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I'm afraid I have seen the future of SASS and I'm very unsure whether I like it or not.


Noz

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There are some great advantages to big, simple and close. First, the posse moves through the stage faster than a small, complicated and far stage. At a big match it is important that the match move quickly. Second, as has been alluded to already, most shooters at a big match aren't really in the money for a trophy. At best they are competing against themselves or a few others they know in their category. If you have 331 shooters in a match and only one top winner, that means 330 aren't going to win. Probably 320 of those shooters don't have a chance going in, and know it. Sponsors of big shoots want everybody to have a chance to feel good about themselves. A shoot that is relatively easy to shoot clean is a good way to make a lot of people happy. Finally, for me at least fast is just fun. If you are an old guy like me a 23 second stage is a thrill even it the speed burners do it in 18 seconds. A lot of people are attracted to matches that advertise big, close and fast stages. That means big matches are going to naturally favor big, simple and close.

 

Monthly club matches aren't under any such constraints. If your club wants small, slow and far, you should go for it so long as the members want small, slow and far. What happens is people go to the big shoots and have fun shooting large, close and fast. They discover they enjoy the need for speed and wonder why they can't do it at home. They also begin to look on monthly home club matches as practice for the bigger matches. A couple of years ago I was told I made a mistake by going to a local annual that featured far, small and complicated stages the week before our state match that featured fast, close and near stages. All of that means pressure on the local match director to move the targets in and simplify the stages.

 

You are probably right, you have seen the present and future of SASS.

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I don't expect to win. I don't really expect to scare those who do win into looking over their shoulder for me gaining on them. I do expect to get better, to learn more, to compete against myself, and to have fun. I'm an introvert, so when I choose to hang around people, I want them to be people I WANT to hang around with. So far, the SASS shooters fit that bill particularly well, even the fast and famous ones.

 

This perfectly explains how my family feels about the sport.

 

Until I experienced my first cowboy shoot, I hadn't found a group of people I cared to be associated with in my leisure time. It's not about winning - heck it ain't even about the stage times. It's just about being around great people and shooting guns.

 

The rest is gravy.

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I don't understand...

What are you saying?

What would a "Good" looking future for SASS look like to you?

Phantom

Exit of Wild Bunch, return of Traditional and Modern :ph34r::wacko::o:P

-Shifty

 

Moving backwards is seldom considered progressing. Wild Bunch is no detractor from cowboy action... either in number of shooters or venues, before WB, I had 3 1911s, now I have 7, I had zero 1987s, nor any interest in having one... now I have 3! My WB rifle is not generally one I use for cowboy action... WB was another very good excuse to buy more leather, guns, and change up my reloading! I know one individual that likes to say, (if I can quote him properly), "... WB is what cowboy shooting used to be like..." I believe I understand exactly what he's saying... for him, that means it's FUN. I've had folks that no longer shoot cowboy tell me, "...Griff, you won't like it... it's just all about speed anymore..." I hate to burst anyone's bubble, but it was all about speed ever since they started timing the matches! At least now they use electronic timers... back when they used stop watches there was all kinds of complaints of hijinks with the starting & stopping of said stopwatch!

 

When I started there were THREE clubs holding cowboy action shooting matches. Nationally... Now, some areas have that many, and MORE in a 100 mile radius.

 

Heck, if one thinks the targets are too close, too big... challenge yourself... shoot for the head of the buffalo insteada that big ol' body... shoot for the corners of the target! Hit the horns on those buffalo heads... Trust me... there are few impacts out there on the edges for yours to go unseen!

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Noz, I have a suggestion or two for you.

 

1) Don’t stop going to big matches. Instead when you go (and you better go or else I won’t get to see you) play this character: His name is Noz. He loves people and people love him. He shoots Frontiersman, smokes up the place something terrible with nasty, stinky, smoke that challenges spotters to pay close attention. When the smoke clears, there he stands with a big grin on his face.

2) When you shoot, shoot faster. Try to take two to four seconds off the stage. If you don’t think using sights are necessary, then blaze away. At the end of the match instead of feeling as if you’ve accomplished nothing, you’ll be kicking your behind for missing some of those friggin’ huge, in-your-face, targets.

Shoot it like you’re like the good guy in the saloon ambushed by a gang of outlaws; you’ll get most of ‘em, some might get away, but sometimes one of the runners is gonna shoot you. You’ll be lying on the floor, guns empty, smoke still weeping from the barrels while we pour whiskey into you and holler, “Somebody get the doc! Noz is shot!”

