

Regards,

 

Allie

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Hi Folks,

 

The club I represent is one of those with much competition. Another match, about one hour's drive away, shoots the same day. A second match, also about one hour's drive away, shoots the next day. There are four other CAS clubs shooting at the same venue as the club I represent. Furthermore, the CA state match was last weekend, Yet, we had two posses. I found that really amazing and hopeful.

 

When I first started, the economy was doing well. The following is from http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/616566/United-States-in-1999. "The 20th century had become widely known as the American Century, and the United States ended it by implanting an exclamation point on that concept. Even while its national government was effectively mired in gridlock—perhaps because of it—the U.S. economy in 1999 roared ahead in a ninth consecutive year of vibrant expansion, its most enduring ever. U.S. leadership was recognized worldwide."

 

It is far from reasonable to compare SASS or any sport's growth to that period on a single issue. It's complicated and I have hope for our future.

 

Also, we have had a proliferation of clubs in my area since then. The venue I shoot most has five CAS clubs and one WBAS, in 1999 it had only one CAS club.

 

This has just been some rambling thoughts on my part...

 

Regards,

 

Allie

Way down south of you we are seeing clubs with great attendance. I was at a small club on Saturday and there were 33 shooters even though the state match took quite a few of our regulars away. We had a couple of new faces and at Cajon this coming Saturday there will probably be nearly 100 participants and there are always new folks there. From my saddle I think CAS is in pretty good shape. I don't really see what getting an actual SASS membership head count would accomplish. Closer, bigger targets brings in the crowds from what I see at the matches that I frequent. The clubs that don't cater to their customer with what they like are seeing the affects with dwindling attendance, at least that's what I'm seeing, YMMV.

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Whaaa whaaa whaaa thats the problem

Right there .

Come , shoot , have fun ,go home .

Its a game to have fun .

Stop all the damnd whining !

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Whaaa whaaa whaaa thats the problem

Right there .

Come , shoot , have fun ,go home .

Its a game to have fun .

Stop all the damnd whining !

One word for you. Chronicle. We all have an opinion about something. Voicing it ONCE is not whining. Going on about it over and over is. Just my opinion.
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Gosh…I haven't been around for a while…glad to see some things never change! LOL!

 

Like Brother King, I've been shooting less cowboy and more 3-Gun and Precision Rifle. A 10-inch plate at 800 yards will help you redefine what is hard shooting. Also spent some time on a Project Appleseed event and picked up my second "Rifleman" patch. Guess I'm saying the shooting sports are amazingly broad. When I feel burned out on one aspect of the sport, I shift my focus. I learn something every time I pull the trigger.

 

I suspect I'll drift back to cowboy in the fall. I miss my friends.

 

If I may borrow a quote from Ms. Mo's favorite author, "Specialization is for insects."

 

Speaking of which…Allie, Griz, so many others, thanks for your wonderful thoughts on my birthday yesterday. Honestly, you guys made me cry. There goes the ole reputation.

 

And Allie Mo, you should meet my Manx, Asta. He rocks.

 

Wolf Bane

SASS13557

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Gosh…I haven't been around for a while…glad to see some things never change! LOL!

 

Like Brother King, I've been shooting less cowboy and more 3-Gun and Precision Rifle. A 10-inch plate at 800 yards will help you redefine what is hard shooting. Also spent some time on a Project Appleseed event and picked up my second "Rifleman" patch. Guess I'm saying the shooting sports are amazingly broad. When I feel burned out on one aspect of the sport, I shift my focus. I learn something every time I pull the trigger.

 

I suspect I'll drift back to cowboy in the fall. I miss my friends.

 

If I may borrow a quote from Ms. Mo's favorite author, "Specialization is for insects."

 

Speaking of which…Allie, Griz, so many others, thanks for your wonderful thoughts on my birthday yesterday. Honestly, you guys made me cry. There goes the ole reputation.

 

And Allie Mo, you should meet my Manx, Asta. He rocks.

 

Wolf Bane

SASS13557

Like you I dabble in a lot of different shooting sports......but like you said SASS seems to be the only one that I miss the people as much as the shooting. The other sports are fun but the atmosphere is definitely not the same.