 

I know that you remember our conversation from a few years back talking about speed being relative and how even a really slow shooter that shoots a bit faster feels like they’ve just taken a ride on a rocket. What did the snail say when he took a ride on a turtle’s back? Wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!

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Only thing better than close and big targets is lots of movement. That's what the new guys I've been bringing to the shoots like. We had a stand and deliver stage and they looked at me with a befuddled look. Our range has big wide berms and I take advantage of that when writing scenarios. I get alot more praise than complaints.

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So, I guess we should expect challenging targets in Cassville this weekend??!!

You betcha. The banditos are coming out.

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I've had a bit of an epiphany this afternoon and I think I can answer my own questions. I will try to organize thoughts a bit and maybe present my solution to MY problem this weekend.

 

 

One thing I must address is the "shrinking SASS", a myth as told by other diciplines that are losing their shooters to us. In southwest Missouri, never noted as having been a hotbed of shooting sports we have The Ozark Posse, Southern Missouri Rangers, Shoal Creek shooters, Bear Creek Volunteers, Butterfield club, West Plains Waddies (now under a different name) and COWS all within a couple of hours. This does not count the several Arkansas clubs and Oklahoma clubs that are easily reachable. If anything we are getting too many. So many you can't visit them all regularly.

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This is a very touchy subject to talk about especially for an outsider So please go easy on me. I have watched SASS grow and then level off and now start the slow decline. I shoot IDPA and IPSC and thougt about joinining SASS a few years ago I attended many matches around the country and saw the slow change to big close and simple set ups to giving awards to anyone breathing all with good intent. as to SASS growing is it really?? the numbers do not support that thought 102,000 that number is only the total memberships that have been sold since they started. clubs are closing all over the country SASS did away with the paper to save money ,The vendors are dropping like flies and still, many on the wire seem to overlook the writting on the wall .I do not have a solution that anyone would want to hear . But I read a few posts a few years ago by a Texas Jack Black who predicted this and he was attacked every time he warned of this.

 

Just what I see from a non member

 

I haven't seen one club close out here in Southern California. Attendance is down at a couple of clubs, one I mentioned above and another one is going through some changes but I see better days ahead for it. Attributing clubs closing to the doing away with the paper is a stretch, IMHO. Three of the clubs that I shoot with on a monthly basis are growing and always seem to have a few new faces at each match. One club in particular has had to have a waiting list for sign ups because it has become so popular. When I first started shooting there they rarely had 20 shooters now nearly fifty are there for every match.

 

Tess maybe you should get more involved in the local clubs and you might have a different outlook.

 

TESS

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Moving backwards is seldom considered progressing. Wild Bunch is no detractor from cowboy action... either in number of shooters or venues, before WB, I had 3 1911s, now I have 7, I had zero 1987s, nor any interest in having one... now I have 3! My WB rifle is not generally one I use for cowboy action... WB was another very good excuse to buy more leather, guns, and change up my reloading! I know one individual that likes to say, (if I can quote him properly), "... WB is what cowboy shooting used to be like..." I believe I understand exactly what he's saying... for him, that means it's FUN. I've had folks that no longer shoot cowboy tell me, "...Griff, you won't like it... it's just all about speed anymore..." I hate to burst anyone's bubble, but it was all about speed ever since they started timing the matches! At least now they use electronic timers... back when they used stop watches there was all kinds of complaints of hijinks with the starting & stopping of said stopwatch!

 

When I started there were THREE clubs holding cowboy action shooting matches. Nationally... Now, some areas have that many, and MORE in a 100 mile radius.

 

Heck, if one thinks the targets are too close, too big... challenge yourself... shoot for the head of the buffalo insteada that big ol' body... shoot for the corners of the target! Hit the horns on those buffalo heads... Trust me... there are few impacts out there on the edges for yours to go unseen!

Completely understand where you are coming from. I personally am just day dreaming about what SASS was like when I first started, and at that time there was two shows dedicated to Cowboy Action Shooting airing weekly, that is how I got sucked into the sport. Now we might have one or two episodes of other shooting programs focus on CAS every season/year. I may just be spit balling, but that seems like the sport doesn't grab at people the way it used to, if it did both shows would still be on the air. Like I said, I joined SASS in its prime where 10,000 new members a year was happening, so whatever they were doing at that time seems to have been working. Now Wild Bunch, I thought was a great idea, I still do as it was originally laid out as a side match, but I also question if having full fledged Wild Bunch matches is helping or hurting the bottom line. I don't know, I don't pretend to, I just question it. The main part of my comment was in regards to Traditional and Modern, the replacement of which I have been against since the beginning and I will give you a little background why. When it was first implemented, I fit into the Cowboy category, I still do, and I will for the next 8 years. This exact same scenario also applies to my wife. Now you might be wondering why I would be against that change. At the time of the change to all age based categories, there was also a big push to require more shooters in a category at state and higher matches to recognize said category. At that time my local club was hosting the Northwest Regional, and my wife was the only female shooter at the match that fell into the 17-35 age range. Luckily we had other shooters that entered into the Cowgirl category that could have put themselves in other age based categories so there was never an issue. That being said, it still left a bad taste in the mouth. So I agree with you in the sense that I don't think we should be taking steps backwards, but in my opinion we have been doing things that are just that. From what I understand Traditional and Modern were the two original categories in SASS, so be getting rid of them we essentially got rid of the roots of where this game started.

 

In reality, nothing to do with what I think are problems is going to change in the near future, the problems of one shooter are inconsequential in the bigger picture. My original comment was more in jest, an inside joke that I thought Phantom would get a chuckle out of. Is SASS currently in decline, one could say yes in the same sense that they might say silver prices are in decline. We do not have the same membership numbers coming in that we did around 8-10 years ago, by definition it means that it has declined some what. Not enough to get worried or even enough to try and lay blame on a particular reason. It is category changes, ammo prices, the economy in general, targets starting to be too close, etc, etc, etc. Have things changed enough to cause a decrease in shooter population at matches, yes, are we going to figure it out and solve it on the wire, probably not. But you are right Griff, it is entirely about the game being fun and trying to minimalize the aspects that shooters would see as lacking such.

 

Alright, rant over. What were we talking about again? OH YEAH, did you guys see how my Seahawks gave away the Super Bowl??? Still crying myself to sleep about that :lol:

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Noz, you are getting older and the competitive movement of cowboy shooting is to shorter targets and sub 15" times and you feel a little left behind. You are shooting in the bottom 3rd. How am I doing?

 

Slim! Knowing Noz like I do, I'd say you're about as far from the mark as you could imagine. He shoots Frontiersman. He shoots to make himself happy and for the challenge of shooting a good match. Yeah! He's competitive, but he's also well aware of his capabilities. If my previous post doesn't reflect much of what he's feeling I'll be somewhat surprised. Frankly, a lot of us get a little bored with the constant 10/ 10/ 4 stage after stage. All big and all close make it a dull match for me. I really dig seeing Bud and Tater and Sidekick and other young guns shooting the 15 second stages and flying down range to the next shooting position. I can still on occasion run a 20 second stage myself even if I haven't practiced at all in three or four years and even though being that competitive is now no longer anywhere near a priority for me. I shoot to enjoy myself and to hook up with old friends and meet new ones now. I may decide to get competitive again one day, but I may not. There was a line in a movie some years back I'll paraphrase. You can shoot me. You can slap me. You can cuss me. Just don't bore me!

 

I go to matches now that I know won't bore me. I go to matches that will have something for everybody. I'm looking forward to Schoolmarm retiring next year so's I can go to some places I ain't been to and shoot with some folks I ain't shot with before.

 

As for shooting in the bottom half or bottom third, that has nothing to do with matches becoming more and more VANILLA!

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As far as SASS getting smaller. IT HAD TO.

 

NO shooting sport could keep up with the growth it had at one point.

It HAD to level off at some point. Then HAD to go back the other way some. As at one point the growth was

so big, and so fast there was no way it could keep that up. No sport could.

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It has to ! Get smaller.

 

Average age of the shooters continually to rise. Meaning not enough young people are replacing the older ones.

Maybe that is because many of the new shooters coming into the game are older? Older shooters are being replaced by shooters only a decade or two younger.

 

Over the past couple of years I have noticed an explosion of the numbers of silver senior and elder statesmen. I suspect the increase in silver seniors can't be attributed simply to seniors moving up. Many of the new silver seniors are new retirees looking for adventure. Those older new shooters naturally like the fast, close, big format because they are still learning the game and want to see rapid improvement. Big, fast and close works for the 65 year old who wants to have fun with his friends, but doesn't want to be reminded too much that he is getting older and can't do what he could do at 25.

 

As important as the 13 second kids are for the future of our game, the 65 year old new retiree is a more important source of immediate growth for SASS because eventually he brings his wife, adult children and grandkids.