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Like you I dabble in a lot of different shooting sports......but like you said SASS seems to be the only one that I miss the people as much as the shooting. The other sports are fun but the atmosphere is definitely not the same.

If you are looking for a shooting sport that is very sociable then you might want to try Skeet. There is banter between shooters and stations along with a general bull session in the club house after and between rounds. But if you are looking for a sociable game stay away from Trap. In Trap everyone is in there own little universe when shooting.

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We had 2 new shooters in the last week at ONE of the clubs I shoot at and they were all well into their 50's! Just sayin'……. :)

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There is diversity in matches out there.

Research a match before going.

Personally, I enjoy shooting a mixture of close AND far....large AND small...and I like a bit of thinking.

I did not take Nozs' post as a negative....he is just stateing opinion.

How boreing if ALL SASS matches were set up the same way, all the time?

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There is diversity in matches out there.

Research a match before going.

Personally, I enjoy shooting a mixture of close AND far....large AND small...and I like a bit of thinking.

I did not take Nozs' post as a negative....he is just stateing opinion.

How boreing if ALL SASS matches were set up the same way, all the time?

There ya' go!!

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Maybe I am just lucky.I really don't know what the good old days were in SASS.I get to shoot two clubs that have the Texas Star,Swingers ,sliders big and close and some far and small.Lots of KDs for pistols,rifles and shotguns.Have KDs with clays and soda cans for shotguns.Get to shoot in a 3" pipe to wave a flag.Get to move a lot. No stand and shoot 10-10and 4.We have shoot a bow in a stage,shoot a balloon in a stage with a derringer to start the rest of the stage.Shoot holes in paper with our shotguns to make a hole big so we could shoot our pistols fhought the hole.I could not ask for more,great friends,great stages and after the shoot great talking and great food.It can't get any better for me.Maybe I just started too late to see the good old days but these are the good old days for me.Thanks very much to the people at Orange and Lake Charles for making my shooting the good old days.

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I'm not clairvoyant. The only facts I have to evaluate are what happened in the past and what is happening now. I go to a fair number of shoots and have never been surrounded by an angry mob screaming "these targets and too big and close and I'm not getting enough misses and P's!!!" I have heard such protestations about small and far. The market determines what people want and matches and clubs that follow market trends and pay attention to shooter feedback are doing just fine.

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No doubt that the game has changed in a number of ways. Whether it's good or bad depends upon your point of view. I used to get a bit up in the air over the huge and very close targets... also the light loads. But......... I got use to it, and it's not near as bad as I once thought it was.... different, you betcha. But many folks like it that way, so what ever it takes to make the masses happy is the way of the present, and the future. There are some matches that don't adhere to this new trend in CAS, and some matches that meet somewhere in the middle. Some clubs play games with their match, and some simply shoot. If you like to play the game in a more or less "Old Style" CAS, then look around for a club that likes to do it that way, and attend their matches. I have made an effort to go with the flow, and my enjoyment of the game has started moving back up again. Getting locked into a "My way or the Hiway" mind set just wears you down.

 

Snakebite

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Might be nice to have BOTH in a single match..but I'm sure there's be a lot of complaining.

 

Howdy Cow Chip, not that hard to do if the club has the space, targets and manpower...................I learned about the Sharpshooter category from another 9 page thread last year. Appears there are some clubs on the other side of the Big Muddy doing it. We first tried it at the Mad Madd Mike Christmas Match last year, been doing it ever since. We either put out another (further out) set of rifle targets, or have a further back starting position for the rifle. Sharpshooters shoot the distant rifle targets, then move to our regular (big & close) rifle targets and shoot them with their pistols. We all shoot the same shotgun targets.............then we go eat :D or Chuckwagon Bill cooks us a dutch oven lunch ;) Usually our Wild Bunch match is the following day (Sunday) so we leave everything out, move a few things around and rewrite the stages............then we go eat :D Good Luck :)

 

Jefro :ph34r: Relax-Enjoy

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