 

In short I submit that SASS probably isn't in the terminal decline announced by folks pushing three gun or other shooting sports that will never be as attractive to older shooters as CAS.

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Maybe that is because many of the new shooters coming into the game are older? Older shooters are being replaced by shooters only a decade or two younger.

 

Over the past couple of years I have noticed an explosion of the numbers of silver senior and elder statesmen. I suspect the increase in silver seniors can't be attributed simply to seniors moving up. Many of the new silver seniors are new retirees looking for adventure. Those older new shooters naturally like the fast, close, big format because they are still learning the game and want to see rapid improvement. Big, fast and close works for the 65 year old who wants to have fun with his friends, but doesn't want to be reminded too much that he is getting older and can't do what he could do at 25.

 

As important as the 13 second kids are for the future of our game, the 65 year old new retiree is a more important source of immediate growth for SASS because eventually he brings his wife, adult children and grandkids.

 

In short I submit that SASS probably isn't in the terminal decline announced by folks pushing three gun or other shooting sports that will never be as attractive to older shooters as CAS.

Right on Bart, I keep hearing about new young shooters needed to keep our sport going I say wait a sec…..Most of the "New" shooters I see are older, maybe 40 and above who have been shooting, hunting etc. and are attracted to our sport for the obvious reasons. ;)

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Our youngest shooters is 22 and a sophomore in collage. He's been shooting for some time - I guess brought into the sport by his parents who no longer shoot. He only makes it to a couple of matches a year. He plays tennis in school and often has a tournament that conflicts with the shooting match. I've talked to him about trying to introduce CAS to his friends. Well, he kind of gives me the impression he avoids telling his friends about the activity.

 

Economy may have some effects on participation. We run our own business and we noticed a downturn in business with people that are still employed. We continued to do business as usual with people that are retired or on permanent disability. And oddly, people on unemployment. The price increase for powder, primers, brass and fuel to get to matches has risen. So a working family on a tight budget may not choose to spend their money on a shooting sport.

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We see a few youngsters, usually shooting with their parents and grandparents. One family I shoot with in Norco has 4 kids and they're all shooting now and it's a pleasure to see. Most of the new shooters we see are in their late 40's and early 50's and that's good. They probably have the funds to get into it and keep with it now that the kids have left home and they have extra time to get involved in CAS.

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The most popular event at my club is Speed Steel, aka Steel Challenge. It is a simple one gun event that can be shot with any handgun or any pistol caliber long gun. Lots of younger shooters. Basically, it is a show up and shoot event. A suitable gun and a couple of boxes of ammo is all that is required.

 

Three gun has a small but loyal following. I have talked to people who have dropped out of three gun because of the cost of ammo and the expense of the equipment to be competitive.

 

Cowboy seems to be slowly growing in attendance. Kansan, and clan, put on a good shoot that is relaxed and fun. I think the word has gotten out and we are getting a lot of visitors. Hopefully, this translates into new shooters.

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Hi Folks,

 

Check out the newest Chronicle. It lists new members by state and their SASS numbers. We are over 102,500 now. http://www.mirabelsmagazinecentral.com/digitaledition/index.html?id=7715ee28-cbcb-4472-bed2-c7a0d7e23cfa

 

Before I would make any claims about growth, I would want to know the number of new members by year since the beginning or as far back as records exist. .

 

Regards,

 

Allie

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What's harder to get numbers on is how many SASS is loosing. Our fist match this spring had maybe 6 no shows that had been regulars. A few already relied on power wheel chairs or UTVs to get from parking lot to stages and between stages. I suspect they will stay SASS members but I don't expect they will be active.

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Hi Folks,

 

Check out the newest Chronicle. It lists new members by state and their SASS numbers. We are over 102,500 now. http://www.mirabelsmagazinecentral.com/digitaledition/index.html?id=7715ee28-cbcb-4472-bed2-c7a0d7e23cfa

 

Before I would make any claims about growth, I would want to know the number of new members by year since the beginning or as far back as records exist. .

 

Regards,

 

Allie

 

Allie,

 

I joined in May 2004. I am SASS 59054.

 

does this help any.

 

 

..........Widder

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HI Widder,

 

My math is rusty; but, I will try to get some rough figures.

 

I joined in May 1999 and am 25217. So, in the 17 years from 1982 to 1999, that is roughly 25217/17 = 1483 members per year.

You joined in 2004. So in the 5 years from 1999 to 2004, that is roughly (59054-25217)/5 = 6768 per year

In the 11 years between 2015 and 2004, that is roughly (102,500-59054)/11 = 3950 per year.

 

There were, according to the Chronicle, 218 new members in April 2015, that is roughly 2616 per year, if that number is consistent for the entire year.

 

Before saying SASS is on the decline in new members and blaming SASS for its own decline, one would need to factor in shortages in ammo-making supplies and the condition of the economy. Also, according to the news there has been an increase in the sale of self-defense and modern guns, which is good for our 2A fight yet turns attention away from old guns. Growth or decline is so much more than a one-dimensional number.

 

Also, from the numbers without considering other complex factors, we are not necessarily on the decline. This little exercise shows growth until 2004 and possibly a leveling-off now.

 

Regards,

 

Allie :ph34r:

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The count of active members is what is needed.

 

That probably isn't possible to work out. Just agreeing on a definition of activity ain't in the cards.

 

The interpretation that SASS is growing because your club has better turnout is as weak an argument as SASS is drying up because the last couple of matches had one fewer posse.

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From the, for what it is worth department of my brain...

 

I have shot competitively in other disiplines in the past, practicle pistol and three gun. I have shot with the players who seek only to win. They tune and tweek thier guns in such a manner that they appear to be shooting a fully auto 1911 pistol. They are good for the sport, they train hard, spend lots and display a high level of personal skill and self disipline. I chose to not compete in that manner any more.

 

My family goes back deep in western history and I truly enjoy CAS, the guns, the clothing and above all the overall atmosphere of friendship and fellowship. I go for the people and the shooting. Not the winning, not the prizes but the fun associated with the people. It seems to me that the overall population of shooters is aging, speaking for me I am not as fast as I'd like to be. Mainly due to beat up hands, but I shoot and enjoy every day out. I like .45 rounds loaded with BP and big bullets, I don't like puny rounds. Its my choice, my game and I enjoy it.

 

The future is changing, but I choose to do it my way, have fun and influence the direction of change whenever I can. Just thinking out loud and looking forward to CAS for the years to come.

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I too attended the same match you are speaking of. I can't heap enough praise on the folks that worked so hard to make it happen. I am wondering if 6.5 hours of driving is worth it to me. I am an Elder statesman, At some point in your life you have to prioritize how much it's worth to do something.

 

For those that haven't attended this event, by all means go.

 

Now if someone would pick me up in their motor home and attend to my comatose body right up to and after the shoot, I could be persuaded to go again :D

 

The folks in this sport are great.

 

Best wishes to all.

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Whenever I have seen a supposedly accurate number of current dues paid or life members, the number has been in the 32,000 to no higher than 35,000 range. I'm sure there are shooters who never become members or get their badge and don't stay current with their payment and just shoot locally. Smoking Gator

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Sass must have the numbers on the current members , they do send in renewals . It would be interesting to see how many "Actual" members still exists . While the number of 102,000 sounds good it's not correct 😞, people have passed away and others have stopped CAS all together. If I had to guess I'd say in the neighbor hood of 40,000 are still active.

 

Just my thoughts,

Slick

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On March 6, 2014, Misty Moonshine said there were 32,845 active members, 7,581 Life members. I don't know if the 7581 was included in the 32845, or in addition to it.

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On March 6, 2014, Misty Moonshine said there were 32,845 active members, 7,581 Life members. I don't know if the 7581 was included in the 32845, or in addition to it.

 

A chart of # of paid up members by year since day one would work.

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The whole thing of "What's the future of the game?" seems to me to be pretty simple, but if we're not careful we find ourselves looking for something beyond the obvious. The "thing" that most everyone playing the game has in common is we grew up watching westerns on TV and at the movies when the large majority of popular shows on TV were.............you guessed it, westerns. Since this era came to an end in the late 60s and early 70s, anyone born in the mid 70s or later is unlikely to come to the game except via a parent or grandparent. The majority of those will lose interest when they get dating/driving age.

 

The game will die in time and I hate it. With that said, it doesn't have to draw its last breath in the near future. In my opinion marketing should be directed not at the young (love 'em all!), but at the people out there like us (typically 45 up) who still like the concept of playing cowboy yet have no clue the game exists and how readily available it is practically anywhere in the U.S. and in some other countries.

 

Do we have staying power? Yes. Star Trek and Star Wars might have their freaks and sell a bunch of merchandise, but those shows or Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles or a Power Rangers will NEVER have the effect on the world that westerns have had. We ain't dead yet!

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